RE: India Thrusts (Full Version)

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Cap Mandrake -> RE: India Thrusts (3/29/2009 6:18:11 AM)

I was attracted to the "India Thrusts" title. I thought I might find an excert from the Kama Sutra.

Are both Karachi and Bombay urban in this mod?



Canoerebel -> RE: India Thrusts (3/29/2009 6:27:08 AM)

Yep, both are urban hexes.



John 3rd -> RE: India Thrusts (3/29/2009 7:56:51 AM)

I will leave this battle in Brad's hands and only provide my useless thoughts and advice!  

Glad to draw capt with the whole Kama Sutra India Thrusts title!

Dan (who is up WAAAAY Late) has very good and valid points regarding air transport.  I honestly have no clue as to what is in Karachi.  I say we cut Bombay off and blast the pogees out of it!  For whatever that is worth...considering the day I've had probably not much...



Q-Ball -> RE: India Thrusts (3/29/2009 2:52:23 PM)

I think it entirely possible that we will hit an urban wall at both Karachi and Bombay. I have several ideas if that is the case:

1. We will want to close the airbases there. This is critical. We can build several nearby airbases to both, and also employ the IJN. They will have to have so many planes on Nav attack, escort, CAP, etc, they won't be able to cover all eventualities. It will take alot of aircraft to "break" the Allies CAP, but once we set up the air infrastructure, we can do that and maintain it for awhile.

It will be a major project to break the Allied airpower, but attacking from many bases on one, I think we can do it.

2. Utilized IJN to interdict supplies, probably more to Bombay than Karachi. We have all our old BB's under repair at the moment, but most are nearing completion. When this happens, we will bombard Bombay constantly. I have a small CV force to also work the sealane to the south, though one the RN gets that 3rd CV, it won't be up to the task of a straight out fight. We may encourage one anyway, if I can LRCAP from shore, and the Allies won't have a good port.

3. We can take the time to clean up Ceylon. This was always the plan. We can't have it in our rear, and should net us a nice prisoner haul.




Q-Ball -> RE: India Thrusts (3/29/2009 3:01:03 PM)

And here is the best question for the gallery?

I have not given up on Karachi yet, but let's say we do end up with all of India but Karachi and Bombay. If this is the case, was it worth it?

I think about John and Dan's game, where John took all of Australia, save Melbourne and Sydney. Ultimately Dan bounced back completely from that.

I would love to hear other's thoughts, but I think there are key differences between India and Australia that will make this expedition worth it.

BURMA will be a key beneficiary; we look to trap and destroy some units there, and at the conclusion, the Burma "front" will just be the portion facing the Chinese border. The Chinese are not near the offensive threat the British are, so that takes away a key Allied area of advance

INDIA will be a bit of a sump of IJA Resources. But it will take a long time for the British to break out, and keep them pinned a long time. We have also prevented a British-Chinese hook up. Dan and John's game shows how potent a combination that is for the Allies, Chinese troops in British ships. This theater offers alot of opportunities for the Allies (much more than RL), and blunting the British delays or pushes that threat off.

India is a net positive however in terms of resources, supplies, and goodies the Empire needs. This is a key benefit; our operations there are self-sustaining.

The conquest of NEW ZEALAND effectively cuts Australia off from the US; the draw of Allied air resources to India also means that Australia has almost no air units at the moment. It's not an offensive platform at all, and won't figure to be for some time. That is another benefit of this.

The only realistic places the Allies can advance now is in the EASTERN PACIFIC. And I expect them to try shortly.

Overall, Japan sort of has 3 general options after the initial objectives, loosely Australia, India, or pushing into the eastern pacific. I think India is the best. I suppose AE is going to change that with all the new garrison requirements.



John 3rd -> India Proposition (3/29/2009 5:19:18 PM)

Been thinking about what Brad has written here. This is a Strategic Proposal for Planning purposes:

1. Take the line detailed below.
2. Clean-up our Rear so there is nothing to concern us while--at the same time--building up our infrastructure.
3. Take Bombay through weakening it with Blockade and then assault.
4. Launch limited Offensive the grab Lahore and Rawapindi.
5. With Fall of Bombay launch final do or die drive on Karachi.

While these events are occurring we must plan on a Naval contest of the Gulf of Aden. I would prose the following Fleet additions:

1. We have another CVE due out in about 2 weeks. Hosho is nearly done repairing. Send them both to India. This will give the Fleet both Junyos, 3 CVE, and Hosho (202 Planes). Should be enough to give a good accounting of itself and fight the Brit Fleet.

2. All 6 of the Old BB move to or stay in India. Form 2 Bombardment TF to Operate out of Mandalore that can keep Bombay under Bombardment 2 days in 3. Will need more AR to base there as well out of the Repair Yards in Trincomalee and Diamond Harbor.

3. Form 2-3 Raiding TF consisting of 3-4 CA/CL and 5-7 DD.

I think the key is to reach a stop point and then clean-up the backyard before moving for the final kill.

We must also station a few Units in our Rear to act as Reaction Forces if the Allies try to launch an amphibious assault; however, to do so they will need strong Naval CAP and we should be able to get through that and sink the Invasion Force.

My .02



[image]local://upfiles/18041/2BE0E9FAEFEA4D1EBD5B730926A99351.jpg[/image]



Q-Ball -> RE: India Thrusts (3/29/2009 5:25:58 PM)

Combat Report
May 15, 1942

This is a brief one, a couple quick updates:

1. Mandalay had a 3 to 1 shock attack, dropping the forts and setting up what will probably be the final attack tommorow. We hope to destroy those troops in a few days by driving them to Myiktinya, and forcing a surrender.

2. Ahmadabad or whatever that town is will be taken shortly; the land route to Bombay is already cut. Jaipur is also in Danger. Cownpore fell today. The Allies are running as fast as possible for Delhi, and probably Karachi, as Delhi can be easily cut. I think they will win the race to Jaipur, but we are going to try to cut the Allies off in Norther India. Most of our troops are heading toward Bhopal/Jaipur to effect that.



Canoerebel -> RE: India Proposition (3/29/2009 5:33:55 PM)

Brad, the conquest of so much of India has absolutely been worth it - both in territory, resources, pushing the Allies back, and the fact that you've lost next to nothing to this point.

Here is my analysis, for what it's worth:

1.  Will taking Karachi and Bombay give you guys auto-victory?  If so, and if there is any way to take them, then doing so is worth every effort.  All possible attention should be given to that and everything else would be a sideshow (note, attaining auto-victory is an artificial sort of objective, but it's the only way the Japanese can really win the war; if both sides wanted to continue the war after the Japs attained victiory, that would be great; but it would be awfully sweet for you guys to have identified your objective and to have obtained it).

2.  If taking Karachi and Bombay won't give you auto-victory, or if doing so is essentially impossible, recognize that fact as early as possible and don't break your back trying to reduce them for no good reason.  IE, avoid doing what Hitler did with the Luftwaffe during the Battle of Britain.

3.  Taking Ceylon and wiping out all remaining resistance outside Bombay and Karachi are definately worthwhile goals.

4.  The Allies will have a hard time getting untracked again, but by late '42 or early '43 should be in a position to take the war to the Japs.  A major landing on Ceylon or Sumatra would be two obvious targets.  If you can entice the Allies into instead invading a point in mainland India and then fighting their way across the continent, you've sucked them into a long ground campaign over territory you'd have to give up anyhow.

5.  They may use the American carriers in the Pacific, or possibly they could commit them to the Indian Ocean if they feel like the war could be lost there.



veji1 -> RE: India Thrusts (3/29/2009 5:34:58 PM)

I disagree with John's assesment on the importance of cleaning the pockets behind the front before moving in for the kill... you need to assess the situation properly but either Karachi is doable and you need to act fast and go for it or you KNOW it isn't in the short term, and therefore probably never, and you can sit back and clean up before besieging Bombay..



John 3rd -> Bombay Air (3/29/2009 5:39:46 PM)

This is at Bombay...


[image]local://upfiles/18041/B83D8D59ABCD450A8DC71E9568541D70.jpg[/image]



ny59giants -> RE: India Thrusts (3/29/2009 5:41:29 PM)

India and Sub assignments:

I would send 2 Glen equipped subs to the Aden channel area to give adequate forewarning. A third would be used to rotate in. If you do not consider it gamey, then upgrade them to Alfs for more range.

Assign 4 to 8 fleet boats. The RO are short range and would do well here.



Canoerebel -> RE: India Thrusts (3/29/2009 5:46:28 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ny59giants
India and Sub assignments:

I would send 2 Glen equipped subs to the Aden channel area to give adequate forewarning. A third would be used to rotate in. If you do not consider it gamey, then upgrade them to Alfs for more range.

Assign 4 to 8 fleet boats. The RO are short range and would do well here.


Be careful, though, that your Glen recon don't stray into the HR "off limits" zone, which is usually four hexes from the Aden channel outlet.



Rainer79 -> RE: India Proposition (3/29/2009 6:02:23 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: John 3rd
3. Take Bombay through weakening it with Blockade and then assault.


It seems to me that a LOT of IJA soldiers would have to die for this to happen, especially if the Allies have been building forts. ~1900 AV in a urban hex will be no pushover in any case. Bombay gets auto-supply - as does Karachi - so you will not be able to completely starve the bases either.



John 3rd -> RE: India Proposition (3/29/2009 6:35:10 PM)

Great comments from all you guys. 

I was unaware of Bombay getting auto-supply.  Is it enough to support the troops there, build Forts, AND keep those 4EB flying?

MY thoughts are to take Bombay so we have NOTHING behind out lines for later in the war.  We do not need a Tobruk that is always one step away from breaking out...

The Allies have detected my move towards Changsha and are falling back all along their salient from south of Ichang to Nanchang.  This was always the goal to get them away from Nanchang and out of that river bend.  Question is now should I still attack across the river or go at Changsha from Nanchang?

Have hit Changsha's Resources doing 125 in damage over 2 days and then attacked the troops due south of Ichang to make them think I might be making a river crossing there, will shift back to Changsha today and plaster their AF where a few Chinese Bombers are flying.

Brad--How much China air do you want?

 



Q-Ball -> RE: India Proposition (3/29/2009 8:26:35 PM)

This does bring up a key question. Entering a hex will stop enemy production from factories and resources. But can anyone confirm:

Will entering a hex stop the enemy from receiving auto supplies, like at Bombay?

This is a key question. Because if Bombay continues to collect supply, I don't see how it can be taken. I estimate well over 1000 AV in the hex, which means we would need all 10 Divisions in India to make a dent, and maybe not even then is it takeable.

Rather than stop and clear Bombay, I would rather leave troops in the urban hex to hold the Allies there; build up neighboring airbases; and keep pushing toward Karachi. I think we have a shot at cutting a bunch of units off by reaching Malir before the Allies, which will mean destroying them eventually.

Dan makes a good point, we want them to land on India eventually, not somewhere else. Losing it is inevitable, we'll have to figure out a plan to make that time consuming.

John, as far as China air, the biggest problem is that we don't have enough bases to fly air from. I would rather flatten the resources at Changsha, Wuhan, and Chungking first, as well as the Oil at Lankow. THEN, we can transfer Air in once we have the bases built. Once Burma falls, we will probably send more bombers to China rather than reverse, at least until we have airfields built in India.



String -> RE: India Proposition (3/29/2009 9:22:26 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Q-Ball


Will entering a hex stop the enemy from receiving auto supplies, like at Bombay?



Unless they changed it in recent patches, NO!



John 3rd -> RE: India Proposition (3/29/2009 9:25:14 PM)

OK.  I will hit Changsha tomorrow and then go back to hitting Resources and Oil.  Still am not sure if it serves to cross the river SW of Ichang and attack towards Changsha and Wenchow.  Need to debate on that more.

I THOUGHT the only auto supply in the game came at Karachi and West Coast USA bases.  Are we sure about Bombay?




2ndACR -> RE: India Proposition (3/29/2009 9:38:51 PM)

Bombay........5000 supply and 3000 fuel
Karachi........25000 supply/9000 fuel
Chungking........300 supply
Irkutsk...........2500 supply
LA..........5000 supply/5000 fuel
SF...........25000 supply/25000 fuel
US..........10000 supply/10000 fuel

This is in stock patched to most recent. Mods could be different. Not sure about BigB......might check that out if you are unsure.

Nikmod changes things

Bombay ........none
Karachi.......3750/2250
most chinese bases get some auto supply avg is 200 each
Irkutsk...........same
LA........none
SF.........12500/12500
US........10000/10000



2ndACR -> RE: India Proposition (3/29/2009 9:54:21 PM)

If you can keep hammering the airfields and port to destroy supplies with say half your airforce and the other half killing troops, you might have a shot.......bunch of round robin bombardments will be required though.



Cap Mandrake -> RE: India Thrusts (3/29/2009 10:34:27 PM)

If Bombay has autosupply I can't imagine you could succeed. I suppose with repeated naval bombardment and a large air effort you might be able to begin to destroy more supply than they receive...but that is questionable. It would be a major effort. They could rotate in fresh air groups from Karachi.

Can you imagine what a real siege of Bombay woudl be like [X(]?

After a few months of that I imagine the sacred cattle would have a bit more spring in their step...at least those remaining.



ny59giants -> RE: India Thrusts (3/29/2009 10:45:20 PM)

Bombay and Karachi each get 200 supply and 1500 fuel per day. No more, no less. 



Q-Ball -> RE: India Thrusts (3/29/2009 11:50:24 PM)

200 supply a day isn't tons, but probably enough to at least keep from starving. Not enough to conduct aggressive air ops. Still, I'm not optimistic we can ever take it, which is probably why they locked themselves there to begin with; they had the opportunity to move toward Karachi if they chose.

Without that auto-supply, they probably wouldn't make a stand there.



2ndACR -> RE: India Thrusts (3/30/2009 12:52:28 AM)

Get a couple good nuke bombardments and you can take it........I would have 4,000+ AV ready to try though.



John 3rd -> RE: India Thrusts (3/30/2009 3:34:02 AM)

I think Bombay is worth a try.  Why not leave Karachi alone and concentrate on what we were talking about for steps in strategy.  Grab that Arm--Jaipur--Delhi Line, clean-up the rear, build infrastructure, and try to take Bombay.  We'll have a better chance here then in Karachi (long supply lines and such).

Funny thought...if we grab Bombay do we get the auto-supply?




n01487477 -> RE: India Thrusts (3/30/2009 5:39:29 AM)

quote:


Funny thought...if we grab Bombay do we get the auto-supply?

I believe not, but I haven't tested it ...



FeurerKrieg -> RE: India Proposition (3/30/2009 8:45:20 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: John 3rd
Still am not sure if it serves to cross the river SW of Ichang and attack towards Changsha and Wenchow.  Need to debate on that more.




IMO - this is a good idea only if coordinating with an attack from another direction. I was able to force the Chinese to retreat from Changsha by attacking over the river SW of Ichang WHILE having a bunch of divisions advance from the west of Changsha (Liuchow) and that threatened to cut them off.

But if the attack from Ichang is a singular advance, I think it would be easy for the Chinese to mount a defense northwest of Changsha, and it would be tough for your troops to pull supply over the trail from Ichang.



Rainer79 -> RE: India Proposition (3/30/2009 9:55:54 AM)

The Chinese can't completely retreat from Changsha since quite a few Corps there are static. They probably can muster enough mobile troops to defend their supply line and stop John's attack though.

As for Bombay, do you know how many forts the Allies have already built? Or alternatively if they have expanded the port and/or airfield there?

BTW Bombay and Karachi also receive 200 auto-resources every turn. I do have no idea if they will generate also generate free supply points or just the resources.



ny59giants -> RE: India Proposition (3/30/2009 12:36:57 PM)

I would take all of India and once it is down to Bombay and Karachi you can figure out which one would be the easier to take first. Only the Allied bombers will be able to transfer back to Aden once you take a base. If you leave the Karachi alone then they could run in AK/AP to do an evac.  



John 3rd -> RE: India Proposition (3/30/2009 12:41:38 PM)

Thanks Guys.

Michael--What are you doing up SO early?  Thought you turned to dust at this time of day???  [:D]  Whatever happened to my phone call I was told to wait for? 

Brad and I decided since the Chinese are retreating in that area to cancel the attack across river and move most of the troops to Nanchang where they can react faster by rail to threats and will decide to move them elsewhere once they are redeployed.

Can ANYONE tell me----maybe the Mod DESIGNER---WHY Japanese CAs have deck armor of 50 and WHY 500lb GP bombs carried by B-17s can penetrate 51!!!???    Mister Brian???

On the bright side we sank 5 large AK before a hole was punched in each of our CAs by B-17s flying at 15,000Ft...

(In my best mantra voice)  I will NOT say ANYTHING about B-17s...I will NOT say ANYTHING about B-17s...I will NOT say ANYTHING about B-17s...



vettim89 -> RE: India Proposition (3/30/2009 1:14:41 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: John 3rd

Thanks Guys.

Michael--What are you doing up SO early?  Thought you turned to dust at this time of day???  [:D]  Whatever happened to my phone call I was told to wait for? 

Brad and I decided since the Chinese are retreating in that area to cancel the attack across river and move most of the troops to Nanchang where they can react faster by rail to threats and will decide to move them elsewhere once they are redeployed.

Can ANYONE tell me----maybe the Mod DESIGNER---WHY Japanese CAs have deck armor of 50 and WHY 500lb GP bombs carried by B-17s can penetrate 51!!!???    Mister Brian???

On the bright side we sank 5 large AK before a hole was punched in each of our CAs by B-17s flying at 15,000Ft...

(In my best mantra voice)  I will NOT say ANYTHING about B-17s...I will NOT say ANYTHING about B-17s...I will NOT say ANYTHING about B-17s...


My conversations with Brian have been tht he did very little in terms of modding the ship values. I don't know if the values are stock or from another mod. Some comments:

1. As to Karachi, you need to act now as the Allies can autotransfer LCU from WCUSA to Karachi with a 90 day delay. I suspect your opponents may have done this the moment you troops landed at Viz. If so the AS will climb there very quickly.

2. A lot of the UK air unit reinforcements arrive in Bengal. Taking those bases will deny the Allies these valuable units I think.

3. In this mod, China is a dicey proposition. Most of the Chinese units are static. By taking bases you release these units to move about the country. Also I recomend you not surround bases. Make them retreat. You are better off fighting beat up units with no supply than having them respawn at Chungking in 30 days.



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