RE: AI improvements? Siege improvements? (Full Version)

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JastaV -> RE: AI improvements? Siege improvements? (3/15/2009 3:54:54 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Blueprint
Your definition of choice opens new perpectives on the liberty concept.


Indeed we had suggestions of choices that are killing any perspective for the future of games publishers as players.

Firstly, berto suggested to go after "Hot-seat Solitaire!"

Secondly, Stwa recommended to give up with WIA in favour of BoA.

I opened the thread in the perspective to discuss AI improvement chances even at the cost of hard scenarios command coding duties, that when a real engine upgrade should fail in AI improvement.
Thanks to the accurate contribution of many ones we went off-topic and but accusations and insults exchange we are now discussing two isses:
1. The useless of WIA, as according to Stwa.
2. The useless of PC game supported by AI, as suggested by berto.

I think it is a bit excessive! Isn't it?[;)]



krr1313 -> RE: AI improvements? Siege improvements? (3/15/2009 4:02:45 PM)

Like tevans6220 I'm just a lurker here who owns BoA2.  I've been visiting the forums lately since I purchased CoG:EE, and happened to came across this thread.

So here is my take on the ai.  I used to be able to beat the ai in the game easily.  After the IQ drop caused by actually reading this entire thread, I no longer can. [:D]  Mission accomplished guys! [&o]



JastaV -> RE: AI improvements? Siege improvements? (3/15/2009 4:04:00 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Stwa

To be honest, I think most of posts in this thread DONT fall into the "necessary" category. I am guitly myself. But how many times are you going to call Gshock a liar? Aren't you on record already?




It's Blueprint's style to insult and charging opponents with layer and incompetence accusations, rather than going after the discussion of the problem.
Then, when Clovis, (aka Blueprint) is not able to produce explanations or to provide fixes to troubles when talking in name of AGeod, he prefers to deny the problem at all.


Indeed, when Clovis discusses problems he just makes show of all his incompetence:

quote:

Clovis said:
About the Pequot war scenario:
2) The AGE AI is able to deal with these variations. The command event was introduced in this scenario, as it was openly discussend in Ageod forum, because the pequot AI wasn't sufficiently aggressive. the evnt is just inciting pequot Ai to take the offensive. Now, if the Pequot hadn't taken any offensive in reality, the war would never had occurred. And there would have been no need to simulate this.



Now, there's not command to improve Pequot AI controlled aggressiveness in that scenario files.
The example I was quoting is GBR side related!
GBR, evt_nam_Boost_AI event is used to increase British side Aggressiveness and not the Indian, Pequot warriors one as Clovis stated




JastaV -> Is WIA playable? (3/15/2009 4:12:09 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: GShock

Stwa, mine is the distinct point of view of a CUSTOMER who could never play this game till the end due to a bug.

New game, bug, report, end of game, new patch. New game, bug, report, end of game, new patch. It is a loop.

In a game/scenario there's no opponent,
in another there's no contest,
in another there's a move bug where transport moves and cargo stays,
in another the AI doesn't attack,
in another the distant unload doesn't work,
in another the replacements do not arrive,
in another can't build a fort even though i have supplies and arty,
in another the AI is not defending its objectives,
in another ships dont get repaired,
in another a stack is said to arrive somewhere and it doesn't arrive at all,
in another, i siege the settlement, the besieged become stronger and i become weaker,
in another the game crashes, asks me to write report and the application opening outlook express crashes...

It was my choice to leave the AgeOD betas, that's why i have no hate for anyone and no regrets...but the bugs are there, oh yes they are.




Is WIA playable?

May be most people here is ready to swear WIA is playable just because we can move units around the map without CTD or fatal errors as it happens with other Ageod titles!

It's some 6 months I'm going after WIA major scenarios......

Few Acres of Snow, British side
1st Campaign game wasted because of the Halifax supply transportation bug.
2nd Campaign game wasted because of the Halifax supply transportation bug a second time.
Trouble now fixed.
3th Campaign game wasted because of the inability to move troops from Ticonderoga to Montreal.
Problem known, till waiting for a fix.

The Whites of their eyes, Americans side
1st Campaign game. It was my first Campaign game and it was wasted by many bugs including the oddity of AI.
Most bugs now fixed

The whites of their eyes, British side
1st Campaign game wasted because of the Philadelphia bug.
2nd Campaign game wasted because of the Philadelphia bug, (yes a second time!)
Troubles reported, till waiting for a fix.

That without need to mention siege related troubles...... or the ugly show of AI Major Forces destroyed on the field by harsh weather conditions!
Is WIA playable?
Yes, I spent many hours playing it without experiencing stability troubles common to other titles, (WW1).
Anyway, I did not enjoy it because of so many "incidents" that wasted my game sessions.
Is then worth to dedicate hours to build up a strategy when bugs and unpredictable engine issues will disrupt it?
I can accept to see my plans disrupted by a strong AI opposition, not by oddities!
Not 9 months from game public release![:-]




Blueprint -> RE: AI improvements? Siege improvements? (3/15/2009 4:28:15 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: JastaV


quote:

ORIGINAL: Stwa

To be honest, I think most of posts in this thread DONT fall into the "necessary" category. I am guitly myself. But how many times are you going to call Gshock a liar? Aren't you on record already?




It's Blueprint's style to insult and charging opponents with layer and incompetence accusations, rather than going after the discussion of the problem.
Then, when Clovis, (aka Blueprint) is not able to produce explanations or to provide fixes to troubles when talking in name of AGeod, he prefers to deny the problem at all.


Indeed, when Clovis discusses problems he just makes show of all his incompetence:

quote:

Clovis said:
About the Pequot war scenario:
2) The AGE AI is able to deal with these variations. The command event was introduced in this scenario, as it was openly discussend in Ageod forum, because the pequot AI wasn't sufficiently aggressive. the evnt is just inciting pequot Ai to take the offensive. Now, if the Pequot hadn't taken any offensive in reality, the war would never had occurred. And there would have been no need to simulate this.



Now, there's not command to improve Pequot AI controlled aggressiveness in that scenario files.
The example I was quoting is GBR side related!
GBR, evt_nam_Boost_AI event is used to increase British side Aggressiveness and not the Indian, Pequot warriors one as Clovis stated




You're right. Inverting sides change all about the problem of AI behaviour and the use of AI commands for the AGE engine [>:]

For my own, when you posted here, I've just written 3 more command for the AI in my mod. Each spends time in different ways, isn't it?



Blueprint -> RE: Is WIA playable? (3/15/2009 4:31:04 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: JastaV


quote:

ORIGINAL: GShock

Stwa, mine is the distinct point of view of a CUSTOMER who could never play this game till the end due to a bug.

New game, bug, report, end of game, new patch. New game, bug, report, end of game, new patch. It is a loop.

In a game/scenario there's no opponent,
in another there's no contest,
in another there's a move bug where transport moves and cargo stays,
in another the AI doesn't attack,
in another the distant unload doesn't work,
in another the replacements do not arrive,
in another can't build a fort even though i have supplies and arty,
in another the AI is not defending its objectives,
in another ships dont get repaired,
in another a stack is said to arrive somewhere and it doesn't arrive at all,
in another, i siege the settlement, the besieged become stronger and i become weaker,
in another the game crashes, asks me to write report and the application opening outlook express crashes...

It was my choice to leave the AgeOD betas, that's why i have no hate for anyone and no regrets...but the bugs are there, oh yes they are.




Is WIA playable?

May be most people here is ready to swear WIA is playable just because we can move units around the map without CTD or fatal errors as it happens with other Ageod titles!

It's some 6 months I'm going after WIA major scenarios......

Few Acres of Snow, British side
1st Campaign game wasted because of the Halifax supply transportation bug.
2nd Campaign game wasted because of the Halifax supply transportation bug a second time.
Trouble now fixed.
3th Campaign game wasted because of the inability to move troops from Ticonderoga to Montreal.
Problem known, till waiting for a fix.

The Whites of their eyes, Americans side
1st Campaign game. It was my first Campaign game and it was wasted by many bugs including the oddity of AI.
Most bugs now fixed

The whites of their eyes, British side
1st Campaign game wasted because of the Philadelphia bug.
2nd Campaign game wasted because of the Philadelphia bug, (yes a second time!)
Troubles reported, till waiting for a fix.

That without need to mention siege related troubles...... or the ugly show of AI Major Forces destroyed on the field by harsh weather conditions!
Is WIA playable?
Yes, I spent many hours playing it without experiencing stability troubles common to other titles, (WW1).
Anyway, I did not enjoy it because of so many "incidents" that wasted my game sessions.
Is then worth to dedicate hours to build up a strategy when bugs and unpredictable engine issues will disrupt it?
I can accept to see my plans disrupted by a strong AI opposition, not by oddities!
Not 9 months from game public release![:-]




So do us a favour: play other games. There are certainly better, with stronger AI, nicer maps, with smaller bugs than the huge ones you're reporting here ( The Philadelphia bug! the Halifax supply transportation bug!!and beware the worst of all the Ticonderoga bug, this one is so terrific!!!) . And don't buy any other AGEOD title. Save your money.






JastaV -> RE: AI improvements? Siege improvements? (3/15/2009 4:44:14 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Blueprint

For my own, when you posted here, I've just written 3 more command for the AI in my mod. Each spends time in different ways, isn't it?


GREAT![:D]
Indeed, I wrote a mess of new commands too, edited new units and reworked the Winter Quarters routine!
I did not say my WQ routine is better; just different!

Guess, we should manage to organize a files exchange........
Thinking of a Cold War times style exchange![;)]



Blueprint -> RE: AI improvements? Siege improvements? (3/15/2009 4:50:36 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: JastaV


quote:

ORIGINAL: Blueprint

For my own, when you posted here, I've just written 3 more command for the AI in my mod. Each spends time in different ways, isn't it?


GREAT![:D]
Indeed, I wrote a mess of new commands too, edited new units and reworked the Winter Quarters routine!
I did not say my WQ routine is better; just different!

Guess, we should manage to organize a files exchange........
Thinking of a Cold War times style exchange![;)]




Do us another favour: explain us why you're spending time to mod a totally broken game. I would like to know how you can conciliate your statement on Ageod games ( broken, unacurrate, Ai challenged) with the painflul modding task. Certainly not because in reality there are no better computer wargames on the market....whatever you can write here and there.

You could try fine other games: gary Grigsby's one are really good, and there are new patches on the way... you know, the usual AI and feature fixes. I'm not fond of Forge of Freedom but that's just because of my personal taste. each new game from the developer is refinig the concept, like the Age engine

Have you tried Panther games too? You should, the best WW2 operational experience.GFX are a little sub par but not that much.At first, it hadn't supply rules, introduced since the last opus.

Or this good old TOAW3, yet improved since 5 years. The developper is calling his AI "elmer" but has got real results by working on it.

Don't be obsessed with AGEOD games. Search for a better product. I tried those, and I stand with AGEOD AGE engine, but as i'm like AGEOD, always wrong, I don't doubt you 'll find the perfect product.



GShock -> RE: AI improvements? Siege improvements? (3/15/2009 5:16:53 PM)


The difference, Stwa/Blueprint, is that the Empires in Arms volounteers do not say the game is not bugged like the AgeOD volounteers do.

The typical AgeOD volounteer either:
denies the existence of bugs
blames it on supposed second reasons the poster has
says the team didn't receive any report
says it's all wad.

Furthenmore, the guy at EiA is a lone dev and he's released ONE unfinished product.
AgeOD has released 3 in a row.

Of course the situations are different.



JastaV -> RE: AI improvements? Siege improvements? (3/15/2009 5:23:23 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Blueprint

Do us another favour: explain us why you're spending time to mod a totally broken game. I would like to know how you can conciliate your statement on Ageod games ( broken, unacurrate, Ai challenged) with the painflul modding task. Certainly not because in reality there are no better computer wargames on the market....whatever you can write here and there.



I already did:

quote:

I never spent so many time after a strategy game as I did after AGEod titles!
That modding; that playing: mostly modding and play-testing indeed.
Did that because looking to denigrate AGEod and its products?
No!
No, No!
I would not spent months modding NCP and helping the program developers in such a perspective!
My attention and care to AGEod games is dictated by the great potential the games have.


1. I spent so many time to become confident with AGEod games codes: Now, it's time to use what I learned!
2. Ageod games have a superb potentiality and improvement chance.
3. My Mods are so beloved You cannot stay without it, as documented by your endless requests for their public availability. Isn't it!

Now some suggestions for you, helping me decide giving up with AGEod............

1. Ageod could re-edit the full codes pool: at that point I'll give up for sure. I'll not waste 6 more months to learn the new ones.
2. Ageod could destroy the "improvement chances reason": that publishing playable, perfect games.
3. No, stopping asking for my mods will not work. I'm modding for my pleasure... a thing you should already know!
4. The most important: .................



Stwa -> RE: AI improvements? Siege improvements? (3/15/2009 5:32:12 PM)

Well,

As promised I played my BoA game. I kept trying to set up a beeg seige, per request, but the AI (British) won't have it. However, I did have some killer stacks collide. If you guys can't get beeg stacks like this in the WiA game anymore (you could at one point), then you are really missing out. I had to chop out the battle report from the screen shot because it was larger in bytes than the Matrix limit.

This battle was savage complete with French warships bombarding the port. Anyway, enjoy!..

[image]local://upfiles/17700/3F593689A5EA4C718C32C4907673C962.jpg[/image]



Blueprint -> RE: AI improvements? Siege improvements? (3/15/2009 5:35:16 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: JastaV


quote:

ORIGINAL: Blueprint

Do us another favour: explain us why you're spending time to mod a totally broken game. I would like to know how you can conciliate your statement on Ageod games ( broken, unacurrate, Ai challenged) with the painflul modding task. Certainly not because in reality there are no better computer wargames on the market....whatever you can write here and there.



I already did:

quote:

I never spent so many time after a strategy game as I did after AGEod titles!
That modding; that playing: mostly modding and play-testing indeed.
Did that because looking to denigrate AGEod and its products?
No!
No, No!
I would not spent months modding NCP and helping the program developers in such a perspective!
My attention and care to AGEod games is dictated by the great potential the games have.


1. I spent so many time to become confident with AGEod games codes: Now, it's time to use what I learned!
2. Ageod games have a superb potentiality and improvement chance.
3. My Mods are so beloved You cannot stay without it, as documented by your endless requests for their public availability. Isn't it!

Now some suggestions for you, helping me decide giving up with AGEod............

1. Ageod could re-edit the full codes pool: at that point I'll give up for sure. I'll not waste 6 more months to learn the new ones.
2. Ageod could destroy the "improvement chances reason": that publishing playable, perfect games.
3. No, stopping asking for my mods will not work. I'm modding for my pleasure... a thing you should already know!


JastaV: your ego is just losing you. I don't care for your mod and frankly I didn't took ever the time to download your NCP one before you removed it. I just alluded this because someone deciding to remove his work just because he wants obviously punish AGEOD is such a childish move I just wished to point out.

I'm not speaking on behalf of AGEOD, contrary to your belief. Your modding work may remain for your own use or not but I don't really think this to be more than a footnote for Ageod.

But it's terrific to see you're now modding to play WIA when dispareging it publicly day after day for being unplayable. the less it can be said this is showing the real value of WIA, whatever you can say...and your real motives about your posts. [8|]

like this one a few day ago:

it seem like VGN will soon be available: based on past experience, AGEod customers can expect VGN will be buggy as hell on release and the AI will be dumb as a bag of hammers, so customers would not bother with it at all!






Blueprint -> RE: AI improvements? Siege improvements? (3/15/2009 5:37:51 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: GShock


The difference, Stwa/Blueprint, is that the Empires in Arms volounteers do not say the game is not bugged like the AgeOD volounteers do.

The typical AgeOD volounteer either:
denies the existence of bugs
blames it on supposed second reasons the poster has
says the team didn't receive any report
says it's all wad.

Furthenmore, the guy at EiA is a lone dev and he's released ONE unfinished product.
AgeOD has released 3 in a row.

Of course the situations are different.



To gain time, you should just add on your signature: it's AGEOD fault. Easier rather than circonvoluted arguments to get the appearence to have the last word.

between your post and the JastaV' glorious explanation of his commitment to work one hundred hours to mod a flawed engine , all has been said. Arsan was right. You're playing secretly AGEOD and disparage in public, lke 2 angry ex betatesters.What hypocrisy.



JastaV -> RE: AI improvements? Siege improvements? (3/15/2009 5:44:46 PM)


Do not forget point 4!

4. The most important: .................



Stwa -> RE: AI improvements? Siege improvements? (3/15/2009 6:13:20 PM)

Well, after the battle, Clinton retreated North somehow. But some poor schmucks got caught in New York. I might try to siege them into starvation, but one thing I do know, sieges generally work better when the port is blockaded.

There is a tempation to just blow away what's left with the French fleets.



[image]local://upfiles/17700/E8BA66A9BBAB43FF98EC7986D775AB43.jpg[/image]



Blueprint -> RE: AI improvements? Siege improvements? (3/15/2009 6:14:39 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: JastaV


Do not forget point 4!

4. The most important: .................



your WIA gamespot reviews?

the name of people who helped you in NCP work and you rebuked?

or last, paraphrasing yourself, Is then worth to dedicate hours to build up a mod when bugs and unpredictable engine issues will disrupt it?






Stwa -> RE: AI improvements? Siege improvements? (3/16/2009 8:15:30 AM)

JastaV, Gshock,

You guys need to try some new titles. May I suggest CCMT. Its fun, and it doesn't cost alot. [:)]


Blueprint,

You need to stick with Ageod. [;)]




[image]local://upfiles/17700/4C4FB80177F940DF9AF1231B0A7E7404.jpg[/image]



JastaV -> RE: AI improvements? Siege improvements? (3/16/2009 9:58:10 AM)

I know CC series: I really enjoyed the title dedicated to Operation Market Garden, it was a lot of time ago.
Looking to the picture you uploaded things did not changed a lot!
What as regard the "campaign" structure linking missions: did it improved?



Stwa -> RE: AI improvements? Siege improvements? (3/16/2009 11:19:18 AM)

To get a campaign game you would have to get CCWAR which is here at Matrix. It has improved from the CC2 days. It has 64 campaign maps and a complete strategic layer.

CCMT does NOT have a strategic game and only allows single battles, one at a time, but that's my preference now days.



Stwa -> RE: AI improvements? Siege improvements? (3/16/2009 12:35:19 PM)

OK,

I drug WiA off the backup disk, and installed it with the 1.04C update. I cranked up a 1776 scenario with a view to check in on the AI, since that is what this thread was supposed to be about. I remember WiA of the past having an aggressive AI, almost to a fault.

I play the Americans and I retreat from New England to New York, one of my favorite ploys. As luck would have it Howe gives chase all the way to New York where I am waiting for him. My (Washington's) force is about 15,000 strong. The AI (Howe) has a force of about 5,000 men. The AI attacks. Its a draw. Next month. The AI attacks. Its a draw. Next month I counterattack and wipe Howe off the map.

Two things, at least for this small example. The AI is still pretty darn aggressive, and he seems to have completely forgotton about Keeler Stacks.



[image]local://upfiles/17700/CE95E014D542411EA09721693ED937EC.jpg[/image]



Blueprint -> RE: AI improvements? Siege improvements? (3/16/2009 1:07:34 PM)

since 2006, there's an option in AGE engine for a less agrressive AI. Do you tried it?



Stwa -> RE: AI improvements? Siege improvements? (3/16/2009 1:34:43 PM)

The game above was just played with the install defaults. If you are meaning the options boxes, yes, I have tried. I used to think WiA AI had more roots from the ACW game where aggression is more agreeable. So it always seemed at least more aggressive than base BoA.

You realize, this aggression, is considered a positive by many players.



JastaV -> RE: AI improvements? Siege improvements? (3/16/2009 1:37:44 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Stwa

To get a campaign game you would have to get CCWAR which is here at Matrix. It has improved from the CC2 days. It has 64 campaign maps and a complete strategic layer.

CCMT does NOT have a strategic game and only allows single battles, one at a time, but that's my preference now days.


Guess I should go after your suggestion........

Two questions!
1. Cannot locate CCWAR, (Close Combat War) here at Matrix: have you a link to the page?
2. Very important: are CCWAR and other CC series titles supporting the 1680x1050 resolution.

Thank in advance....



Stwa -> RE: AI improvements? Siege improvements? (3/16/2009 1:52:14 PM)

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tt.asp?forumid=621

Its called Close Combat Wacht am Rhein. Its about two games above this one in the forum menu.

I think your resolution will be supported during game play. In other words the game does support wide screen. But please be advised the initial menus that are used prior to game play are 800 x 600 and may appear very small on that monitor, and will have black letterboxes on either side and above and below the menu. I can live with that because my resoltion is 1360 x 768.

Be sure to ask plenty of questions or get someone with a similar monitor to send you a screen shot. Talk to Andrew over there, he is the moderator and is very knowledgeable.



JastaV -> RE: AI improvements? Siege improvements? (3/16/2009 3:09:21 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Stwa

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tt.asp?forumid=621

Its called Close Combat Wacht am Rhein. Its about two games above this one in the forum menu.

I think your resolution will be supported during game play. In other words the game does support wide screen. But please be advised the initial menus that are used prior to game play are 800 x 600 and may appear very small on that monitor, and will have black letterboxes on either side and above and below the menu. I can live with that because my resoltion is 1360 x 768.

Be sure to ask plenty of questions or get someone with a similar monitor to send you a screen shot. Talk to Andrew over there, he is the moderator and is very knowledgeable.


Thanks for clarification Stwa.
Yes, I know that kind of issues: black wide strips all around "low res. menu pages, but than game looks gourgeous when playing it in 1680x1050!.. I experience that issue playing Il2 ser.:my favourite game ever, ......as a modder too!
The manu problem is a minor one: I can live with it if 1680x1050 is supported while playing!
Okay, I'll ask someone for a his res. widescreen picture.



JastaV -> RE: AI improvements? Siege improvements? (3/16/2009 3:19:13 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Stwa

JastaV, Gshock,

You guys need to try some new titles. May I suggest CCMT. Its fun, and it doesn't cost alot. [:)]




In matter of new titles Empite Total War is great, but the disappointing on line game activation at Steam site: cannot understand as a customer why I have to be penalized by a heavy registration routine having bought the original boxed edition![:@]

In particular I enjoy the naval tactical battles: great graphic, a good sim level, (Age of Sails style to quote an example), and a challenging AI.
Not so great AI on ground battles!!!!![:(] But title was just released: waiting for improvements.......
Not yet tried the GC game: so I cannot say as regard!
Anyway I stringly recommend a glance to the demo at least!



berto -> RE: AI improvements? Siege improvements? (3/18/2009 8:49:42 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: JastaV

quote:

ORIGINAL: berto
Hot-seat solitaire. Works for me!


Then, going after your suggestion, many gamers will stop buying PC games...... guess it will not greately help authors/publishers.



A non sequitur?

If my only option were to play against a consistently disappointing AI, I would stop buying PC games.

(The ACW and other games from HPS, for instance. HPS' AI is notoriously poor. If my only option were to play against the AI, I would stop buying HPS games. Instead, I adapt, play in various ways, sometimes against the AI, sometimes hot-seat solitaire. It depends on the scenario, and the situation. Result? I continue to purchase HPS games.)

How in any fashion does my selectively endorsing hot-seat solitaire imply decreased PC game sales?



berto -> RE: AI improvements? Siege improvements? (3/18/2009 9:02:22 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: JastaV

2. The useless of PC game supported by AI, as suggested by berto.

I think it is a bit excessive! Isn't it?[;)]


Please re-read my original post. I had said

quote:


Apparently, for some games, for some scenarios, the answers are: yes, and yes.

When I am disappointed with the AI--not all the time, just some of the time; not just for AGEOD games, but for games from any publisher--my solution is:

Hot-seat Solitaire!


Where do I say that a "PC game supported by AI" (quoting you) is "useless"? Didn't I say that, when and where a game falls short in the AI department (repeating: some of the time, not all of the time), I still find use in it by playing hot-seat solitaire (among other creative, adaptive ways).

Where's the excess? [&:]



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