Historical Scenarios (Full Version)

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Mad Russian -> Historical Scenarios (2/14/2009 1:52:11 AM)

Historical scenarios. That elusive quest that many of us undertake.

The first thing that needs to happen is to determine what a historical scenario is.

For me personally I use this criteria:

Historical - Order of Battle (OOB) for each side. Preferably written from each sides perspective. A battle map showing the location of the fight and where the units were. At least one After Action Report (AAR) of the action that describes what took place in the battle.

Semi-historical - An Order of Battle for at least one side. This doesn't have to be accurate down to the tank or the man. Just a general idea of what was on at least one side. I would prefer a battle map but a description of where the action took place will work. At least one After Action Report (AAR) that describes what took place in the battle.

Fictional - The scenario is not based on a historical action. While the scenario may have an historically accurate Order Of Battle the battle itself is completely fictional and never happened. The scenario may not be based on anything other than the designers desire to see what happens when two particular force mixtures come together, different types of equipment are set against each other, or a particular type of terrain feature is the site for a battle.

I have posted only 4 historical scenarios out of the 80 scenarios I've got posted on The Scenario Depot II. The other 76 are semi-historical.

For me personally it's hard to meet the requirements I have set for myself as to what makes a scenario historically accurate.

I come very close to believing that there is no such thing as a historically accurate scenario. However, some do get closer than others and so I use these 3 definitions for myself.

My scenarios are all based on historical actions. That means a fight took place and I'm about to try to model that fight to the best of my limited abilities as a scenario designer. To try to put you in the same situation as the original battle took place.

Let's take a look at why I believe that there are no true historically accurate scenarios.

1) Order of Battle (OOB) for each side.

Few engagements have been recorded where both sides have the same level of detail about who was at the fight. On the Eastern Front I have yet to see a single battle that I thought qualified. There are virtually no tactical records in the English language available for comparison. I don't qualify a historical action from only one side.

Ah, but what about the ammo load out for the vehicles? You have any idea that one tank had 3 smoke rounds and that was all for that entire side? Or that 2 of the tanks had only 3 AP rounds between them? What about the leader that started the battle wounded and couldn't move around that much? Or that it was his second in command that directed the fighting that day?


2) A battle map showing the location of the fight and where the units were.

Few engagements were recorded that included maps of where and how the engagement was fought. Again, on the Eastern Front the Soviet side of the actions, for the most part, are missing.

Even if a map is included, discussions of the action tell a tale often not reflected in any topo map. That dip in the ground over there in front of the barn where there the MG went to ground and won the battle.....not showing up on the topo of the area....etc...etc....etc....


3) At least one After Action Report (AAR) of the action that describes what took place in the battle.

While engagements were often recorded that included where and how the engagement was fought many of these records were lost. Again, on the Eastern Front the Soviet side of the actions, for the most part, are missing. At least they are missing in English.

The actions are usually only described from one side. That means anything is possible for the other sides forces and you have no clue. You are deep into "best guess" land here....

This is how my scenarios are when they come with the HSG prefix. No matter which game system you will find them in. I do my best to find the actual facts. After that I do "best guess" and try to recreate the feeling of the action.

Good Hunting.

MR



Mad Russian -> RE: Historical Scenarios (2/14/2009 2:20:21 AM)

When I research a historical scenario I go with the materials I have.

If you wait until you have every book and article on the subject before doing a scenario you'll never finish your first one.

Can my material be wrong? Yes, of course it can.

Can I do a better job of researching with more time and money? Yes, of course I can.

When I release a scenario for general community use am I happy with it? Yes, I am.

My hard and fast rule for doing research is this, you can only spend so much time doing research. There will always be more books to buy to check for more details of the action you want to model. If you keep on buying more and more books, if you can even afford that, when do you ever intend on getting the scenario finished?

Rarely do any two sources agree on all the points of an action. Certainly, if you have AAR's from each side, they will NEVER agree 100%. At least I've yet to see my first set of opposite side AAR's agree in 39 years of making historically based scenarios.

At times you have to make "best guess judgments" about how the action took place and the way it took place. On the Eastern Front, you will far more often than not, have to make a guess as to where it took place as well.

While Stridor's map maker can do tremendously accurate maps that doesn't help make a scenario more historically accurate if you aren't sure where exactly Panevezys is, how large it is, what kind of general terrain surrounds it.

(Panevezys was the location of the Headquartes of the Northwestern Front before Kuznetsov moved it on 25 June 1941)

If there was a small tactical action there that we wanted to model the map would be a totally fictional recreation. Now, could we pick an actual piece of ground to model? Yes we could and that is what I normally do. I make a best guess estimate of where that particular action was fought and I model a piece of actual ground from that spot. Even if I'm wrong the map is of an actual place.

At this point you/I have put your/my scenario together. I playtest it until it allows for each side to win. I want the scenario to be extremely competitive. I want the winner to be the gamer that makes the least mistakes. Or to have the AI at least fight a decent fight and make the gamer wonder at some point if he/she is actually going to win this scenario.

Once you get to the point where you like it then you can release it. Remember that all the comments and recommendations to make it better are just that. Those people aren't the ones that will get the reviews for YOUR scenario. You are. Never make changes to your work based soley on the recommendation of another person. No matter who the person making the recommendations is. Only make changes if those recommendations make sense to you.

Do that and when people say things that aren't flattering about your work it will be okay. Make it for you and when you are happy with it share it with the rest of us. Then it doesn't matter what the rest of the community thinks. You like your own work and that's what really matters. Nothing is for everyone and while I'm sure you've made the best tactical scenario in the history of wargames not everybody else is going to think so.

Research until you've got what information you can get. Fill in the blanks with the best guess you can make or from asking others about what you may be missing. Playtest it out until you are statisfied with it. Then share it with the rest of us.

Do that and the community will respond. And I'll personally thank you for spending your free time trying to make my hobby better for me.

Good Hunting.

MR





benpark -> RE: Historical Scenarios (2/14/2009 3:21:24 AM)

Panevezys can be found on Google Earth (and Google maps). This information is readily used by the map maker that Stridor designed. Like everything you cited, these modern maps are to be used in conjunction with available historical maps, common sense and some limited creative liberties.

Closer to the exact location is better than further in map making. Road networks, whether the area is swampy etc, etc all have a great bearing in giving the player a well designed historical/semi historical scenario.






Mad Russian -> RE: Historical Scenarios (2/14/2009 4:00:49 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: benpark

Panevezys can be found on Google Earth (and Google maps). This information is readily used by the map maker that Stridor designed. Like everything you cited, these modern maps are to be used in conjunction with available historical maps, common sense and some limited creative liberties.

Closer to the exact location is better than further in map making. Road networks, whether the area is swampy etc, etc all have a great bearing in giving the player a well designed historical/semi historical scenario.



Yes, of course. Closer is better. I normally use pictures of the area that I intend on making maps for if I can't identify a village but know approximately where it is.

Googling for the area near the largest city will often get you photographs of the area. Nowdays though Google Earth can often find what you are looking for if the place is large enough.

But again, an action that says it happened near Panevezys really tells you what about the 1km x 1km area that PCK allows for the action to take place? You really have no real idea. You have to make some assumptions. Or spend more money and time on a scenario you are making for others for free.....

At some point you either have to do the scenario with what you have or you keep on doing research. So far I've seen maybe 3 designers that have used MM to make maps for new scenarios. Not exactly an avalanche of new work to go by. That should increase as the MM is used by more designers.

Good Hunting.

MR



Mad Russian -> RE: Historical Scenarios (2/16/2009 3:50:17 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: benpark

Panevezys can be found on Google Earth (and Google maps). This information is readily used by the map maker that Stridor designed. Like everything you cited, these modern maps are to be used in conjunction with available historical maps, common sense and some limited creative liberties.

Closer to the exact location is better than further in map making. Road networks, whether the area is swampy etc, etc all have a great bearing in giving the player a well designed historical/semi historical scenario.



Very good. You can find relatively large towns, with a Russian spelling, on Google Earth.

It's not near so easy if the place has 30 inhabitants and the spelling is in German.

Let's see if you can find this village.

Werchne Kumsky, Ukraine. The name I'm assuming is in German phonetics. I'd be happy with any kind of spelling that comes close to something I can read.

There was an extremely important tank battle that took place in this small village.

My version of Google Earth and Mapquest have nothing to report for that name in the Ukraine.

Good Hunting.

MR



Mobius -> RE: Historical Scenarios (2/16/2009 4:26:40 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mad Russian
Werchne Kumsky, Ukraine. The name I'm assuming is in German phonetics. I'd be happy with any kind of spelling that comes close to something I can read.
What date?



benpark -> RE: Historical Scenarios (2/16/2009 4:38:31 AM)

Winter Storm.

Try "Verkhne-Kumskiy"

Try this write up on a CMBB scenario first to get some more clues:

http://www.blowtorchscenarios.com/Baeke%20Battles_Der%20Mensch%20on%20the%20Ost%20Front/Baeke_Battles_Der_Mensch_In_The_East_series.htm

Also, go to Microsoft Maps:

http://maps.live.com/#JndoZXJlMT1WZXJraG5lLUt1bXNraXkmYmI9NDkuNzQ1NzgxMzA2MTU1NyU3ZTQ5LjI2MjY5NTMxMjUlN2U0NS44NjM3NDc1ODE5Njk0JTdlMzguNDQxMTYyMTA5Mzc1

You can also find a map here (3/4 of the way down):

http://www.armchairgeneral.com/rkkaww2/maps/maps1942SW.htm

That took a good 10 minutes to do. You can now transfer the Microsoft Map to the area of Google Maps in the MM and make a map of the exact area.

Edit- You can probably type in "Verkhnekumskiy" on GE, as that is how the village is spelled when I cross referenced it with the Microsoft Map.



Mraah -> RE: Historical Scenarios (2/16/2009 4:50:09 AM)


MR,

For an interactive map and downloading (free) goto :

http://maps.poehali.org/en/

Rob



benpark -> RE: Historical Scenarios (2/16/2009 4:54:35 AM)

хутор Верхнекумский

In Russian.



Mad Russian -> RE: Historical Scenarios (2/16/2009 5:12:28 AM)

LOL!

You just proved my point.

You gave me

Verkhne-Kumskiy

Verkhnekumskiy

хутор Верхнекумский

Not any of which did Google like.

First off I know of very few people that read Russian. Secondly, unless you know where to look you have no clue about the whereabouts of what you are even looking for. Third the name in the German accounts doesn't match any of the names you used to do your searches with. It didn't hurt that we already knew it was in the Ukraine and I could narrow it down even further than that with text.

I found it extremely interesting that you sent me to a CMBB scenario to get a map. George does excellent work I already know of his website and his work in Bäke's career. I've playtested some of them for George.

As I said this was a famous tank fight.

You are much better at finding Russian places than I am. I don't have the advantage in speaking Russian or of knowing that the German phonetics will always look like when translated. It takes me a bit. There are actually some very good Russian/Ukrainian maps that are extremely detailed but they are completely in Russian. So, if I know where I'm going they do great. If on the other hand you don't know where you are going they don't help.

Just as Google Earth doesn't have an answer for this village in either the English or the Russian names you used.

What is the possibility to set up a group of gamers that could do map locations for Russian place names here on the site?

Good Hunting.

MR






Mad Russian -> RE: Historical Scenarios (2/16/2009 5:19:14 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: benpark

Winter Storm.

Try "Verkhne-Kumskiy"

Try this write up on a CMBB scenario first to get some more clues:

http://www.blowtorchscenarios.com/Baeke%20Battles_Der%20Mensch%20on%20the%20Ost%20Front/Baeke_Battles_Der_Mensch_In_The_East_series.htm


This is a map that another gamer made. While in this case I would trust George's research I wouldn't normally use that.

quote:


Also, go to Microsoft Maps:

http://maps.live.com/#JndoZXJlMT1WZXJraG5lLUt1bXNraXkmYmI9NDkuNzQ1NzgxMzA2MTU1NyU3ZTQ5LjI2MjY5NTMxMjUlN2U0NS44NjM3NDc1ODE5Njk0JTdlMzguNDQxMTYyMTA5Mzc1


This map has a single line on it to show the street layout. That's real helpful.

quote:


You can also find a map here (3/4 of the way down):

http://www.armchairgeneral.com/rkkaww2/maps/maps1942SW.htm

That took a good 10 minutes to do. You can now transfer the Microsoft Map to the area of Google Maps in the MM and make a map of the exact area.


These maps are good if you know enough Russian to tell what it is you are looking at. Sometimes that works for me sometimes it doesn't. For the average researcher, without the kind of books I have in German to cross reference where to start, there is no chance to find these places.

quote:


Edit- You can probably type in "Verkhnekumskiy" on GE, as that is how the village is spelled when I cross referenced it with the Microsoft Map.


I tried all your place names on GE and it took none of them. Not even the Russian one.

Good Hunting.

MR



benpark -> RE: Historical Scenarios (2/16/2009 5:39:02 AM)

What are you complaining about? We just found your town. It seems to have upset you. Maybe your point is that you don't like the map maker. Fine, don't use it.




Mraah -> RE: Historical Scenarios (2/16/2009 6:26:35 AM)

This interactive book might help ... here's the link ... doesn't have all the pages but the book mentions other locations ... might help narrow it down :

http://books.google.com/books?id=m029bx-N9zoC&pg=PA175&lpg=PA175&dq=11+panzer+regiment&source=web&ots=ili2XIM7GI&sig=YGaPsmSkdkXP2sS5GTgUcSpWSZ0&hl=en&ei=bAaZSczFN8-g-gbvyfyACQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=5&ct=result

A long winded link but it works and it goes to the page I want you to read ... p 175.

Rob

EDIT NOTE : Note the the part about "endless columns of tanks, pouring out from Klykhov, climbed the gentle slopes of the Aksay Valley"



Mad Russian -> RE: Historical Scenarios (2/16/2009 6:36:21 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: benpark

What are you complaining about? We just found your town. It seems to have upset you. Maybe your point is that you don't like the map maker. Fine, don't use it.




I'm not complaining. I knew where it was.

I'm not upset, nor am I ranting about anything.

This is a thread about how to make and research historical scenarios.

My premise in the first post of this thread is that there are times when you don't have all the information as accurately as you would like. That shouldn't stop you from making a scenario.

Your post in my Bussard scenario thread was that if designers spent a bit more time and money they could do them right.

In this case, the scenario is for a CM battle. I'll more than likely use George's map. Since he already has one made and he and I work on lot's of scenarios together.

What might be interesting to see is if we can actually find the hill that the Bussard fight took place on.

I didn't think that was possible. It more than likely isn't with my Russian map reading skills. It might actually be with some of the skills displayed in this thread by some of you.

I can pretty much find what I'm looking for in NWE. Even, in many cases, just a hill with a name on it. I can't do that in Russia without being able to read Russian. Some of the rest of you might be able to do that though. It would be interesting if we could actually locate the hill where that fight took place.

Not sure we want to take the time but it would be an interesting test of just how much map availability and accuracy has increased over the past few years.

Mobius and I have done some pinpoint map work for some of his Kursk scenarios. That turned out quite well from my POV. So is this thread.

We seem to have gotten onto a wrong footing. That's not something I want to continue with. So, if I've done or said anything that is a cause of that I apologize. I'd much rather work together than throw rocks at each other.

A truce if you will.

Good Hunting.

MR



Mraah -> RE: Historical Scenarios (2/16/2009 8:32:38 AM)

You know ... I can't believe why this was so hard to find [&:]

Goto : http://maps.google.com/

search : verkhnekumskiy


I verified it's postion via these operation maps :

http://www.theeasternfront.co.uk/Battles/operationwinterstorm.htm

I don't have Google Earth handy (at work) ... try the same name ... verkhnekumskiy

Hope that helps,

In the future ... drop the "-"

Rob


EDIT : I see benpark updated one of his earlier posts ... he found it earlier.



Mraah -> RE: Historical Scenarios (2/16/2009 8:42:18 AM)


Thanks Ben for your help ...

I hope at least the operation maps can help.



Blond_Knight -> RE: Historical Scenarios (2/16/2009 12:18:46 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: benpark

Maybe your point is that you don't like the map maker. Fine, don't use it.


Um can I please use it?



Erik Rutins -> RE: Historical Scenarios (2/16/2009 12:38:27 PM)

By the way, on Verkhne Kumskiy, the battles took place all around that area. I recall when we were doing the research for the Winterstorm campaign, we had to abstract those because of the size and multi-day nature of the battlefield vs. what we could do at the time with a small campaign and 1km maps. But there was definitely a great series of both tank and infantry battles around that town.



Erik Rutins -> RE: Historical Scenarios (2/16/2009 12:41:32 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Mad Russian
We seem to have gotten onto a wrong footing. That's not something I want to continue with. So, if I've done or said anything that is a cause of that I apologize. I'd much rather work together than throw rocks at each other.
A truce if you will.


Yes, please.

Granted, you can't always pinpoint the location of a battle, but when you've got a town name it's generally fairly easy to localize it and the Map Maker is revolutionary in its ability to interface with the single best online (current) map database in existence. I don't think there's any question that it's a huge improvement for most scenario designs, but of course some scenarios will still have to be "representative" due to lack of info.

Regards,

- Erik



rickier65 -> RE: Historical Scenarios (2/16/2009 3:01:46 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Blond_Knight


quote:

ORIGINAL: benpark

Maybe your point is that you don't like the map maker. Fine, don't use it.


Um can I please use it?


Blond_Knight,

There used to be a link to a beta version in Main Forum, but it seems to have been taken down. It's pretty much finished, I beleive (well as much as any sw is 'finished'. Stridor hasn't been posting much last few days, you might drop him a pm. I beleive he last posted that he was getting pretty busy with his work, so he might not be monitoring forums as much as he had.

Rick



rickier65 -> RE: Historical Scenarios (2/16/2009 3:19:27 PM)

MR, I've read through the criteria you use for historical, semi-historical, and fictional.

It's pretty conservative. But at least you do have some hard and fast criteria to use. Based on your criteria there would seem to be very few historical scenarios.

I agree with you on the difficulty of pinning down the data needed to satisfy your historical classification. Espcially on Russian Front (though on this scale it's difficult anywhere). I had a set of topos at one time, but it's amazingly difficult to read them in Russian (MM's GE interface has really helped in that respect). But just as hard is getting Russian OOB information. Seems to be a number of sources for low-level German OOB's, but not so much for Russian forces at this level of detail.

On one thread you mentioned a CM ladder (6 people I think) where is that?

Rick



benpark -> RE: Historical Scenarios (2/16/2009 3:55:39 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mad Russian


quote:

ORIGINAL: benpark

What are you complaining about? We just found your town. It seems to have upset you. Maybe your point is that you don't like the map maker. Fine, don't use it.




I'm not complaining. I knew where it was.

I'm not upset, nor am I ranting about anything.

This is a thread about how to make and research historical scenarios.

My premise in the first post of this thread is that there are times when you don't have all the information as accurately as you would like. That shouldn't stop you from making a scenario.

Your post in my Bussard scenario thread was that if designers spent a bit more time and money they could do them right.\

A truce if you will.

Good Hunting.

MR


Truce, fine- but the "war" was all on your side. I had no problem with you.

You took one tiny element of something I had written and turned it into something far out of proportion to what it was. More money helps purchase things like books etc. More time allows for research. We do with what we have. I have a deficit of both at times. That doesn't hinder my interest in moving forward with researching something. I did not write that these things are absolutely necessary for what you do , I do. I also wrote a lot of other things as well. None are untrue, but not all are within our grasp at all times. So no need to be upset about it, right?

What I don't appreciate is personal snipes and wasting my time. If you knew where the place was, don't ask others to find it for you to prove an imaginary point. If you may have noticed, I'm trying to redo the trees for this game (amongst other things). This is a LARGE job and takes LOTS of time. It's less than fun, and I have little free time left for a while. To be sent on a wild goose chase for your entertainment is...not cool, friendo. I have little patience for wasting time in any aspect of my life. I was attempting to help you so that you could do some work on one of your scenarios. That's an abuse of my good will towards you. To find out that this all was to "prove a point" is well, pointless.

As to your basic premise that the map maker can't find the exact position of battles, I believe through experience that it does a very good job. Will there be things it can't do, sure. I made a terrain map of your battle area last night in about 10 minutes. The actual height of the area of the town. Like I said before, closer is better than farther as far as terrain goes. If you made a map that was 1k off from the actual locale rather than 10k, that's pretty good to me. To not learn it as a scenario designer is an unfortunate decision.

That's all for me for a while.




Erik Rutins -> RE: Historical Scenarios (2/16/2009 7:00:36 PM)

Thanks Ben.

To everyone: I just want to add in general that the less friction we have, the better. I'd hate to lose any of the talented volunteers that have contributed so much to Panzer Command of their own free time and good will. It's not worth letting personalities or egos get in the way of some of the amazing stuff we can do here together.

We can help each other without stepping on toes, remember that the internet is a very poor medium for judging people's intentions or inner thoughts. Always assume the best until proven otherwise. Constructive criticism should always be taken as a compliment, that the person offering it had enough interest in your work to post.

Steve seems to be trying to bury the hatchet. Let's get back to the fun stuff.

Regards,

- Erik



Mad Russian -> RE: Historical Scenarios (2/17/2009 12:21:43 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: benpark

Truce, fine- but the "war" was all on your side. I had no problem with you.


I can see that.

quote:


What I don't appreciate is personal snipes and wasting my time. If you knew where the place was, don't ask others to find it for you to prove an imaginary point.


The point is far from imaginary. Nor was there a personal snipe at anyone. What you said about the money and the time, may have been an off hand remark to you, but it can keep gamers with 3 books in their library from even thinking about making scenarios. I fight that fight all the time with new scenario designers.

quote:


If you may have noticed, I'm trying to redo the trees for this game (amongst other things). This is a LARGE job and takes LOTS of time. It's less than fun, and I have little free time left for a while.


I know that your aware that I've posted in that thread. Nothing is more valuable than free time. That's my own quote. I'm well aware of the value we put on what we give away.

quote:


To be sent on a wild goose chase for your entertainment is...not cool, friendo.


Sorry you choose to look at that as a wild goose chase. It certainly wasn't for my entertainment. I said I knew where it was. I wanted to see if there was enough detail to do a historical map.

The one thing that came out of it, for me, is exactly one of my main points. There is, from what I've seen, no possible way to do a map of that village for a scenario. The best I ever saw was a single line. Now back to the discussion that started this tread in the first place....how is that going to be historical?

How is map maker going to make that okay? I don't think it can.

I'm not on some kind of vendetta attack here on map maker. My one and only statement about map maker concerning historical scenarios is that it is only as good as your ability to find the locations you're looking for. If you can't map maker can't magically conjure it up for you.

quote:


I have little patience for wasting time in any aspect of my life. I was attempting to help you so that you could do some work on one of your scenarios. That's an abuse of my good will towards you. To find out that this all was to "prove a point" is well, pointless.


Well since you didn't know what my goal was I'm very interested to see that you know it's all pointless. I consider all the help a great assist in this particular scenario. As I said from what I see I'll more than likely use the map you directed me to a blowtorch scenarios. If you look you'll see some HSG scenarios on that site as well.

quote:


As to your basic premise that the map maker can't find the exact position of battles, I believe through experience that it does a very good job. Will there be things it can't do, sure. I made a terrain map of your battle area last night in about 10 minutes. The actual height of the area of the town. Like I said before, closer is better than farther as far as terrain goes. If you made a map that was 1k off from the actual locale rather than 10k, that's pretty good to me. To not learn it as a scenario designer is an unfortunate decision.

That's all for me for a while.




That's all for me on this subject period.

Good Hunting.

MR



benpark -> RE: Historical Scenarios (2/17/2009 12:31:56 AM)

Friends, then.

I will be happy to make a map for you for a future scenario.



Mad Russian -> RE: Historical Scenarios (2/17/2009 12:46:54 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: benpark

Friends, then.

I will be happy to make a map for you for a future scenario.


There was one thing I did forget to say in all that earlier...

Thanks to those that supplied answers and tried to help.


All of you. It's greatly appreciated.

The offer to help with scenarios goes both ways. As I've mentioned before Mobius and I have collaborated on some scenarios already.

In CM I guess I've helped others with far more scenarios than I ever produced on my own. Hopefully we can get that same kind of a situation going here for PC.

Good Hunting.

MR



mansim -> RE: Historical Scenarios (6/19/2016 1:48:17 PM)

Are there any people interested in interactive medieval historical battles? For example a website where you could create any army battle, as it was in history and watch the fight?



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