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JeanUSARMYGUARD -> Prices (7/10/2008 8:20:39 AM)

Just curious when is Matrix games going to hold a sale on their products. I want to buy Forge of Freedom, but $50 is pretty steep and the $60 one that I want to purchase (box) is about the amount of money to fill up my gas tank.

If the box version was $40 - 50 bucks... thats acceptable.

Does anyone know when such a sale may take place?



JudgeDredd -> RE: Prices (7/10/2008 8:50:29 AM)

Well it's your cash but Forge of Freedom is totally worth $60....beautiful manual with the box as well.

Generally, they hold a sale around Christmas time.



sterckxe -> RE: Prices (7/10/2008 8:55:56 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: JeanUSARMYGUARD

Just curious when is Matrix games going to hold a sale on their products. I want to buy Forge of Freedom, but $50 is pretty steep and the $60 one that I want to purchase (box) is about the amount of money to fill up my gas tank.

If the box version was $40 - 50 bucks... thats acceptable.

Does anyone know when such a sale may take place?


Usually Matrix has a sale around X-Mas - but the list of games on sale changes every year as not every game gets reduced in price.

And I'll let others explain to you that $50 is dirt cheap compared to other entertainment products - movie & dinner anyone ? [;)]

<edit>
Aren't you the developer behind Civil War General ?

http://www.thegloriouscause.us/
</edit>

Greetz,

Eddy Sterckx



JeanUSARMYGUARD -> RE: Prices (7/10/2008 9:47:46 AM)

Sterckxe,

1. Forge of Freedom looks like a amazing game... the AAR reports I read make the game very interesting... it may possibly be the best civil war title I have yet seen.

To us it may be dirt cheap... but try explaining that to the wife lol... who let me get away with a weekend trip to the Gettysburg reenactment... buying books, collectibles, and etc.

I may have to wait a few weeks... lol.

2. Yes I am the developer of The Glorious Cause.



hadberz -> RE: Prices (7/10/2008 10:47:34 AM)

Every now and then they have a blitzkrieg sale, its normally just one game that is marked down big time. Think the best I seen was 40% off. It's no notice so keep visiting the website :)



SuluSea -> RE: Prices (7/10/2008 5:22:26 PM)

As more and more war games from different companies hit the market, prices should go down or Matrix will start to lose faithful customers.

The last two games I purchased from Matrix I rarely play.

There are certain games at this site I would have already bought if the prices weren't what I consider expensive for an aged video game, atleast three of them. 

I'm a big believer in free markets and people getting compensated for their hard work but asking someone to fork over $80 plus dollars for a 4 year old game is bordering on the absurd.



Erik Rutins -> RE: Prices (7/10/2008 5:29:28 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: SuluSea
I'm a big believer in free markets and people getting compensated for their hard work but asking someone to fork over $80 plus dollars for a 4 year old game is bordering on the absurd.


In the mainstream market, every game is only "new" for a few months until another game like it, but newer and better, comes along. This along with retail store stocking policies and the glut of releases means that products are rapidly discounted and the disappear. Because this is how the most popular games are sold, people come to expect it.

In a niche market like this one that's not the case. Development takes longer (fewer people, fewer resources) and it could be a decade before a game is truly "replaced" by a newer and better version. In the meantime, a game needs to generate a decent revenue stream to support development of the next title, which will probably take 2+ years. Also, most of our games are not focused on technological advances as their main features, like better graphics (though we do that too) but rather on improved gameplay and better strategy, which doesn't really "age".

Obviously, there are exceptions but for the most part I think that we may actually be underpricing our games and there are quite a few games we sell that are 4 years old that are still just as good as they day they were released and have not really been supplanted by newer releases. With all that said, we do usually reduce prices gradually as time goes on, but at nowhere near the mainstream market pace. Frankly, following that type of model would put us out of business.

Regards,

- Erik



Kuokkanen -> RE: Prices (7/10/2008 5:36:16 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: JeanUSARMYGUARD

Just curious when is Matrix games going to hold a sale on their products. I want to buy Forge of Freedom, but $50 is pretty steep and the $60 one that I want to purchase (box) is about the amount of money to fill up my gas tank.

Hey, stop complaining over there! New computer games in Europe (on shelf) cost 50 €, and that's $78,54 (US)!



PunkReaper -> RE: Prices (7/10/2008 5:36:29 PM)

quote:

I think that we may actually be underpricing our games


Nooooooooooooooo.........It wasn't me moaning about the prices......why should I suffer if other people annoy you moaning about the prices. Perhaps there could be two price lists, one for people who only say nice things about Matrix and another higher priced list for people who aren't so nice. I am willing to search the message board and compile a list of the children who have been naughty or nice.



SuluSea -> RE: Prices (7/10/2008 5:48:37 PM)

Thanks for the reply Erik. [:)] You make a very good case.



sterckxe -> RE: Prices (7/10/2008 5:49:25 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SuluSea
I'm a big believer in free markets and people getting compensated for their hard work but asking someone to fork over $80 plus dollars for a 4 year old game is bordering on the absurd.


Remember when wargames for the C-64 and Spectrum were $50 ?

Well, that's a $100 in today's money.

http://www.westegg.com/inflation/

PC Wargames have never been so cheap. Compared to boardgames or miniatures they're even ridiculously cheap.

Greetz,

Eddy Sterckx





SuluSea -> RE: Prices (7/10/2008 6:11:25 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: sterckxe

quote:

ORIGINAL: SuluSea
I'm a big believer in free markets and people getting compensated for their hard work but asking someone to fork over $80 plus dollars for a 4 year old game is bordering on the absurd.


Remember when wargames for the C-64 and Spectrum were $50 ?

Well, that's a $100 in today's money.

http://www.westegg.com/inflation/

PC Wargames have never been so cheap. Compared to boardgames or miniatures they're even ridiculously cheap.

Greetz,

Eddy Sterckx





I remember in 1984 when my VCR cost 400 dollars .............your point?

There are certainly more developers making computer games now. If the consumer thinks games are too high they will buy elsewhere. Developers have the right to charge what they like, consumers have the right to make choices as well.



Greybriar -> RE: Prices (7/10/2008 6:53:25 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

In the mainstream market, every game is only "new" for a few months until another game like it, but newer and better, comes along. This along with retail store stocking policies and the glut of releases means that products are rapidly discounted and the disappear. Because this is how the most popular games are sold, people come to expect it.

In a niche market like this one that's not the case. Development takes longer (fewer people, fewer resources) and it could be a decade before a game is truly "replaced" by a newer and better version. In the meantime, a game needs to generate a decent revenue stream to support development of the next title, which will probably take 2+ years. Also, most of our games are not focused on technological advances as their main features, like better graphics (though we do that too) but rather on improved gameplay and better strategy, which doesn't really "age".

Obviously, there are exceptions but for the most part I think that we may actually be underpricing our games and there are quite a few games we sell that are 4 years old that are still just as good as they day they were released and have not really been supplanted by newer releases. With all that said, we do usually reduce prices gradually as time goes on, but at nowhere near the mainstream market pace. Frankly, following that type of model would put us out of business.


Thank you for your candid reply.



David Heath -> RE: Prices (7/10/2008 7:16:58 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: SuluSea

quote:

ORIGINAL: sterckxe

quote:

ORIGINAL: SuluSea
I'm a big believer in free markets and people getting compensated for their hard work but asking someone to fork over $80 plus dollars for a 4 year old game is bordering on the absurd.


Remember when wargames for the C-64 and Spectrum were $50 ?

Well, that's a $100 in today's money.

http://www.westegg.com/inflation/

PC Wargames have never been so cheap. Compared to boardgames or miniatures they're even ridiculously cheap.

Greetz,

Eddy Sterckx





I remember in 1984 when my VCR cost 400 dollars .............your point?

There are certainly more developers making computer games now. If the consumer thinks games are too high they will buy elsewhere. Developers have the right to charge what they like, consumers have the right to make choices as well.



The point I think Eddy is trying to make is this. Boardgames (Wargames) have gone up a lot in price since the 1980's and the PC games we purchased then were $50.00 or so. PC game prices have not changed to much. Item like a VCR which my Dad got one of the first Betamax machines has drop a lot since then but its a total mass market item. Again Wargames are far from that as a market force.




pad152 -> RE: Prices (7/10/2008 7:42:44 PM)

It's not just price but value, most of the wargame titles have a longer life, I'm still playing war games that are more than 5 years old. I also have to laugh at people who complain at the price of a new wargame, yet see no problem with paying a lot more for the special limited editions.

Example:

http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_ss_gw?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=Fallout+III&x=0&y=0

Fallout 3 Exclusive Survival Edition - $119.00

Fallout 3 Special Edition - $79.00

Fallout 3 Standard Edition - $49.00

Sure makes the standard edition at $49.00 seem like a bargin (marketing [8|]), yet two or three weeks after retail release, I have no doubt Best Buy, Target, or Circuit City will have it on sale for $39.99.





sterckxe -> RE: Prices (7/10/2008 8:11:52 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: David Heath
The point I think Eddy is trying to make is this. Boardgames (Wargames) have gone up a lot in price since the 1980's and the PC games we purchased then were $50.00 or so. PC game prices have not changed to much.


From the Avalon-Hill pricelist for X-Mas '82 - a couple of classics for comparison reasons, the number between brackets is this translated to today's dollar

Afrika Korps : $14 ($32)
Battle of the Bulge : $16 ($36)
PanzerLeader : $16 ($36)
Russian Campaign : $14 ($32)
Squad Leader : $18 ($41)
Third Reich : $16 ($36)

Today's Classics (from GMT) :

Command and Colours : Ancients : $65
Combat Commander : $79
Europa Engulfed : $99

I think it's easy to spot a pattern here : today's board wargames have nearly *doubled* in price since the eighties - inflation taken into account - while PC wargames have *halved* in price.

And then I'm not even going into the price of today's miniatures : a $50 will get you half a dozen trees or a couple of hussars which you'll have to base and paint yourself.

In the famous words of MajorH, developer of TacOps : "If you can't afford the occasional $50 to buy yourself a new wargame, get yourself another hobby"

Greetz,

Eddy Sterckx



noxious -> RE: Prices (7/10/2008 8:41:22 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: sterckxe

In the famous words of MajorH, developer of TacOps : "If you can't afford the occasional $50 to buy yourself a new wargame, get yourself another hobby"



But sir, it's not a hobby, it's a way of life !!!! ;)



Perturabo -> RE: Prices (7/10/2008 10:07:25 PM)

Personally, I'm not able to afford buying more than one wargame per year.
I live in Poland, which means that I earn 4 times less than people on the West and I have much less money for anything.

Some Matrix Games titles are sold through a local publisher which has prices that are more adequate to my countrie's economic situation, but they are usually not the ones which I want to buy.



pasternakski -> RE: Prices (7/10/2008 10:43:34 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: noxious

quote:

ORIGINAL: sterckxe

In the famous words of MajorH, developer of TacOps : "If you can't afford the occasional $50 to buy yourself a new wargame, get yourself another hobby"



But sir, it's not a hobby, it's a way of life !!!! ;)


Well implied, noxious. Eddie ... you mean we shouldn't be hopeless, derelict addicts, willing to spend our last shekel on what gives us the feeling we crave and can't do without?

Yeah, I guess maybe you're right. Oh, well ... [opens another bottle of Vodka, fires up the crack pipe, breaks out the Bunsen burner, syringe, spoon, and tourniquet]

It's a delicate balance companies like Matrix have to strike. You have to price your products high enough that you can make a profit, but, if your customer base won't pay that price, you go broke anyway. Very few have made a success of pandering to us wargamers, who are notoriously short of disposable cash.

I have studied the rise and fall of companies like SPI and Avalon Hill, and two things are clear: when you try to mainstream yourself, you never win. Also, when you become a marketing conduit for other publishers, you pay the price - maybe the worst being that you lose your original identity and start becoming a stranger to the customer base that kept you going in those lean, early years when your titles were self-developed and always critically acclaimed.

You were the new kid in town, and everybody loved you. "They will never forget you 'til somebody new comes along."

I can only say that, as a wargamer/consumer of more than 45 years standing, I hope that Matrix stays in business. I don't buy all their titles (and have been notoriously cranky about some that I have bought), but very few other companies would even think about creating games that satisfy my particular - and peculiar - tastes. I will pay the price asked for products I desire, no questions asked. If I think it's too much, I will just say (as my girlfriend has said when coming back from a shopping trip where she didn't buy much of anything - and THAT doesn't happen very often), "I didn't see anything I couldn't live without."

So, join up, sign up, and re-enlist today! Throw some of that hard-earned cash Matrix's way! Keep 'em alive! I need a fix - err, I mean - I am ready to buy a new game as soon as I see one that I want!



Doggie -> RE: Prices (7/11/2008 2:20:19 AM)

Filthy capitalists.

Don't you guys know you should be working for the betterment of mankind instead of lining your pockets?  Rutkins needs to sell his porche and start riding the subway with the rest of the proletariat. 




pad152 -> RE: Prices (7/11/2008 2:53:02 AM)

Ok, I take back everything I said, seeing Matrix Games is selling HTTR for $60, which is crazy! When you can still buy new copies selling than $20 elsewhere! [:-]



pasternakski -> RE: Prices (7/11/2008 3:05:13 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Doggie

Filthy capitalists.

Don't you guys know you should be working for the betterment of mankind instead of lining your pockets?  Rutkins needs to sell his porche and start riding the subway with the rest of the proletariat. 



You remember, of course, when Grigsby sold his Ferrari.



tc237 -> RE: Prices (7/11/2008 3:37:11 AM)

.



Gem35 -> RE: Prices (7/11/2008 3:39:45 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: pasternakski


quote:

ORIGINAL: Doggie

Filthy capitalists.

Don't you guys know you should be working for the betterment of mankind instead of lining your pockets?  Rutkins needs to sell his porche and start riding the subway with the rest of the proletariat. 



You remember, of course, when Grigsby sold his Ferrari.


[:D]
[:D][:D]



GaryChildress -> RE: Prices (7/11/2008 3:57:46 AM)

We probably pay high prices in part because there are fewer people who buy the type of games Matrix produces. If this were Firaxis or EA or some other popular producer then I would wonder why they couldn't charge a little less for their games seeing how they probably sell in greater bulk.

Furthermore, if these games could be sold for less then, according to the rules of capitalism, I would think that some company out there would create and sell games like these for cheaper, undercutting Matrix.



Perturabo -> RE: Prices (7/11/2008 4:27:19 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: tc237

quote:

Russian Campaign : $14 ($32)
Third Reich : $16 ($36)

I seem to remember buying TRC for $20 and 3R for $35, but that would have been around 89-91.

I'm not concerned about higher PC game prices, for the reasons Erik mentions. It is a niche market.
I have adapted by really limiting my purchases, waiting a few months for reviews and patches.
A few years ago I was buying most new games immediately, now I buy 1-2 new games a year, maybe.


Speaking of reviews...
I'm not really concerned about prices of strategy games, because if they were mainstream and funded by an industry giant, I would have to complain about having to throw my money away to upgrade PC every two years to have some new pointless graphic gadgets.
One thing that I'm concerned about is having to pay the said price for something that is more like a modded 8 year old game with minor engine tweaks and no new features (ekhem... CoI[8|]).
Another is having to pay the said price for something that doesn't have a demo.



GaryChildress -> RE: Prices (7/11/2008 4:50:16 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Perturabo

One thing that I'm concerned about is having to pay the said price for something that is more like a modded 8 year old game with minor engine tweaks and no new features (ekhem... CoI[8|]).
Another is having to pay the said price for something that doesn't have a demo.


That is certainly true. It has become popular in the gaming industry to re-release games with little or no new features in them. This can be for several reasons. Some old games simply won't work on the latest Windows platforms and require an update. CoI is a case in point for that. I have CC III and if it will work on my XP I won't buy COI and the admin for the forums even suggested to me that CoI was only for those who can't get CC III to work on their OS. He didn't try to pawn it off as something new and unexplored.

EDIT: To even buy the copyrights of an old game from the owner and then package and sell it again costs the producer money. Another reason to sell old games without improvements is that there are people out there who have not yet discovered the game and there would be no way of discovering the old game if someone didn't offer a new version of it for sale.

I also see a lot of boxed anthologies out there now as well. 2K games has offered Civ III in a "Complete" eddition which added little if any new aspects to Civ III. In fact 2K didn't even fix several persistent bugs which still haunt Civ III. 2K also simply packaged a lot of user created products with Civ III Complete which are equally available for free download at Civ Fanatics. EA games has its C&C pack out there. Nothing new in any of those games, just a way to package them to make some money. It is an unfortunate reality that businesses are in business to make money. If Matrix doesn't come up with ways to legitimately sell products then there is no more Matrix.

If Matrix is rolling in surplus money at the moment then I suspect that entrepreneurs and investors out there would be wearing holes in their check books trying to create more strategy wargame companies.



Perturabo -> RE: Prices (7/11/2008 4:55:56 AM)

The difference is that most of developers sell re-releases much cheaper than new games. That's how I could afford games when I was a kid. I waited until they got old and cheap.



GaryChildress -> RE: Prices (7/11/2008 5:24:37 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Perturabo

The difference is that most of developers sell re-releases much cheaper than new games. That's how I could afford games when I was a kid. I waited until they got old and cheap.


Most developers are also dealing with larger markets. Civ III appeals to a huge market. C&C appeals to a huge market. Grognard games just don't have the same following as a game any 6 year old can pick up and understand almost instantly.

I used to buy a lot of Indie albums when I was in college. They also often costed a LOT more than many of the more popular albums. I once bought an Album by Nick Cave and The Birthday Party for over $20. I could have easily spent the money on the (then) equivalent of a Britney Spears album for less than half the cost. Do I think Nick Cave is getting too much for his album? No. That's part of the cost of having a small venue.



Perturabo -> RE: Prices (7/11/2008 6:14:45 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Gary Childress

Most developers are also dealing with larger markets. Civ III appeals to a huge market. C&C appeals to a huge market. Grognard games just don't have the same following as a game any 6 year old can pick up and understand almost instantly.

And creating a version with no major improvements puts off a lot of those few that would be interested in buying it. I remember the reaction of Polish CC community to CoI. It was even worse than reaction of Fallout fans to FINO3[:D].

quote:

ORIGINAL: Gary Childress

I used to buy a lot of Indie albums when I was in college. They also often costed a LOT more than many of the more popular albums. I once bought an Album by Nick Cave and The Birthday Party for over $20. I could have easily spent the money on the (then) equivalent of a Britney Spears album for less than half the cost. Do I think Nick Cave is getting too much for his album? No. That's part of the cost of having a small venue.

You're missing the point. Some indie or even freeware games get enough/a lot of/hideous amounts of improvements, while some (like CC) get only some minor tweaks. And for some reason the latter cost the same amount of money as new games that get big upgrades.



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