RE: English is Easy?

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Mark71 -> RE: English is Easy? (10/8/2008 5:13:37 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Son_of_Montfort Netherlandians In the beautifull language that is English, we are referred to as 'Dutch'. edit: I seem to have come to this party a tad late... (both JD and Hans Bolter were correct)

anarchyintheuk -> RE: English is Easy? (10/8/2008 5:30:36 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Neilster Watching the Presidential debate today I was struck by something. I'd like to ask the Americans here whether they think it's actually healthy to be constantly told "America is the greatest country in the world" by your politicians and business leaders? Also, in exactly what way is this true? Occasionally one of our pollies tries that on about Australia. You could make a reasonable argument for it (or for a few other countries), given our legal freedoms, economy, robust financial sector, standard of living, low crime rates and weather but it's generally greeted with derisive jeers. There's a healthy distrust of that sort of hubris here. Pride cometh before the fall, and all that. This confidence seems to be America's greatest strength but perhaps also a bit of a flaw. It generates a "can-do" attitude that has achieved wonderful things but also means that sometimes Americans don't think there is anything to learn from others. Hence the initial hideous casualties in France in WW1 when American commanders ignored the hard lessons of the French and British. Personally, I think the United States has generally been a force for good in the world but has developed a mythology that it is all about altruism when it has often been pragmatism, a forced hand or even self-interest. Cheers, Neilster Can only speak for myself but the "US is the greatest country" is pretty much just pro forma in political speech. Because it comes from a politician it means nothing to me (like 99.9% of whatever else said politician has to say). I have no idea what "the greatest country in the world" is or means. It would be interesting to find out when those references became prevalent in US politics and if it has increased or decreased. As far as the mythology of altruism, I think that's what people like to believe about their countries (even if their country's actions are almost always motivated by self-interest[:D]). As for being a force of good in the world, the most important question for me is . . . is the world a better place because of my country's existence? Generally, I'd have to say yes.

HansBolter -> RE: English is Easy? (10/8/2008 5:35:10 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Neilster Watching the Presidential debate today I was struck by something. I'd like to ask the Americans here whether they think it's actually healthy to be constantly told "America is the greatest country in the world" by your politicians and business leaders? Cheers, Neilster One could probably successfully argue the case that it is a necessary counterbalance to constanty being put down by everyone else and denounced as the Great Satans of the universe. [;)]

HansBolter -> RE: English is Easy? (10/8/2008 5:54:24 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: anarchyintheuk Can only speak for myself but the "US is the greatest country" is pretty much just pro forma in political speech. Because it comes from a politician it means nothing to me (like 99.9% of whatever else said politician has to say). I have no idea what "the greatest country in the world" is or means. It would be interesting to find out when those references became prevalent in US politics and if it has increased or decreased. Personally, I believe it traces it's origin to two distinct sources. First would be the diaspora out of Europe of the religiously oppressed looking for a better world (ie...the New World) where they could practice thier religions realitively free from persecution. Hence the "greatest country in the world" naturally, in their eyes, becomes the one that facilitates this desire. The reference developed into a tradition. The second reason is the massive influx of dispossesed Europeans looking for, and finding economic prosperity. In spite of the current economic meltdown, the USA has enjoyed a much deserved reputation as the Great Land of Oppurtunity. Many, many immigrants have found it to be so. So, once again, it reinforces the perception of being the "greatest". I'm sure there are other contributing factors to the "sense of greatness" such as the level of foriegn aid handed out and sheer military power, but they don't rank as high on my list as the first two. I think it is only natural for any nation that finds itself in a "leadership" role to develop a somewhat narcissistic (sp?) sense of self greatness. The Romans being a prime example. After all, the "barbarian" hordes of Europe are only branded as so by history because they lost to the Romans. Many aspects of their cultures were actually far more "civilized" than those of the Romans. That certainly didn't stop the Romans from declaring themsleves to be the greatest embodiment of civilization inj existence.

Toby42 -> RE: English is Easy? (10/8/2008 6:08:57 PM)
I would guess that every citizen would like to think that their country is the "Greatest" country in the world. There's nothing wrong about being proud of one's country, but we live in a shrinking world where we are more and more dependent on others for various things in our life.

Kuokkanen -> RE: English is Easy? (10/8/2008 7:15:11 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Marc von Martial quote: ORIGINAL: Matti Kuokkanen ..... quirks like that: "Kun lakkaa satamasta, käyn hakemassa lakkaa satamasta" [;)] Sounds like me after a crate of Vodka [:)] I'll translate it to you: Kun lakkaa satamasta, käyn hakemassa lakkaa satamasta When it stops raining, I'll get varnish from the dock Note that lakkaa satamasta is there two times

Widell -> RE: English is Easy? (10/8/2008 7:19:40 PM)
At the risk of offending someone, alternatively hurting someone's feelings (See PS below for explanation) here are three language related links that can be of interest in this exciting debate: http://www.engrish.com/ http://www.kli.org/ (Don't miss the "Sounds of...." section. Great stuff!) http://www.urbandictionary.com/ PS (I'm Swedish you know. Traditionally neutral, so I have a desperate need to make sure I stay in the middle lane and take no real position on anything . We learn English well only to be able to communicate with the Danes when we go there to get insanely drunk on their, relatively cheap and, relatively, easily accessible beer. While the Danish understand Swedish reasonably well, Swedes in general are embarrassing when it comes to understanding Danish, and specially Danish numbers. This is why Swedes and Danes are good Engrish) DS

Toby42 -> RE: English is Easy? (10/8/2008 8:15:45 PM)
Cute links! The only way to offend me is to offend my Wife... And maybe tell me that my kid is "Ugly".

JudgeDredd -> RE: English is Easy? (10/8/2008 9:46:10 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Treale I would guess that every citizen would like to think that their country is the "Greatest" country in the world. There's nothing wrong about being proud of one's country, but we live in a shrinking world where we are more and more dependent on others for various things in our life. Britain sucks [:D]

Toby42 -> RE: English is Easy? (10/8/2008 9:51:48 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: JudgeDredd quote: ORIGINAL: Treale I would guess that every citizen would like to think that their country is the "Greatest" country in the world. There's nothing wrong about being proud of one's country, but we live in a shrinking world where we are more and more dependent on others for various things in our life. Britain sucks [:D] Now JD, I've always been an Anglophile. Even if I'm of Sicilan Ancestry.....

Terminus -> RE: English is Easy? (10/8/2008 10:31:33 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Widell At the risk of offending someone, alternatively hurting someone's feelings (See PS below for explanation) here are three language related links that can be of interest in this exciting debate: http://www.engrish.com/ http://www.kli.org/ (Don't miss the "Sounds of...." section. Great stuff!) http://www.urbandictionary.com/ PS (I'm Swedish you know. Traditionally neutral, so I have a desperate need to make sure I stay in the middle lane and take no real position on anything . We learn English well only to be able to communicate with the Danes when we go there to get insanely drunk on their, relatively cheap and, relatively, easily accessible beer. While the Danish understand Swedish reasonably well, Swedes in general are embarrassing when it comes to understanding Danish, and specially Danish numbers. This is why Swedes and Danes are good Engrish) DS Svenskere...[:'(]

Widell -> RE: English is Easy? (10/8/2008 10:49:32 PM)
Japp - Så är det! Will never understand the Danish "Halvfems", but Roskilde Festival as well as the Danish Beer, the Gammel Dansk and the Danish gir.., ahm, people are great [;)].

Terminus -> RE: English is Easy? (10/8/2008 10:55:41 PM)
And those of us over here will never understand "nitti"...[;)]

Sarge -> RE: English is Easy? (10/8/2008 11:26:15 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Son_of_Montfort I AM AMERICAN and a native born English-speaker, Sarge, but thanks for insulting the French in the mix (I just moved to France, not that it is any of your concern). Like they did nothing during WWI, WWII and it was all the U.S. Of your 2320 posts, I haven't seen one that wasn't antagonizing someone else. And you say that I am "at it again." [8\|] Sorry Hans, the wording above just seemed a bit offended. Remember, you can't read tone in a forum post (or more precisely, you can read any tone into a forum post). So I apologize for taking you more seriously than you meant. What ? Its not a reasonable question to wonder what the National languages would be spoken today across mainland Europe with out America's intervention ,especially in the context of WWII and the cold war ? Lets be honest here, the Europe of today would look nothing like our present map. [;)]

yoshino -> RE: English is Easy? (10/8/2008 11:43:38 PM)
English is very very very difficult for me.[:D] I'm learning a few years to participate this forum(and other game forums),but still can't writing well. Though,I think that Japanese language is more difficult for many westerners. They MUST be learned about thousands of Kanji and Hinagana and Katakana...[:'(] There is first of all...

Terminus -> RE: English is Easy? (10/8/2008 11:46:19 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Sarge quote: ORIGINAL: Son_of_Montfort I AM AMERICAN and a native born English-speaker, Sarge, but thanks for insulting the French in the mix (I just moved to France, not that it is any of your concern). Like they did nothing during WWI, WWII and it was all the U.S. Of your 2320 posts, I haven't seen one that wasn't antagonizing someone else. And you say that I am "at it again." [8\|] Sorry Hans, the wording above just seemed a bit offended. Remember, you can't read tone in a forum post (or more precisely, you can read any tone into a forum post). So I apologize for taking you more seriously than you meant. What ? Its not a reasonable question to wonder what the National languages would be spoken today across mainland Europe with out America's intervention ,especially in the context of WWII and the cold war ? Lets be honest here, the Europe of today would look nothing like our present map. Yeah sorry, but we all know what your real meaning was, so don't bother being cowardly about it...

Sarge -> RE: English is Easy? (10/9/2008 12:00:54 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: JudgeDredd Whilst I'm here, why r u always harping back to the WWII? Get over it m8. Been there ing done that. You need to drop the big chip on your shoulder m8...seriously [8\|] Maybe because this is an “WARGAME” forum [;)] Silly me for making the conversation relevant to our hobby …….my bad quote: ORIGINAL: JudgeDredd He's an antagonistic swine and continuously barges into conversations wherever America is mentioned to defend the great ole US of A. And, by the way, that's regardless of what context is used....he will spin it his way, as he has done here. I'm still convinced the guy works in politics....I've never seen spin like it. The only part he doesn't get is he doesn't have to be it's protector. It does fine on it's own. How do you “barge” into a conversation on a forum ? Again , silly me for not seeking permission first before posting I didn’t realize it was invite only. I’ll pm you next time so you can screen the threads I’ wish to voice my opinions . And really what’s with you and the personal insults all the time, how is my post completely inappropriate but your comments as seen above expectable ?

Sarge -> RE: English is Easy? (10/9/2008 12:05:41 AM)
sry [:o]

Sarge -> RE: English is Easy? (10/9/2008 12:15:03 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Terminus Yeah sorry, but we all know what your real meaning was, so don't bother being cowardly about it... Who is “we” you and Judge ? Coming from someone with 25,000 + K posts in 3 years I think you’d be the last person with a grip on reality [8\|]

Mike Dubost -> RE: English is Easy? (10/9/2008 3:52:35 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: HansBolter quote: ORIGINAL: Neilster Watching the Presidential debate today I was struck by something. I'd like to ask the Americans here whether they think it's actually healthy to be constantly told "America is the greatest country in the world" by your politicians and business leaders? Cheers, Neilster One could probably successfully argue the case that it is a necessary counterbalance to constanty being put down by everyone else and denounced as the Great Satans of the universe. [;)] I think we need to be a bit careful in this discussion, so as to avoid it degenerating into politics or a personal flamewar, but let's see if we can stay civil. The idea of the US as the greatest country in the world is nothing new. I remember some years ago, American Heritage magazine had a 19th Century cartoon of political cliches, which included "spread eagle" as one of them. The term derived from the idea of spreading the US out to include other parts of North America (since the eagle is the national symbol). For further evidence, I cite Abraham Lincoln "We shall nobly save or meanly lose the last, best hope of Mankind". It appears to be a long-standing part or the US self-image, for better or worse. As to wether it is healthy; I don't know for sure, but I think it is OK as long as we don't suffer from the delusion that we are perfect. I happen to believe that we are the best, but as humans, even our best is imperfect. What I don't want to see is a desire to become more perfect become a desire to copy others blindly. Let us examine ideas from elsewhere, by all means, but let us test them against our current ideas. I feel that being told we are the greatest is better than being told we are the worst (which I heard from some residents of Berkeley). According to them, the US was never good enough no matter what. If I felt that way, I would not be interested in trying to make the US better. Since I believe that it is the best, and that others look up to us, I am inspired to try to make us worthy of that high regard.

Zap -> RE: English is Easy? (10/9/2008 5:13:51 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Terminus English IS easy. People who think it's hard should try learning Danish. I secound that! in comparison to some other languages english is less of a challenge. I thought that chinese would be pretty difficult to learn. Writing in chinese is even on a higher level.

sterckxe -> RE: English is Easy? (10/9/2008 9:07:10 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: yoshino English is very very very difficult for me.[:D] I'm learning a few years to participate this forum(and other game forums),but still can't writing well. Though,I think that Japanese language is more difficult for many westerners. They MUST be learned about thousands of Kanji and Hinagana and Katakana...[:'(] There is first of all... As I've been working with Japanase collegues for the past 10 years I can tell you that your English - though a bit flawed - is already better than average, and certainly comprehensible enough. And the only way to get even better at it is to keep on posting [;)] Greetz, Eddy Sterckx

SireChaos -> RE: English is Easy? (10/9/2008 9:41:51 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Mike Dubost quote: ORIGINAL: HansBolter quote: ORIGINAL: Neilster Watching the Presidential debate today I was struck by something. I'd like to ask the Americans here whether they think it's actually healthy to be constantly told "America is the greatest country in the world" by your politicians and business leaders? Cheers, Neilster One could probably successfully argue the case that it is a necessary counterbalance to constanty being put down by everyone else and denounced as the Great Satans of the universe. [;)] I think we need to be a bit careful in this discussion, so as to avoid it degenerating into politics or a personal flamewar, but let's see if we can stay civil. The idea of the US as the greatest country in the world is nothing new. I remember some years ago, American Heritage magazine had a 19th Century cartoon of political cliches, which included "spread eagle" as one of them. The term derived from the idea of spreading the US out to include other parts of North America (since the eagle is the national symbol). For further evidence, I cite Abraham Lincoln "We shall nobly save or meanly lose the last, best hope of Mankind". It appears to be a long-standing part or the US self-image, for better or worse. As to wether it is healthy; I don't know for sure, but I think it is OK as long as we don't suffer from the delusion that we are perfect. I happen to believe that we are the best, but as humans, even our best is imperfect. What I don't want to see is a desire to become more perfect become a desire to copy others blindly. Let us examine ideas from elsewhere, by all means, but let us test them against our current ideas. I feel that being told we are the greatest is better than being told we are the worst (which I heard from some residents of Berkeley). According to them, the US was never good enough no matter what. If I felt that way, I would not be interested in trying to make the US better. Since I believe that it is the best, and that others look up to us, I am inspired to try to make us worthy of that high regard. Starting about 100-odd years ago, the "patriots" of my country began to grow the idea that their country was the best there ever could be, and that they needed to export this goodness. In their words, "Am Deutschen Wesen soll die Welt genesen", i.e. roughly, the world shall be cured by the (wholesome) German example. We all know what consequences that had - two world wars and a holocaust, for example. Now, whenever I hear the tireless repetition (impervious to criticism or inconvenient fact, of course) that America is good, America is great, and America must remake the world in its image, I remember my history lessons.

JudgeDredd -> RE: English is Easy? (10/9/2008 10:37:48 AM)
Duck...here it comes...[:D]

HansBolter -> RE: English is Easy? (10/9/2008 11:42:28 AM)
Astute observation Judge! So the poster above you Judge seems to be oblivious to the obvious differences between America and Nazi Germany. The simple difference is that we after we conquer a countyry militarily we don't turn the populace of that country into slave laborers. We rebuild the countries we devastate and give them back to the people who lived there in the first place. You might want to study your own history and come to grips with the fact that you are a soveriegn nation today because we are nothing like Nazi Germany was!!! We aren't out to create lebensraum. If one is so dense one can't grasp that diference then one surely can't expect one's opinion to be taken seriously.

BoredStiff -> RE: English is Easy? (10/9/2008 3:58:22 PM)
[image]http://i33.tinypic.com/dccwwo.jpg[/image]

SireChaos -> RE: English is Easy? (10/9/2008 4:42:15 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: HansBolter Astute observation Judge! So the poster above you Judge seems to be oblivious to the obvious differences between America and Nazi Germany. Hardly oblivious. Quite the opposite, in fact. But I am also aware of similar tendencies. quote: The simple difference is that we after we conquer a countyry militarily we don't turn the populace of that country into slave laborers. We rebuild the countries we devastate and give them back to the people who lived there in the first place. Because you needed them as allies. I think if it hadn´t been for the presence of a strong and hostile Soviet Union in ´45, the aftermath of WW2 would have looked a lot like the aftermath of WW1 - i.e. no rebuilding, but instead squeazing out what they yet have as reparations. I also think that, had that happened, we would already have fought World War 3 in some form. quote: You might want to study your own history and come to grips with the fact that you are a soveriegn nation today because we are nothing like Nazi Germany was!!! We aren't out to create lebensraum. Because you have plety of Lebensraum of your own. You might want to ask some of the natives of your country what your ancestors did to acquire their Lebensraum. quote: If one is so dense one can't grasp that diference then one surely can't expect one's opinion to be taken seriously. The same could be said about those who do not grasp the similarities. Are you really so stupid that you think just because the US does not operate extermination camps and does not annex other people´s land (any more), there is nothing what so ever they could possibly have in common with either of the infamous periods in Germany´s history? I do not say that the US is Nazi Germany. I say they are, for a large part, dominated by rampant blind patriotism and an equally rampant desire to remake the world in their image - the same things led the Kaiserreich towards World War 1, with the well-known long-term consequences.

timshin42 -> RE: English is Easy? (10/9/2008 5:35:49 PM)
SireChaos, Now that you have clarified your remarks, I believe your thoughts deserve serious consideration. You might be surprised how many truly patriotic Americans recognize the problem you have pointed out! It is even more important to learn from the serious errors in one's own country's history than from the mistakes of other nations.

Ike99 -> RE: English is Easy? (10/9/2008 5:38:09 PM)
quote: The simple difference is that we after we conquer a countyry militarily we don't turn the populace of that country into slave laborers. We rebuild the countries we devastate and give them back to the people who lived there in the first place. If this is true then why are you not loved around the world? [image]local://upfiles/19240/F55D4E9C28994E9CBCC783A8B04D3E50.jpg[/image]

PunkReaper -> RE: English is Easy? (10/9/2008 5:49:06 PM)
quote: Personally, I think the United States has generally been a force for good in the world but has developed a mythology that it is all about altruism when it has often been pragmatism, a forced hand or even self-interest I have just been reading The Cold War by John Lewis Gaddis. Excellent book that generally supports the above statement. I would recommend this book as it explains how American and Soviet foreign policies developed over the post war years, from the Marshall Plan through to the fall of the Berlin Wall. It is full of great quotes and stories. One I particularly liked was one from Eisenhower calling De Gaulle a cross between Napoleon and Joan of Arc. ....and when De Gaulle left NATO and ordered the the removal of all American troops from French soil, President Johnson ordered his secretary of state Dean Rusk to ask De Gaulle "Do you want us to move American cemeteries out of France as well." A nice put down if ever I heard one.

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