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Ask your opponant to back up his claims with some historical fact. Japanese Night Fighters and Flak weren't very effective at all during the war..., so if he's not accomplishing anything he's getting accurate results.

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Yes,few hundred 4E bombers above Japan base in 1942 at night is historically accurate and not gamey

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ORIGINAL: mdiehl

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Yes,few hundred 4E bombers above Japan base in 1942 at night is historically accurate and not gamey

I don't understand. You're one of the guys who constantly argues that one should not be wedded to replicating history. At the operational level, I and Mike Scholl agree with you. That is why nobody objects in principal to the Japanese invading places that they never invaded (like Port Moresby) or cruising around for three years with the Kido Butai death star, or massing hundreds of aircraft at Rabaul and other bases that rarely housed more than a hundred planes of all types.

(Although, I would add, if the game did a reasonable job simulating how difficult it was for Japan to establish a good logistical position in a hurry, it would be a rare thing to see hundreds of Japanese LBA operating from any base or base complex in the SoPac).

If consolidation of his bomber fleet is "gamey" then so is consolidation of Japanese LBA and Japanese carrier aviation.

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ORIGINAL: TommyG

In my PBEM game with Jeff (CHS) it is Oct 42 and, as the allied player, I have marshalled every 4e I can get at Cooktown for night bombing raids on PM. Cooktown is level six, well supplied, and my air commander is excellent. I am getting about 50% participation on the raids, so maybe 100 planes a night. My erstwhile opponent is objecting, arguing that the AA and night fighter capabilities of the IJA are broken, so it is an unfair advantage for me. Flying at angels 7000, I am knocking out a half dozen or more ac on the ground each night with only minor damage to my planes. He wants to limit night bombing to one squadron only per mission. I think this is too limiting, but would agree to some restriction. My bombers are only in the 50s experience wise and I have no long range escort yet, so I get slaughtered anywhere and everywhere in daylight.
Since the IJ have no defense, are large scale night bombing raids gamey? If so, what are reasonable HRs?

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Yes,you can do wonders with KB in 1944,just like with 4E bombers

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Expecting crews trained for daylight precision bombing to find and hit within a half-mile of a jungle airbase at night without electronic aids would be highly optimistic.

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ORIGINAL: mdiehl

Massing 4EBs for night raids in 1942 is not gamey because.
1. In 1939 the USAAF was training bombing crews for that sort of thing.
2. In 1942 night bombing missions were flown in the SoPac by the USAAF and using 4EBs.

The only "open question" here seems to be whether or not their effectiveness in the subject of this thread is accurately modeled.

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ORIGINAL: Nemo121

Hawker, why is it gamey?

I don't see it as being something the Americans didn't do on a smaller scale ( small-scale night bomber raids certainly did happen ) and it CERTAINLY isn't something they couldn't have done ( the Americans could easily have used the B-17s and B-24s as night-bombers with the appropriate support and a doctrinal switch ).

If the Japanese can keep KB together in a manner that the real-war Japanese didn't and can mass their fighters and bombers in a manner the real-life Japanese didn't then I don't see any problem at all when the Allies do the same to them ( using weapons in a manner which was possible but non-doctrinal during the war ).

Sorry but I just don't get the "it's gamey" argument. It seems perfectly reasonable to me.( but then again I don't really restrict PTs or four-engined bomber attacks on naval targets either ).

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ORIGINAL: pasternakski

You know, these discussions frequently get far too emotional. I think it may be because various posters have an attachment to one side or the other, and lose sight of objectivity in their chauvinistic rush to triumph.

With that in mind, and figuring that this would also be in keeping with how accurately this game depicts the historical situation in the Pacific theater anyway, I suggest that the names of the countries involved be changed. That way, there's less danger of people becoming too "patriotic" (in the same sense that lab scientists are now using lawyers instead of rats in their experiments, because there is far less danger of lab personnel becoming emotionally attached to a lawyer).

Let's see. We could have Fredonia and Grand Fenwick as the primary agonists, with such minor contributors as Erewhon, Brobdingnag, and Lilliput.

4E bombing, day or night, has always been weird in WitP. It ain't gonna change, so there's no use talking about it. If it's possible to do something in a game, you gotta let your opponent do it, unless you have established house rules up front.

Otherwise, fageddaboudit.

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ORIGINAL: Cuttlefish
But I still can't resist offering my opinion on why I think a house rule governing this is a good idea. The OP is getting good results with pilots with experience in the 50s; once those pilots get to experience 70+ night bombing pretty much means game over for Japan.

Airfields and all their planes on every base within their considerable reach will be annihilated; AA and coast guns will be completely destroyed; and any ships in port are pretty much doomed. Hawker's comment about laser-guided munitions isn't that far off the mark, and the Japanese player has no defense at all.

I won't use such tactics when playing the Allies and I hate being subjected to them as the Japanese. I will leave the debate about which side could have done what historically to others; all I know is that taken to its limit this tactic pretty much breaks the game.

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ORIGINAL: Cuttlefish
I won't use such tactics when playing the Allies and I hate being subjected to them as the Japanese. I will leave the debate about which side could have done what historically to others; all I know is that taken to its limit this tactic pretty much breaks the game.