HEAT ammo out of whack!? (Full Version)

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Svennemir -> HEAT ammo out of whack!? (4/3/2002 7:00:14 AM)

I have posted something about this before, but someone encouraged me to try again.

Some British "Churchill" tanks have 95mm L22 gun. Those are meant for infantry support, apparently.

It just happens so that their 95mm gun has a HEAT penetration rating of 127mm.

This means, these will generally achieve penetration at ANY range against Tiger hull (for instance).

The tank has twelve of these rounds. Range 40 hexes.

Another example is the German StuH42. This one has a pen rating of 105mm. It has six rounds. It normally penetrates a T-34 at first try. Even T-34/85 turret won't withstand these. Once again, range is 40 hexes.

This is much better than the long-barreled 75mm guns.

And the StuH42s are cheap: only 70 points.

I'm sure there are several other cases, it's just a matter of digging them out.

Note: this is nothing new in v7.1.

The general question is: aren't these units meant for infantry combat? Why are they some of the most efficient tank destroyers?



Rune Iversen -> Dav du (4/3/2002 7:23:37 AM)

Hej, altid rart at se andre danskere på disse kanter, der deler ens hobby. Jeg vil besvare dit spørgsmål på engelsk, så alle de andre også kan følge med:)

The Churchill 95mm and the StuH 42 105mm wasn´t infantry support tanks per se, but rather anti-infantry support tanks, dedicated to supporting the Stug 75mm and regular Churchill 6lb./75mm vehicles against enemy infantry.

The HEAT rounds these vehicles carry is for self-defence, because they are not supposed to tackle enemy armor, that is left to the regular tanks, while these vehicles keep enmy infantry at bay.
Notice that both vehicles carry quite a low number of HEAT rounds in comparison to HE rounds.

As for the effectiveness, well i suppose that anybody hit by a low speed 95/105 mm shaped charge is gonna´ be hurtin´ pretty bad
:D . Make no mistake, these guns can be effective tankbusters, but normally only as a last resort due to the low number of HEAT rounds against arnor.


Det er altid rart at møde andre danskere, så indtil videre:

HYG:cool:



tracer -> (4/3/2002 7:32:00 AM)

Plus, their accuracy is lower than their AP firing brothers.



zaxilon -> Another point? (4/3/2002 7:36:34 AM)

I tend to agree with Rune, and.... They have to score a hit at that range also. Lets see, 40 hexes is about 2000 yards right? That is a long ways to score a hit unless you have perfect conditions. I dont recall the targeting systems on either of the vehicls you brought up as being spectacular.

Of course these technical aspects tend to reinforce why they were used in a "Support" role.

Later,
Zaxilon :D



Charles2222 -> (4/3/2002 7:47:53 AM)

Svennemir: HEAT doesn't go out to 40 hexes that I've ever seen. I think HEAT and APCR are usually between 10-20 hexes max. It's the HE round off of SU152s, and such, that can easily sting it's with it's full penetration at maximum range. Actually the StuH42 may not be stinging T34s with HEAT or APCR, but with regular HE rating of 84. Unless I'm mistaken, I believe when an HE round strikes, the slope of the area hit is pretty much nulled, but be that true or not, an 84 is plenty to penetrate them especially if it's somewhere other than the front hull.



Goblin -> (4/3/2002 8:01:08 AM)

Charles,

Did quick check, the StuH42 heat penetration is 105 out to 40 hexes. Its HE penetration is 37 and its AP is 84. I know it doesn't carry any, but they give the penetrations for the [I]gun[/I] , not the vehicle. Take a peek at the unit info screen or encyclopedia to double check me. That HEAT pen is constant out to max range.( the unit info screen during play displays penetrations at different range bands for every different round a gun can use, even if not carried.)

Svennemir,

Take a peek at fire rates. You will see that the fire support tanks pack a punch, but not often! A main battle tank would tear them up on rate of fire alone.

Goblin



Svennemir -> (4/3/2002 8:22:42 AM)

A main battle tank would tear them up? Actually, the 12 HEAT rounds of British Churchills tear Tigers up regularly (at least the early model, the late one tends to withstand) and I don't expect the survivability of PZ-IV tanks to be better. This is at range 25+ and even though the Fire Control ratings of Churhills suck in comparison.

On the contrary, Tigers can't take out the British tanks from the front in any way.

Try it yourselves! These are Killers! Even without ammo resupply they'll destroy tanks much more expensive than themselves. Imagine an Ammo truck somewhere... :eek:

I know that hollow charges are pretty effective weapons, but something is wrong here - with the current pricing this effectiveness is ridiculous! (or at least rather unbalanced)

Rune Iversen: Hejsa! Jeg bor i Virum, som jo ligger ret tæt på KBH. Ikke dårligt. Skal vi tage et PBEM battle? :)



Goblin -> (4/3/2002 8:57:41 AM)

Ok, rephrase! I was specifically talking about rate of fire. If the CS tank misses once or twice, they are out of shots. Most main battle tanks have at least twice as many shots, and hit more often to boot. Not to mention there is one CS tank in each three tank platoon, and four or five enemy tanks in a platoon. I was not disagreeing with you. I have use the 95mm myself a few times, and felt a little guilty. I, however, lost several to Panthers and Tigers in the Normandy Gold campaign (one of my favorites!:D ). Could any of this be a reflection on each tanks crew experience? If yours are good, they deserve the kills. You could tweak the ammo loadout, or penetration if you are very unhappy.

Did a check and the Tiger's worst pen is 100 at 50 hexes. The front turret on the Churchill is 86 and the hull 59. If you haven't lost one, thank heavens, because the Tiger most certainly can kill one. The Panther is even more deadly. The 95mm pen is 127, the Tigers front turret is 148, and its hull is 102 (early model). While the 95mm can kill it, if it hits any slope or angle, it wont penetrate. The Pz IV series is in trouble, though...

Goblin;)



Rune Iversen -> (4/3/2002 9:26:48 AM)

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Svennemir
[B]
Rune Iversen: Hejsa! Jeg bor i Virum, som jo ligger ret tæt på KBH. Ikke dårligt. Skal vi tage et PBEM battle? :) [/B][/QUOTE]


I orden med mig, men det er ved at være sent nu og jeg skal i seng:cool:
Min e-mail adresse er i min forum-profil.

Vi snakkes ved:)



Charles2222 -> (4/3/2002 10:52:36 AM)

Goblin:
quote:

Did quick check, the StuH42 heat penetration is 105 out to 40 hexes. Its HE penetration is 37 and its AP is 84. I know it doesn't carry any, but they give the penetrations for the gun , not the vehicle.


Well something's kind of screwy here. Where do you see Heat is extending to 40 hexes? I mean, if I understand you correctly, you're thinking it goes to 40 just because the gun does. StuH42 may be a very rare exception, but all I can tell you is that it's VERY common that HEAT/APCR doesn't go full range for the gun. Just operating off the top of my head here, but the PZIIC for example goes to 40 hexes, but the APCR only goes to range 10.

I purchased a Stu. and I see what Svennemir was talking about, there is a table extending to 40 hexes for HEAT, so you have to think it will go that far. Actually, as the ammo dispositions work out the Stu. 105 rating is for AP, but it has none. It has 30rds. of HE and 6 HEAT.

You want to really laugh? I looked at the Sturmtiger, you know the one that could pierce through 8ft. of concrete? Well, it has an HE penetration (no AP) of 108 and with that might not be able to even penetrate a Sherman turret at zero range!!! Hmm, 3 whole more penetration points than the Stu. HEAT. So either that 108 is extremely inaccurate or nobody wanted to equip the gun as represented in the game with it's most tell-tale attribute. If it can manage to penetrate anything, that size 21 warhead might come in handy (it has only 14 total rounds, all HE). Even if it can be proved that the shell used for the concrete penetration wasn't ever fired at tanks, or couldn't be with any real reliance, there's always the factor that it therefore cannot be used for it's main purpose (fortification busting), even so, because with a mere 108, it'll be very hard-pressed to put a hole in a number of the fortifications, all of which I'm sure aren't as strong as to be representing 8ft. of concrete at any given plate.



Fallschirmjager -> (4/3/2002 12:03:46 PM)

HEAT is very intersting in the fact that no matter what range its fired from its penetration is the same.
HEAT relys on its namesake being heat to pentrate armor.
Other types of ammo requires kinteic energy to punch through defenses.

This is probally the reason most modern AT weapons use HEAT ammo and most modern tanks have armor that is specificly geared to protect against HEAT ammo.



I dont see what your complaint is.
A simple and cheap RPG can take out pretty much any piece of armor. There is no rule that says just because a unit is more expensive means it cant be killed by a cheaper unit.
The British had a simple technological advantage by using HEAT ammo.



Goblin -> (4/3/2002 12:56:47 PM)

Whoa Charles! I was just pointing out what was on the tables, I didn't write 'em.

I was disappointed with the Sturmtiger also. How about the KV-2?
Designed as a "tank buster" (quote from its description in the game encyclopedia), it doesn't get any HEAT rnds (the Soviets didn't have 'em at the time), and has NO Armor Piercing rnds. Not much of a tank buster.

Goblin



mogami -> KV-2 (4/3/2002 1:28:36 PM)

Does not this beast carry a 152mm gun?
HEAT High Explosive Anti Tank (HE with a shaped charge warhead) needed for guns where the normal HE round does not have the required force against armor.

A 'standard' 152mm High Explosive round can flatten a Tank.
rather then punch a hole in the armor it just causes a catostrophic buckling (like squashing a beer can)(the smaller calibur gun relies on the HEAT shaped charge to focus the energy to achive this result)
Since the explosive force is not dependent on muzzle velocity for penatration it remains constant at any range.



Goblin -> (4/3/2002 2:50:10 PM)

Mogami,

The effect you describe is called "spalling" and I am aware of it. I was refering to the in-game penetration of 49 for the 152mm gun carried by the KV-2. with a 49, it will require a very good hit to kill a German tank. That same gun has a pen of 126 with an armor piercing rnd, it just is not given any. (in the game)

Goblin



mogami -> sorry (4/3/2002 3:10:55 PM)

OK I see what you mean. Does not seem right that a 152mm shell is that ineffective. It kills dug in troops 150 meters from impact, knocks down stone buildings etc but a direct hit is completly harmless against all but the smallest AFV. As an old arty man myself this hurts my feelings. Think I'll dig up my picture of what a mere 105mm HE direct hit did to an Iragi T-55 and cry.

(I admit it was an unaimed shot that landed direct on top of turrent on dug in tank but the explosion caved in the turrent and flattened the vehicle-looks like godzilla stepped on it)

another thing the game lacks is another effect HE has when it hits AFV's it sometimes causes them to flip over. Even a near miss has been known to do this. 150mm and larger guns and 500-1000+ pd bombs have made many a heavy tank turn turtle. I realize there is probly no way to simulate this. But is should at least be recognized as something like a critical hit.



Goblin -> (4/3/2002 3:25:18 PM)

Mogami,

I just posted a site (see the post), and it lists the KV-2 as carrying 36 rounds HE, thats it. Hmmmm.....Guess the ammo loadout is correct.

Turn turtle? Ouch! I've seen pictures of tanks on their sides and back, can't imagine the force that must take!:eek:

Goblin



mogami -> KV-2 (4/3/2002 3:35:08 PM)

I don't doubt the ammount of ammo given just it's effect. Personnally I think the KV-2 too rare\ expensive for me to use.
I can't recall ever having one in a SPWaW battle where I picked the Soviet force. I am pretty hum drum in force selection as Soviets. Infantry Infantry Infantry and maybe a platoon of tanks per company. 1x 122mm off board arty per company. Land a barrage of smoke and advance the infantry then use the tanks at the break through point. On defense I omit the tanks and buy AT guns.



Goblin -> (4/3/2002 3:52:18 PM)

Svennemir,

The site I posted,[URL=http://www.wwiivehicles.com]http://www.wwiivehicles.com[/URL], lists the Churchill's 95mm gun as having a penetration of 110mm of armor at 1500m, with a HEAT round. Hope this helps.

Goblin



Svennemir -> (4/3/2002 6:51:42 PM)

In real life HEAT rounds had some difficulty remaining stabilized during flight, if I'm correct.

If HEAT rounds rotate (for stabilization) the impact jet will be unfocused and largely ineffective. I suppose this might mean the HEAT rounds should have lower range than AP/HE if they cannot have their hit chances changed considerably over range (seems all types of ammo have the same hit chances in SPWAW, so it might have been difficult to implement)

(BTW it was said that Churchill tanks had armour of ~80 - check the other models then, some have 120+ IIRC)

About the KV-2: I read ( [url]www.panzerlexikon.de[/url] ) that the blast of the HE shell could tear turrets off German tanks. Perhaps the SU-152 "Svierboi" worked in the same way? Right now it has AP rounds in the game.... pen=165.



Larry Holt -> (4/3/2002 8:35:51 PM)

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Svennemir
[B]...If HEAT rounds rotate (for stabilization) the impact jet will be unfocused and largely ineffective...

About the KV-2: I read ( [url]www.panzerlexikon.de[/url] ) that the blast of the HE shell could tear turrets off German tanks. Perhaps the SU-152 "Svierboi" worked in the same way? Right now it has AP rounds in the game.... pen=165. [/B][/QUOTE]
Svennemir, you are correct concerning the rotation of HEAT rounds. I have been disappointed in the effectiveness of KV-2s compared to what I was expecting as they were designed to be tank killers (that is not to say they are modeled wrong but they don't meet what I was expecting I don't know if the modeling or my expectations are wrong). I find them useless as tank killers. They make nifty assault guns to kill enemy infantry, ATGs, bunkers, etc. Just keep friendly inf away from the splash damage.



Mojo -> (4/3/2002 9:15:52 PM)

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Svennemir
[B]......About the KV-2: I read ( [url]www.panzerlexikon.de[/url] ) that the blast of the HE shell could tear turrets off German tanks. Perhaps the SU-152 "Svierboi" worked in the same way? Right now it has AP rounds in the game.... pen=165. [/B][/QUOTE]

That's a great site. Thanks! Though my German is very limited. Impressive legal disclaimer too. LOL



Charles2222 -> (4/3/2002 9:25:39 PM)

Goblin:
quote:

I was disappointed with the Sturmtiger also. How about the KV-2?
Designed as a "tank buster" (quote from its description in the game encyclopedia), it doesn't get any HEAT rnds (the Soviets didn't have 'em at the time), and has NO Armor Piercing rnds. Not much of a tank buster.


Hmm, I've never thoght of the KV2 as a tank-buster, though with the period of it's deployment, if it could hit anything, it's HE was VERY good. Funny I never thougth of the SU152 as tank-buster too, but look at it's description and supposedly it was too. If what I suspect is true, the USSR tank-destroyers aren't described as being designed for tank-busting (though you'd think the SU100 was) and yet so many of the assault guns are, such as the SU152 and what might be described as assault gun in the KV2. I'll also bet the commentary on the Sturmtiger has no mention of it being a tank-buster, and given the penetration rating it's no wonder. So you can see that encyclopedic claims of something being designed as a tank-buster don't exactly convince me.



mogami -> HE effects (4/3/2002 10:00:07 PM)

Greetings, In one of my long WW2 campaigns I have running currently I am playing the Soviets. In the first battle my core force of 4 companies of T-34m41 with 4 companies of conscript infantry riders was assigned to advance to contact (meeting engagement). Since I never employ KV-2 I had no problem with HE destroying my tanks. (Sig33 SP infantry guns destroyed several and german 81mm mortars took out 2). There was a prior debate concerning HE mortar rounds killing tanks, where I was in favor of it being possible. Also some earlier threads resulted in arty in general being reduced in effectiveness. (although I still believe we should model the game as close to actual effects as possible I submit to some things should be a result of what the general concensus among players desire) Since I first read the comments here I have been trying to kill German tanks with KV-2's so far without success. But german 81mm mortars still kill T-34's in both indirect and direct fire modes. using HE ammo.
So I asked my self Is the 49 pen for a 152mm correct? or was it supposed to actually be 149? While looking at data for various weapons I got myself extermly confused.

German
75mm FH 92pen
10.5cm FH 74pen
15cm FH 52pen
21cm 51 pen

Soviet
152mm gun on KV-2 49pen
152mm off board 165pen
203mm How 46pen
122mm FH 94pen

version 7.1



Charles2222 -> (4/3/2002 10:38:02 PM)

Mogami: What makes it even more confusing is that some of those ratings you quoted I'd venture to guess were actually AP rounds, such as I guess is the case with the GE 75FH. From my experience with mortars, perhaps their penetration is just about right. I hardly ever get my tanks wasted, and if they were hitting the top I'd certainly see where their being damaged is because the top isn't strong enough (also their hits aren't so annoying when the tanks, over time, get higher survivability ratings). Later in the war, some tanks have stronger tops and you should see the minimal irritance of the 81/82mm mortar lapse. It's just the early stuff and lighter ones that have to worry. I think any 120mm or larger has a good chance of even wasting the KTiger types.

I know I'd feel relatively helpless if I had some big expensive tanks and then I found the enemy had been firing large bombardment rounds and there was no smoke traces of their fire on the board. One good thing about big tanks becoming targets, is if you use them very skillfully, you can lure the enemy into chasing a unit which it can practically never hit, therefore saving the infantry from assured retreats/destruction, which can't run from it with any manner of skill (unless there's some HTs nearby for just such an emergency). I'm currently going through my head where it seems that sometimes the best defense to a heavy bombardment, is to be ready at all times to manuever the targets of it around, so that all those points spent on artillery would be largely wasted. One has to debate whether the losses incurred from not moving from good defensive stances is worth the losses of bombardment. I'm thinking a mixture of moving some things, while others stay, is probably the best overall strategy. Keep those Tigers and Panthers moving. Let the PZIVHs and SGIIIGs soak it up for armor that might have to remain at it's post.



Steve Wilcox -> (4/3/2002 11:59:22 PM)

"The KV-2 was intended as a heavy breakthrough tank, to help penetrate enemy defences reinforced with bunkers. The modified M-10 Model 1938/40 howitzer could fire a 52kg projectile at 436m/sec that was capable of penetrating 72mm of steel armour at 1500m. There was also a special 40kg concrete penetrating round for attacking pillboxes."
From Osprey's New Vanguard #17 KV-1 & 2. IOW, it's a bunker buster, not a tank buster, although it could ruin a tank crew's day. :)



Paul Vebber -> (4/4/2002 1:56:23 AM)

FYI, the pen ratings listed for both HE and HEAT are "nominal". Unlike AP, the actual effect you will obtain can vary signicantly.

Heat and HE rounds have a 10% "tumble rate" 10% of all rounds result in only 10% of the "normal" armor penetration effect (representing deflection of the round).

HE rounds penetration is a function mostly of its pen rating, but has a velocity componant as well so at close range you can routinely get pens a fair bit higher than the OOB rating. Thee is a random componant as well that varies between 80 and 105% of the given pen after modification. HE pen values are based on a shock damage table that relates general size of round to its damage potential. Since HE does not work by "penetration" but by shock the whole SP notion of "HE pen" is a poor model, but its what he have to work with.

NOte the table provided a few posts back mixes HE and AP pen values. they are not comparable.

Note that many large caliber HE weapons (like the Sturm Tiger) had *ZERO* capability to target a vehical in game terms. I believe there is only one recorded occasion of a Sturm Tiger affecting tanks where a round happend fall at random between two Shermans parked close together that were tipped over and completely wrecked. So some HE weps are down graded to prevent their use by players in a totally ahistoric roles. These were bombarment weapons meant to reduce bunkers and strongpoints, NOT to take on vehicals.

HEAT rounds are even more variable and cary randomly from .67 to 110% of their rated pen.

HE rounds are applied against the raw armor thickness and has twice the rate of 'vulnerable location" hits than other round types.

HEAT rounds are applied against the strict geometric thickness of the sloped armor, with no correction ofr ballistic effects on regular AP projectiles. Again their resulting penetration is highly variable. You can see the effect in the ALt-L combat.txt log. They have 1.33 times more "vulnerable loaction" hits than straight HE, but are greatly affected by skirts (which can also represent sandbags and other "stuff").

I reran the unit prices trought the point spread sheet to account for the effects of the armor modifiers. The point vlaues are consistently scored, and the SFH is available on the downloads page for those that want to try to improve the point scores. I did not have teh 2 weeks I spent the last time trying to tweak it to get things to "come out nice". I just stuck with the raw numbers in 90% of cases. But no matter what you do its impossible to capture the effecticenees of a unit in a single number.

Players who buy "best bang for the buck" forces will see non-historical results, becasue they are buying non-historical forces. The point values assume you are buying at least "semi-historical" forces. If you don't then you shouldn't be surprised if you have non-historical results!



Goblin -> (4/4/2002 2:43:26 AM)

Thanks Paul! Very informative. Good enough for me.

Goblin



Charles2222 -> (4/4/2002 3:10:52 AM)

Paul Vebber: Let's assume the maximum fort rating for armor is 200. Maybe it's 300, but let's just say 200. Given the SturmTiger rating of 108 HE, alongside size 21 shell, will it "ever" penetrate such a fort hit when clearly it should, given current SPWAW limits? I ask, because while it's use against tanks may had been nil, clearly hitting an object that couldn't move didn't prove to be an obstacle.

BTW, what would you say the 'top' rating on forts are? Is it usually the lowest rating that is shown for the other portions? I don't recall ever seeing ratings for the tops. Thanks.



Svennemir -> (4/4/2002 4:35:29 AM)

Wow, that was interesting reading Paul! Once again I'm surprised about the number of factors accounted for in SPWAW.

I'm off to download the SFH!



Paul Vebber -> (4/4/2002 6:31:43 AM)

Every fort has a "front turret" armor that is no more than about 100mm, the SturmTigers HE pen is 108 so if it hits in the top or front turret, then it will have a good chance to penetrate. The best Soviet front turret on a fort is 76 I believe, so hit it in the "front turret" and it will penetrate. Given the real world accuracy of these things just getting it routinely land in the hex you want is better than a real world commander would generally get. The game rate of fire is MUCH greater than real life too.



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