RE: Impact of strike logic (ANW 393) (Full Version)

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rsharp@advancedgamin -> RE: Impact of strike logic (ANW 393) (2/5/2009 4:57:08 PM)

Not only are we not brushing off the ToT manager, we've been dreaming on it for years. Still looking for the proper opportunity to implement it.

What brought me around to allowing redundant strikes was the notion that you could have a multi-base strike with several missions. You can manually calculate the ToT from each and delay the different missions so you achieve the simultaneous strike. Not incredibly hard to set up but the difficulty would be in getting it just right.

Thanks, I look forward to your feedback,



hermanhum -> Harpoon (2/5/2009 6:39:41 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: th3flyboy

It makes perfect sense to me to launch multiple missions on one target to arrive at the same time, the only other option that would really rectify that situation would be to add a timer on the mission creation screen to allow for you to specify the TOT, and have the TOT not go under the minimum amount of time needed for the whole strike package to get there. Then the package would be on target and attack at the same time.

The request for a new TOT feature would likely only apply to land strike mission because a TOT attack against a ship target is virtually impossible by the AI. You would need to know exactly when and where a ship is going to be detected in order to coordinate the various strike elements. Of course, there are some scenario designers who write them this way.

The TOT feature would thus only really apply to the Land Strike (where you know the exact location of all the targets). As pointed out, this is already fairly easily calculated. Although such a new feature might be handy and simplify the process slightly, the risk is always the unforeseen and unintended consequences. Since users already have the necessary tools to accomplish this task, I suggest that it is unneeded with more risk than anticipated low return on utility.



th3flyboy -> RE: Harpoon (2/5/2009 6:50:56 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: hermanhum

quote:

ORIGINAL: th3flyboy

It makes perfect sense to me to launch multiple missions on one target to arrive at the same time, the only other option that would really rectify that situation would be to add a timer on the mission creation screen to allow for you to specify the TOT, and have the TOT not go under the minimum amount of time needed for the whole strike package to get there. Then the package would be on target and attack at the same time.

The request for a new TOT feature would likely only apply to land strike mission because a TOT attack against a ship target is virtually impossible by the AI. You would need to know exactly when and where a ship is going to be detected in order to coordinate the various strike elements. Of course, there are some scenario designers who write them this way.

The TOT feature would thus only really apply to the Land Strike (where you know the exact location of all the targets). As pointed out, this is already fairly easily calculated. Although such a new feature might be handy and simplify the process slightly, the risk is always the unforeseen and unintended consequences. Since users already have the necessary tools to accomplish this task, I suggest that it is unneeded with more risk than anticipated low return on utility.


Honestly HH, for now, it is not a good idea to add it, as it will be a risk during the process of fixing bugs to add something that may have a lot more bugs, but it would be a good idea down the line for beginners to help them get used to commanding. Furthermore, yes it would most likely be only for land targets, but you have to remember that this could also be used for CAPs and waypoints as well, as IIRC the USAF uses in mission planning a TOT on their waypoints, CAP plans, and their strikes. TOT at least in Falcon 4.0 means the time the aircraft is on that waypoint. It would be useful to be able to set that up for those kinds of missions as well, as it could come in useful for coordinating CAP operations so that you don't have gaps in your patrols.



FreekS -> RE: Harpoon (2/7/2009 1:45:34 PM)

A few thoughts on the TOT calculator.

First, it could be for scen designer AND for player.

a. For a player I could imagine something like:
- select enemy ship just detected
- hit airops button
- up comes not only a list of all airbornplanes, but also of groups on the ground. Only the planes/grounded planes that have the loadout and fuel capable to reach the target are shown. Shown are also the TOT for each group. Selecting multiple groups would then make the planes launch at suitable times to coordinate with the TOT of the slowest selected group.

I feel that would add value.

b. This feature would also add value for the designer, as the ANW TOT is much harder to calculate than 3.6. In 3.6 it was easy, as outlined above, measure distance (2 clicks) devide by cruise speed (for many planes 500knots) and off you go. However the AI in ANW does not always use cruise speed. If it has enough fuel it may use Full or Burner (I think). And a mix of Cruise, Full and Burner. This was done (presumably) because the higher speed is safer for the strike planes.
So carefully coordinated strikes made in 3.6 MAY actually be less coordinated in ANW; and recalculating them to TOT cannot be done.

So haveing a TOT-calculator that takes into account the time spent at Cruise, Full, Burner speed of AI or player-controlled planes would be usefull. An alternative would be to carry out Ground strike and ShipStrike missions at Cruise speed only.

Freek



hermanhum -> Harpoon (2/8/2009 8:13:05 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: FreekS

A few thoughts on the TOT calculator.

First, it could be for scen designer AND for player.

a. For a player I could imagine something like:
- select enemy ship just detected
- hit airops button
- up comes not only a list of all airbornplanes, but also of groups on the ground. Only the planes/grounded planes that have the loadout and fuel capable to reach the target are shown. Shown are also the TOT for each group. Selecting multiple groups would then make the planes launch at suitable times to coordinate with the TOT of the slowest selected group.

I think that the idea to have it enabled for the AirOps button is nice, but might be a bit extravagant. If someone wanted to take advantage of such an option, expecting the user to create a mission from the Create Mission window and then enabling it as a switch (like the 1/3 rule) may be reasonable.

A potential downside of a ToT function like this might be the additional strain on the CPU. Already, the game seems to run quite slowly for anything but the smaller scenarios. The addition of extra calculation cycles to track the speed of the target, the distance to all units capable of launching an attack, the speed of the planes launching on their ingress (Cruise/Full/Afterburner), etc. seems a pretty heavy load because it would be in constant fluctuation as the target moved.

quote:

ORIGINAL: FreekS

An alternative would be to carry out Ground strike and ShipStrike missions at Cruise speed only.

I concur. It would be very useful to have an option emulating the previous strike behaviour at Cruise speed.



rsharp@advancedgamin -> RE: Harpoon (2/8/2009 8:46:14 AM)

That's a good one. I would also like the feature where I could set a time and get a list of strike craft capable of reaching the target by that time. A filter.

I wouldn't worry about CPU cycles because, as noted, the ToT calculator, in any role with missions, would work with a fixed point. It could be a facility or it could be a reference point. After the initial calculation, it would only need to updated if the destination is updated.

If we did get to a point where we could use the ToT against slow moving targets then it would probably update periodically. Say every 5 minutes of game time. Just for dreaming sake, this would be user configurable so the game could adapt to the hardware available. In this case, many missions calculating at the same time would slow things down considerably on that update heart beat.

Dreaming aside, any implementation will go through several iterations which will build the parts necessary. The simplest would be a hotkey that allows the user to select a unit and a point. They would then give the ETA for the unit at different throttle settings at the current altitude. The most complex would be a complete strike planner with roles fulfilled by different mission craft. Lot's of space in between for useful tools for both the editors and players.

Controlling mission throttle settings is a feature in 3.10 but one thing at a time.

Great discussion.



FreekS -> RE: Harpoon (2/8/2009 9:04:50 AM)

Russell,

But please don't forget the use of TOT-calculator by the mission designer.

If I have a set of strike planes devided over say two landbases, and I need to coordinate TOT, then I don;t know as a designer what altitude/speed the strikers will use. Some may use Full speed, others with less fuel may use cruise.

So the calculator should be implemented only if I can also control mission speed/altitude (i.e. 3.10)

If my planes are on a carrier than the designer also has to calculate where the carrier will be when the mission triggers. I usually make sure the carrier in that case is on delayed mission so I can set a plotted path and can calculate where the carrier will be when the planes launch. Its not exact though, and in the design phase I almost always have to replace the strike missions (strike, SEAD, CAP) several times with tweaked delay times.

A good calculator for both player and designer would thus be nice, combined with better control over mission speed/altitude.

Who knows, I might like 3.10!

Freek



rsharp@advancedgamin -> RE: Harpoon (2/8/2009 9:28:20 AM)

3.10 will give you a lot more control as an expert user and editor. So you'll enjoy that. Get your default mission settings correct and leave them. A few missions will require exceptions and you can change their profile. That's pretty much what I see happening.

It will not include a ToT calculator of any sort. 3.10 is done as far as feature selection. Take that with a grain of salt, of course.

The carrier certainly would complicate things. I could see a new mode for the Launch Aircraft dialog that would work like you describe. It would have a new column for ETA which would consider

Delay time
Current course of the airbase (CV) and where it will be after the delay time
Distance to target
Standard mission speed and altitude of the current assigned mission (as stated, we may have to consider a consistent speed or use an average)

Further complicating things are mission delay variance and weapon release range. Such a feature would be more of a guide for the user than something the missions use to perform. Still a lot of value in such a feature for quicker and more accurate planning.



FreekS -> RE: Harpoon (2/8/2009 9:40:04 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: rsharp@advancedgamin

The carrier certainly would complicate things. I could see a new mode for the Launch Aircraft dialog that would work like you describe. It would have a new column for ETA which would consider

Delay time
Current course of the airbase (CV) and where it will be after the delay time
Distance to target
Standard mission speed and altitude of the current assigned mission (as stated, we may have to consider a consistent speed or use an average)

Further complicating things are mission delay variance and weapon release range. Such a feature would be more of a guide for the user than something the missions use to perform. Still a lot of value in such a feature for quicker and more accurate planning.




Russell,

In the scen I'm making at the moment I've had to take all factors (weapon range, plane speed, plane navigating around nav zones, distance,...) you mention into account manually. End result is a SEAD mission from 4000nm away firing minutes before a ground strike mission from a carrier 300nm away. Both 7 hours or so into the game so the carrier has moved 100+ nm.

If we make the TOT calculator it HAS to be EXACT IMO. No value at all in an approximation. Better do it well in Harpoon 5.0 than poorly in 3.10!

Freek



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