RE: Directive 21 playtesters thread (Full Version)

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SMK-at-work -> RE: Directive 21 playtesters thread (1/17/2009 3:08:05 AM)

T30-31:


[image]local://upfiles/994/0EB6B02F960541A095E83C4A5D6378BD.gif[/image]



SMK-at-work -> RE: Directive 21 playtesters thread (1/17/2009 3:08:58 AM)

T32-33:


[image]local://upfiles/994/B061FBA6E50441B6B6B0AE6F41282DA7.gif[/image]



SMK-at-work -> RE: Directive 21 playtesters thread (1/17/2009 3:31:05 AM)

I've tried to make the animation a bit smaller for turns 43-50 -

Here's 43-46:



[image]local://upfiles/994/12BE4F825A26460D8355C6C99E26EB3D.gif[/image]



SMK-at-work -> RE: Directive 21 playtesters thread (1/17/2009 3:38:26 AM)

And 47-50 - notice the Brandenberger wandering over towards the Urals!



[image]local://upfiles/994/F75C9F3485674C698DF9E89E294F4E8B.gif[/image]



SMK-at-work -> RE: Directive 21 playtesters thread (1/17/2009 3:52:37 AM)

And just for comparison here's the soviet view at the turns indicated - note the new units at Leningrad at T42 - I don't know whether they came over lake Ladoga or were rebuilt in a stray Soviet owned hex there.

But basically it looks like I killed off enough soviets in the first 20 or so turns so that they never recovered.





[image]local://upfiles/994/CC904C88372446A89BE141493BCAE979.gif[/image]



SMK-at-work -> RE: Directive 21 playtesters thread (1/17/2009 4:08:08 AM)

I just downloaded the new version and actually read hte briefing & noticed that I had cheated with the Finns - attacking with them over the "stop line" before Leningrad fell....but I shall not do that next time...



larryfulkerson -> RE: Directive 21 playtesters thread (1/17/2009 4:51:29 AM)

Early in turn two I'm moving my units and I find two hexes in Russian territory that I haven't moved onto yet that are already converted to friendly hexes. I haven't any idea why or how that happened. Anybody have any ideas?

[image]local://upfiles/16287/FF489A9E6CB84D48A0CA0383AF28F530.gif[/image]



sPzAbt653 -> RE: Directive 21 playtesters thread (1/17/2009 9:20:01 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: larryfulkerson

Early in turn two I'm moving my units and I find two hexes in Russian territory that I haven't moved onto yet that are already converted to friendly hexes. I haven't any idea why or how that happened. Anybody have any ideas?



I think that was part of Canaris' experiment in using beached whales to control enemy coastal areas.



sPzAbt653 -> RE: Directive 21 playtesters thread (1/17/2009 9:36:15 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: SMK-at-work

... thought I'd play on for a bit to see how the shock 80 affedcts things....



Please do if you can, we're pretty sure we are going to switch the mud turns from a cease fire event to a shock event. Any feedback would be good, plus any ideas on whether Elmer should be hit with the same negative shock value as the Axis. I'm working towards Citadel around turn 190 so I can experience it again. If anyone else wants to try it, in the earlier file you can pick the Typhoon Theater Option at turn 43. Then when Typhoon is over, the Axis side will suffer 80% shock for 10-11 turns. This was eliminated in the later files, you can tell which one you have by the briefing. In the later, non 80% shock version, the briefing tells you that you get two supply units, and that is the only effect.



Karri -> RE: Directive 21 playtesters thread (1/17/2009 12:06:13 PM)

If you are going to play the mud through shock make sure both sides get the same negative shock. If you don't give the Soviets same negative shock then they will have a huge advantage over the axis, even if they just have slightly higher shock they still have a big advantage.




SMK-at-work -> RE: Directive 21 playtesters thread (1/18/2009 5:05:04 AM)

I played up to 52 but there wasn't much point - the -ve shock was completely countered by the overwhelming Axis numbers - there were only 340 Russian units left at the end - 1 Romanian division disintegrated under counter-attack by Novorossisk, but otherwise the massacre continued....



larryfulkerson -> RE: Directive 21 playtesters thread (1/18/2009 5:34:07 AM)

I really like where the Arty is in the order of battle in the newest version.  It's right where it needs to be when you're moving units and designating attacks.  If it was earlier in the order of battle like in FITE, you need to anticipate where you think it might be needed, whereas now you have a better idea where you need your arty to go.  It's better.  Thanks.



SMK-at-work -> RE: Directive 21 playtesters thread (1/18/2009 6:51:14 AM)

I have found already (2 turns of the new version) that it makes it a bit awkward for shifting it around if you want to concentrate it for an offensive, or if you're not meticulous about keeping each corps together then it ends up (already!) fragmented- and some of it starts quite some distance from its parent units so it's not all good to start with.

So I'll have to disagree with Larry - I don't like it.

I have no problems with the previous version - the artillery formations were easy enough to find in the OOB by going back to OKH in Berlin and then cycling through formations.

Ditto with the engineers/bridging units - I found it awkward - I wanted to bridge rivers 2-3 hexes wide at hte start of hte campaign & had to muck around looking for them.

If you're going to lump the artillery with corps then IMO a better idea would be to put it in the corps HQ's and at least give them a useful purpose - that would also help prevent them being used a-historically as scouts and to surround units.



larryfulkerson -> RE: Directive 21 playtesters thread (1/18/2009 12:24:10 PM)

I agree that the Arty units were easier to find in the old version: just hit the 'O' button and look a few lines down from OKW. But I'm found another way to find your arty units. The first click on the 'HQ' button brings the headquarters units to the top of stacks but the second click brings all the arty units to the top of the stack. Maybe we should lobby Ralph for a third click to bring all the engineers to the top of the stack as well (?).

I don't try to keep my Corp HQ units close to the arty units and indeed use them for recon, to finish surrounds, etc. and to bolster the weakest units on the front line. Other than that I don't have much use for Corp HQ units. Heck, I'll even use the AA units to finish a surround in a pinch.

[image]local://upfiles/16287/D7DE7E51FB414CC68ABB3EC50D1EBFE5.gif[/image]



sPzAbt653 -> RE: Directive 21 playtesters thread (1/18/2009 2:12:43 PM)

quote:

The first click on the 'HQ' button brings the headquarters units to the top of stacks but the second click brings all the arty units to the top of the stack.


Neat! An 'easy' button, just like in the commercials!

quote:

the artillery ... a better idea would be to put it in the corps HQ's and at least give them a useful purpose


This is very true. It wasn't done that way because a lot of artillery units enter later in the scenario. That would mean that some would be in the HQ's, some would not be in. Or it would require a change out of HQ units (I don't want to do that). But if the at start artillery units were in the HQ's, that would certainly make the initial turns easier to manage. And it may not matter much if the later ones are separate. I'll consider doing it that way.

I didn't like the engineer setup at first, either. It takes some getting used to. But now I find that if I don't know where they are, a click on the local Corps HQ's reveals which ones have assets, and then they are easy to find.



SMK-at-work -> RE: Directive 21 playtesters thread (1/18/2009 10:42:22 PM)

It may be accurate from a historical point of view, unfortunately TOAW doesn't let you shift units around between formations as was also historical.

IMO fixing units to corps formations is the greater of 2 evils in this case.

As an example  - 11 & 30 Inf Korps starts in Romania....but their artillery starts on the other side of the Lvov "bulge" in Poland - so something is a bit strange there.....

Edit: I think the Brandenburgers might have been nerfed a bit too much...I'm finding them pretty useless now - they don't even move fast enough to keep up with the front lines!



sPzAbt653 -> RE: Directive 21 playtesters thread (1/19/2009 12:33:39 PM)

quote:

11 & 30 Inf Korps starts in Romania....but their artillery starts on the other side of the Lvov "bulge" in Poland


Those units are in a special circumstance. They did start where they are located, adding to the artillery support for AGS. The choices were to attach them to another formation, or move them into Rumania at start, or the way they are set up now. If a player wants to keep the formations together, then once the link up is made between AGS and 11th Army, it will all straighten out. Or once 11th Army becomes active, rail its' artillery to Rumania.

On the Brandenburgers, we found that most often they were being dropped in Soviet territory and then moving all over the place converting hexes. So we had to downgrade them somehow. I think you said that you don't drop them like that, but what else can be done to keep them from being overused? The idea of using the guerilla icon wasn't too popular.



SMK-at-work -> RE: Directive 21 playtesters thread (1/20/2009 4:59:06 AM)

Does special ops make them air droppable?  I didn't see "air droppable" so didn't try. I guess if you were air dropping them then it'd be better for them - I shall remove them to airfields forthwith!! :D

What you outlined for the 11 & 30 Korps artillery is exactly my point - I se no reason to attach units strictly to formations when such attachment has little or no effect on the game.  If TOAW had systems for re-attaching then it would be fine...but it don't...shrug.



larryfulkerson -> RE: Directive 21 playtesters thread (1/20/2009 6:13:11 AM)

Sorry to bust your bubble SMK but according to the picture I've attached the dude's you're talking about are foot movement only. So I'm guessing they can't be loaded on aircraft and dropped willy-nilly.

[image]local://upfiles/16287/01F45952C96F43EF9CB8D1FF6031D700.gif[/image]



sPzAbt653 -> RE: Directive 21 playtesters thread (1/20/2009 7:07:50 AM)

Don't forget that they have 'special' capabilities.

[image]local://upfiles/24850/FA251FD478C44AAA9A816B21852862FC.jpg[/image]



larryfulkerson -> RE: Directive 21 playtesters thread (1/20/2009 7:26:39 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: sPzAbt653
Don't forget that they have 'special' capabilities.

Oh. I guess I should have looked at one that was parked on an airport. Hey, and while I have your attention: I'm not sure I like the 11 railroad dudes that don't have to actually do anything besides park near a rail to repair it. I'm noticing that they aren't nearly keeping up with the front lines. And it's not even winter yet.



sPzAbt653 -> RE: Directive 21 playtesters thread (1/20/2009 8:38:24 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: larryfulkerson

quote:

ORIGINAL: sPzAbt653
Don't forget that they have 'special' capabilities.

Oh. I guess I should have looked at one that was parked on an airport. Hey, and while I have your attention: I'm not sure I like the 11 railroad dudes that don't have to actually do anything besides park near a rail to repair it. I'm noticing that they aren't nearly keeping up with the front lines. And it's not even winter yet.



Rick and I have done extensive testing to get the proper mix of number of supply units, supply radius and auto-repair capability. It really shouldn't be enough to keep up, but it should be enough to not fall too far behind. The overall effect is on a percentage rate, so some turns you will get less, and some turns more. It all evens out eventually. I will point out that it should actually be far more difficult to keep up. The Germans had extreme difficulty with the rail situation, and it was only because of motor transport that the whole supply system didn't collapse. Because intact rail lines provide full supply, we have to keep a bit of a reign on it. We could talk about it forever, but it is quite boring.

Also, keep the little supply units up front within one hex of your favorite units. They help out a lot. At the start, the supply radius is 6, so keeping a supply unit 6 hexes from the nearest railhead will provide 150% of full supply to any adjacent unit, and a one level boost to any unit within 6 hexes of the supply unit. So you get to some point during the initial advance where you have to make decisions as far as if you want to wait for the railhead to catch up a little, to keep in good shape, or just let your units go ahead and run low.



sPzAbt653 -> RE: Directive 21 playtesters thread (1/21/2009 6:09:21 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: SMK-at-work

I played up to 52 but there wasn't much point - the -ve shock was completely countered by the overwhelming Axis numbers - there were only 340 Russian units left at the end - 1 Romanian division disintegrated under counter-attack by Novorossisk, but otherwise the massacre continued....



Maybe we need the cease fires to prevent forward movement, and negative shock at the same time to restrict movement behind the lines?



SMK-at-work -> RE: Directive 21 playtesters thread (1/21/2009 9:06:57 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: larryfulkerson

quote:

ORIGINAL: sPzAbt653
Don't forget that they have 'special' capabilities.

Oh. I guess I should have looked at one that was parked on an airport.


Me too! :)

quote:


Hey, and while I have your attention: I'm not sure I like the 11 railroad dudes that don't have to actually do anything besides park near a rail to repair it. I'm noticing that they aren't nearly keeping up with the front lines. And it's not even winter yet.


Well that much at least is perfectly reasonable then! :)

I find they go much faster when I pay attention to exactly where they are and how many broken rails are nearby.

But overall they shouldn't keep/catch up until some time in the winter.



Silvanski -> RE: Directive 21 playtesters thread (1/21/2009 9:31:34 AM)

FYI, an article about railroad conversion on the east front. It gives some dates of completion
http://www.feldgrau.com/dreichsbahn.html



SMK-at-work -> RE: Directive 21 playtesters thread (1/22/2009 9:14:40 AM)

Yep I've seen that document a lot.  The very best cases are listed where rail lines were repaired right up to the front line either immediately or within a few days - 3 of them....3 cases across the whole of the Russian front from the start of Barbarossa until December.

And you can do that if you concentrate your rail repair in D21 too.

But not if you spread it out - you get 1 really good line and 1 reasonable 1, or 3 not so good ones...or 4 not very good ones at all...etc



Curtis Lemay -> RE: Directive 21 playtesters thread (1/22/2009 4:04:51 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: SMK-at-work

Yep I've seen that document a lot.  The very best cases are listed where rail lines were repaired right up to the front line either immediately or within a few days - 3 of them....3 cases across the whole of the Russian front from the start of Barbarossa until December.


"Repaired", yes. "Converted", I'm not so sure. In other words, I suspect they were operational only for the few wide gauge trains the Germans could field. I don't think the converted railhead was keeping up with the panzers.



larryfulkerson -> RE: Directive 21 playtesters thread (1/26/2009 10:47:35 PM)

One of our Soviet fort units has a space in it's name. Is that a problem? I don't mind, and I'm not complaining I just noticed it.

[image]local://upfiles/16287/30CC5CE616EF4DE1BF228D05F231EAB4.gif[/image]



sPzAbt653 -> RE: Directive 21 playtesters thread (1/26/2009 11:43:05 PM)

No worries, it's just a way to tell the difference between formations with the same name. It doesn't have any effect on play, it's just a design thing.



larryfulkerson -> RE: Directive 21 playtesters thread (1/29/2009 4:55:48 PM)

So um........the Hungarians, Romanians, Finns, Spanish and Italians have their own style of Infantry squad. So I'm wondering why the Slovak units don't. I'm not complaining and I don't mind that they don't I'm just curious. They seem to have the regular Axis squads as seen in the picture below.

[image]local://upfiles/16287/89A641F8F2A1409A8ABA4BE1B70D7143.gif[/image]



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