Retreat inside cities (Full Version)

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Soapy Frog -> Retreat inside cities (1/18/2008 5:02:38 PM)

Can we get this rule added back in please?

Even if it's in the form of a pre-selected choice (like chits for minor battles). It is important to be able to do this at the moment of combat.

For example if I have 7 corps under Napoleon, and I get attacked, I should have the option to retreat one corps into the city to optimize my tactical factors. This is just one example of the rule in action there are several others.

In a related note, the rulebook clearly states that corps must stop moving if they move into an area with unbeseiged enemy corps (implying that there is no relevance whether they are in the city or not). I don't think this is being done properly, as my corps can run right past enemy corps which are inside cities, but unbesieged.



zaquex -> RE: Retreat inside cities (1/18/2008 5:11:48 PM)

I think EiA never treated a corp as inside a city unless it retreated before combat this caused some problems/discussions about port defences etc therefore I think this EIANW choosed another way to implement it. To me it makes no sense that a corp inside a city can stop any movement.



Soapy Frog -> RE: Retreat inside cities (1/18/2008 5:37:42 PM)

Well I agree insofar as the whole moving into and out of the city should be ditched (a corps should only be IN a city when it's beseiged, as per EiA)... but not having unbesieged enemy corps able to block enemy movement and then retreat inside the city in the combat phase is a MAJOR change in game mechanics.

To restore this with the EiANW setup, unbesieged corps inside or outside cities should stop movement; it's in the game manual anyway!!!



carnifex -> RE: Retreat inside cities (1/18/2008 6:23:11 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Soapy Frog

Can we get this rule added back in please?

Even if it's in the form of a pre-selected choice (like chits for minor battles). It is important to be able to do this at the moment of combat.

For example if I have 7 corps under Napoleon, and I get attacked, I should have the option to retreat one corps into the city to optimize my tactical factors. This is just one example of the rule in action there are several others.


Not sure I understand about adding this rule "back in". Back from where? In the boardgame you didn't get to decide where your corps were when attacked. They were wherever you placed them during your own Land Movement Phase.

quote:


In a related note, the rulebook clearly states that corps must stop moving if they move into an area with unbeseiged enemy corps (implying that there is no relevance whether they are in the city or not). I don't think this is being done properly, as my corps can run right past enemy corps which are inside cities, but unbesieged.


It's being done properly as far as the mechanics are concerned, it's just that the EIANW rulebook fails to include the following text from the original game: "If enemy corps and/or garrison factors are in a city the phasing corps may continue movement or stop movement and besiege or not, as the owning player desires."

quote:

a corps should only be IN a city when it's beseiged, as per EiA


I smell a House Rule :)



Soapy Frog -> RE: Retreat inside cities (1/18/2008 7:35:34 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: carnifex
Not sure I understand about adding this rule "back in". Back from where? In the boardgame you didn't get to decide where your corps were when attacked. They were wherever you placed them during your own Land Movement Phase.

Back in from the orginal rules of the game. In EiA I have the option to retreat all or some (such as will fit) of my corps into the area's city if I am attacked. Hopefully this answers your question; I can of course quote chapter and verse if needed.
quote:


It's being done properly as far as the mechanics are concerned, it's just that the EIANW rulebook fails to include the following text from the original game: "If enemy corps and/or garrison factors are in a city the phasing corps may continue movement or stop movement and besiege or not, as the owning player desires."

This is not part of the rules. The rules simply state (and the game manual too actually) that if there are unbesieged enemy corps present, then you must stop moving; there is no specification about whether they are in the city or not. The text you are quoting does NOT modify that!



carnifex -> RE: Retreat inside cities (1/18/2008 8:51:20 PM)

I wasn't referring to defender retirement - I misunderstood what you wrote - I thought you wanted to select where your corps was upon enemy entry into your territory, not after an attack was declared. You are correct - after an attack is declared it would be nice to be able to retire.

quote:

This is not part of the rules.


I assure you it is.

Edit: 7.3.7 Moving Into Combat



Soapy Frog -> RE: Retreat inside cities (1/18/2008 9:36:26 PM)

Ah yes I see your point, and yet if I have the option to retreat into the city in the combat step, it would make no sense to be inside the city, unless beseiged.

In EiA you could make that decision in the combat step, in EiANW you have to decide it in YOUR movement step which changes things quite drastically; particularly without 5:1 trivial battles.

So in EiANW my 1-factor corps can be jumped by a force 10 times it's size and crushed without having the chance to retreat into the city, AND I will lose a PP for it. Equally the problem of wanting to retreat a portion of your forces into the city before a field battle.

I think you will agree that whatever your interpretation of corps movement and 7.3.7, this is a rule that needs to be implemented.



Bearcat2 -> RE: Retreat inside cities (1/18/2008 10:58:44 PM)

The original rule 7.4.14 1983ed Retreat after combat
"The loser is retreated one area by the victor.This occurs after pursuit [if any]. Allretreats must be into a land area closer to the nearest depot of any nationality in that force, or if none towards that force's nearest national capital. A retreating force may not be split up. If the area retreated to contains an unbesieged enemy corps, Cossack or depot garrison, the force retreats one more area. Retreat across a crossinf arrow or onto ships is not permitted. A force may not retreat into the same area twice in the same retreat. The force surrenders if no retreat route is available. If, as a result of combat or the transfer of factors, a corp is left without factors, it is removed and must be repurchased during an Economic Inter-turn phase before it may be used again."

There was no option to retreat part of a force into a city after combat

Rule 7.4.1"Any forces upon whom an attack is declared may retire into any friendly city controlled or vacant, and unbesieged city in that area but not so to exceed that city's garrison capacity,"

Any unit not able to go into the city had to stay and fight.



Soapy Frog -> RE: Retreat inside cities (1/19/2008 12:20:49 AM)

Yes Termite2, that is correct. I don't think anyone is disputing (or anyone had even mentioned) what happens AFTER combat since it's not relevant to this thread, anyway.

And for 7.4.1 which IS part of the relvant rules, you don't have the option to go itno the city before combat if you are able, in EiANW.



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