CV Escort TF's? (Full Version)

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cyberwop36 -> CV Escort TF's? (3/28/2009 5:45:08 AM)

Now that I actually have plenty of CV's and conducting large Amphib. ops, I'm wondering what the CV Escort type tf is?

Is it just a handy tag for AC tf's, like the tanker and cargo tf's are just fancy transport tf's? Or does it change how they react to enemy contact?



Terminus -> RE: CV Escort TF's? (3/28/2009 10:21:08 AM)

It's for escorting heavily damaged carriers out of danger. CVE are put in normal air combat or replenishment TF's.



cyberwop36 -> RE: CV Escort TF's? (3/28/2009 1:02:13 PM)

Thanks Terminus. I'm wondering about the tf type button. Not the ship type. As for CVE's I'll also put them directly in the invasion tf's.

So you use CV Escort tf's just like the regular escort TF in the first collom. OK that makes more sense, thanks.



Ambassador -> RE: CV Escort TF's? (3/28/2009 3:15:00 PM)

Don't put CVEs in the invasion TFs, otherwise they might take hits from CD guns.



Misconduct -> RE: CV Escort TF's? (3/28/2009 5:53:12 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Ambassador

Don't put CVEs in the invasion TFs, otherwise they might take hits from CD guns.

quote:

he tf type button. Not the ship type. As for CVE's I'll also put them directly in the invasion tf's.

So you use CV Escort tf's just like the regular escort TF in the first collom. OK that makes more sense, thanks.



I made that mistake putting Long Island in my invasion TF to help CAP the landing, I guess I join the Idiot Club for having LI hit by 44 CD guns in 1 turn, causing her to sink later. Ah well I learned!



cyberwop36 -> RE: CV Escort TF's? (3/28/2009 10:30:10 PM)

Wow, I've been playing for a couple of years and always had CVE's in invasion TF's and never had that happen. But I do prep my targets for a good while before I send in the troops. lucky I guess.

I've noticed the CV Escort tag for the TF says Transport on it, so I'm going use it as a light air combat tf to cover landings or important transport tf's with CVL's and 27 plane CVE's.

CVE's don't have a CAP penalty in coastal hexes? Do CVL's?

Thanks



castor troy -> RE: CV Escort TF's? (3/29/2009 12:57:22 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: cyberwop36

Wow, I've been playing for a couple of years and always had CVE's in invasion TF's and never had that happen. But I do prep my targets for a good while before I send in the troops. lucky I guess.

I've noticed the CV Escort tag for the TF says Transport on it, so I'm going use it as a light air combat tf to cover landings or important transport tf's with CVL's and 27 plane CVE's.

CVE's don't have a CAP penalty in coastal hexes? Do CVL's?

Thanks



It doesn´t mean they would always be shot at but if you put them into invasion TFs (and there´s no reason for it anyway) you are in danger of being shot at by CD guns and you are in higher danger of hitting a mine with one of your CVEs.



Misconduct -> RE: CV Escort TF's? (3/29/2009 4:26:51 PM)

I read a forum post wrong stating to include CVE's for CAP on the invasion taskforce, which means create a Air CAP TF, to escort your invasion TF, not have the CVE directly WITHIN the invasion TF.





Ambassador -> RE: CV Escort TF's? (3/29/2009 4:34:10 PM)

Yes, that's it.  Invasion forces (and supply-laden AKs) in one (or more) TF, two or three ASW TF, one or two surface combat TF, and an escort TF with the CVEs.  And make sure they all follow the slowest TF.




And don't include MLEs in the invasion TF either.[;)]



Misconduct -> RE: CV Escort TF's? (3/29/2009 5:18:10 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Ambassador
And don't include MLEs in the invasion TF either.[;)]


Gee thats why my ML was sunk trying to lay mines at Kwaj... j\k haven't done that yet...



herwin -> RE: CV Escort TF's? (3/29/2009 6:10:32 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: cyberwop36

Wow, I've been playing for a couple of years and always had CVE's in invasion TF's and never had that happen. But I do prep my targets for a good while before I send in the troops. lucky I guess.

I've noticed the CV Escort tag for the TF says Transport on it, so I'm going use it as a light air combat tf to cover landings or important transport tf's with CVL's and 27 plane CVE's.

CVE's don't have a CAP penalty in coastal hexes? Do CVL's?

Thanks


I've often stuck a CVE in a treasure fleet playing Japan, and it has happily bombed away most of the trip, in addition to dealing with any subs in range.



cyberwop36 -> RE: CV Escort TF's? (3/30/2009 1:10:33 AM)

Thanks guys.

I like Misconduct's idea of having a separate CAP Tf, surface combat and ASW tf's. I also put a few older CA's and CL's and good DD's along with the assorted MSW in the landing force. They seem to hold down CD gun casualties. Maybe the CA's absorb and shrug off the hits. I also like the CA's for the flag ship. Good invasion tf commanders are hard to find.

After I have sea superiority I'll send in sweepers so I don't get hit with mines to bad any way. And bombard bombard bombard.



Misconduct -> RE: CV Escort TF's? (3/30/2009 1:19:04 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: cyberwop36

Thanks guys.

I like Misconduct's idea of having a separate CAP Tf, surface combat and ASW tf's. I also put a few older CA's and CL's and good DD's along with the assorted MSW in the landing force. They seem to hold down CD gun casualties. Maybe the CA's absorb and shrug off the hits. I also like the CA's for the flag ship. Good invasion tf commanders are hard to find.

After I have sea superiority I'll send in sweepers so I don't get hit with mines to bad any way. And bombard bombard bombard.


One thing I learned real quick, my MSW is a totally separated group.
First group to go in is MSW, if no mines are present, then once the island/atoll is hammered from air send in the Bombard TF with 1 ASW TF

Easily put only 2 TF are not on follow, thats MSW and Bombardment.
Bombardment has an ASW and CVE or CVL TF following it. All the transports are linked together like a train with "Do Not Unload" until I am ready for it. If you have any spare CVL's or CVE's link em to the first transport and rest of the transports to first Transport. Far as CV's go I usually have them to follow the Transports until 1 hex away form the island where I turn it off.

So in order < MSW First (no mines detected)
Bombardment TF + Single ASW TF + CVE/CVL TF
All done, then
CVE/CVL TF + All Transports + 2 ASW TF (3-5 DD's each) (everyone follows first Transport which is set to do not unload, do not refuel, and do not retire)

CV TF Sits outside of the island/Hex range with 1 ASW TF and Replenishment TF

Dunno how this works for the veterans, so far I have done pretty great by it.



cyberwop36 -> RE: CV Escort TF's? (3/30/2009 2:02:46 AM)

I do most of the same, but I'll put a DMS in the bombardment group. Hold the big CV's in a adjact ocean hex.

That's why I asked the original question. Is the CV Escort type of tf for providing CAP for transport tf's? Or is it for escorting damaged cv's back to port? Or is just window dressing like the tanker/cargo? Just changes the icon making it easier to keep'em straight. Does it effect how the tf's reacts?



Misconduct -> RE: CV Escort TF's? (3/30/2009 2:23:24 AM)

I would say CVL/CVE's are Transport CAP Taskforces, really if you are sure your TF can't be struck from behind, then you should be alright, now it depends if your CV got hit so bad it can't launch fighters, then you need to escort it with CVE's, if they can't launch CAP they are surely to be targeted. I had this happen on the campaign I am currently in, the CV Wasp was hit by 2 torps and broke away from its TF, I put 3 DD's with WASP as an Air TF, and had Long Island to follow her. Sure enough the AI Launched 2 flights of betties after WASP, none did any damage due to extra CAP she had (She was unable to launch fighters period)

In all it really depends the gravity of the situation, if your CV's are fine then keep them with Transports for extra CAP, nothing like having a few AP's attacked and sunk while trying to wait for the softening up to be done and lose a few thousand men.



cyberwop36 -> RE: CV Escort TF's? (3/30/2009 2:53:49 AM)

Thanks, but your not understanding what I'm saying. In WitP when you decide to form a tf you select the type of tf button. Which type you select not only determines what types of ships you can pick but also determines how a tf reacts to enemy contact. These are layed out in the manual. Butttt, the second row of tf buttons was added later in a patch.

Sssooooo, if you build a tf with the CV Escort button will it retire at the first sign of trouble like a damaged ship escort tf, or will it stick it out if set for "do not retire" like a AC tf.



Misconduct -> RE: CV Escort TF's? (3/30/2009 3:07:33 AM)

Ah sorry wasn't reading what you were asking, I am not sure about CV escort sorry.



cyberwop36 -> RE: CV Escort TF's? (3/30/2009 3:23:23 AM)

That's ok, I don't think that it matters. I don't think they'll revert to retire.

I think that 2nd column is mostly for show. The different icons help keep things organized though.

Thanks for the help on invasion organization. You gave me some good ideas.



Ambassador -> RE: CV Escort TF's? (3/30/2009 9:16:44 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Misconduct

All the transports are linked together like a train with "Do Not Unload" until I am ready for it.

The Do Not Unload feature is not always reliable. It's much safer to change the orders to Escort once the cargo/troops are loaded, and change back to Transport only once you're ready to unload.[;)]



Misconduct -> RE: CV Escort TF's? (3/30/2009 12:59:50 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Ambassador


quote:

ORIGINAL: Misconduct

All the transports are linked together like a train with "Do Not Unload" until I am ready for it.

The Do Not Unload feature is not always reliable. It's much safer to change the orders to Escort once the cargo/troops are loaded, and change back to Transport only once you're ready to unload.[;)]


I noticed that, its one seriously annoying problem. Main thing I have to do is set my home port to a local base, otherwise sometimes they seem to have a life of their own.



cyberwop36 -> RE: CV Escort TF's? (3/31/2009 12:13:11 AM)

How about loading up your troops? It's annoying to have to build each assault unit it's own tf to get them to load properly. I set them to rendezvous a hex or two out from the loading port and combine them.

If you load too many unit on one turn it will screw up and load wrong units. Or I find on the next turn the tf stopped loading troops and started loading supplies.

I hope AE fixes some of it.



Hornblower -> RE: CV Escort TF's? (3/31/2009 2:05:02 AM)

i always incorporated my MS in the invasion TF's.  i should send them in first as a sepearate TF??  hummmmm 



cyberwop36 -> RE: CV Escort TF's? (3/31/2009 3:05:11 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Hornblower

i always incorporated my MS in the invasion TF's. i should send them in first as a sepearate TF?? hummmmm

Probably depends on how far they have to travel. Air and naval superiority? Long range CAP for them.

They don't need to clear all mines in the hex. They 'clear a path' for the other ships.



Misconduct -> RE: CV Escort TF's? (3/31/2009 4:18:49 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Hornblower

i always incorporated my MS in the invasion TF's.  i should send them in first as a sepearate TF??  hummmmm 


My idea for sending the MSW's in first in their own taskforce, is i'm not risking DD's to minesweep, I rather send PG's MSW's or AVD's anything other then DD's to check for mines.
If there are way to many mines then I would send in an ASW group or two to minesweep, but last time I did this at rangoon I think I lost 5 DD's by time I took out half the mines.



Ambassador -> RE: CV Escort TF's? (3/31/2009 7:59:31 AM)

You send a separate MSW TF, but you also include MSW in the other TFs, along with the other escorts (as much as possible).  Just make sure your dedicated MSW TF only has MSW in it.


@cyberwop: to load troops, you need a lot of ships, especially when attacking an atoll.  If you can't load an LCU in one turn, you certainly won't be able to unload it in one turn either.  So, you form a TF, load an LCU, and look at the loading status.  If it's still "loading troops", you create a new TF with additional ships to load the same LCU, and then combine the TFs.  If it's "loading supplies", it means the LCU was completely loaded, and you may go to the next LCU earmarked for the attack.
Once all LCUs are loaded, you combine the transport TFs, make sure you check "Do Not Unload", and fill the transports with supplies if you deem you'll have air cover enough to defend your fleet during the subsequent days - if not, better call back the APs once the assault troops are unloaded.  Be sure to have supply-laden AKs too, but this is another matter.
This way, you combine the TFs before even leaving port, don't mess with a number of separate TFs during the loading time, don't waste fuel & endurance during the loiter time, and don't risk exposing unsufficiently escorted transports to submarine threats.[;)]

The important thing is that all troops are unloaded on the first day, and this means (especially in stock, where transport ships have a bigger capacity) using much more APs than needed.  LSTs are better off course, but if needed APs will do, at the cost of additionnal wasted space in their cargo holds (and more casualties, but until you have enough LSTs, you'll have to rely on APs).



Misconduct -> RE: CV Escort TF's? (3/31/2009 2:01:41 PM)

Ambassador excellent post, I agree with having 2 sets of transports load a unit and merge them, what I really can't figure out is the load cost, for example 1st USMC takes 85k in AK to load, I create a TF with 100k AK, it still won't load the entire unit, more or so 70% get loaded.



gladiatt -> RE: CV Escort TF's? (3/31/2009 2:20:13 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Misconduct

Ambassador excellent post, I agree with having 2 sets of transports load a unit and merge them, what I really can't figure out is the load cost, for example 1st USMC takes 85k in AK to load, I create a TF with 100k AK, it still won't load the entire unit, more or so 70% get loaded.


The old grognard already told us newbees that this info is something wrong: count 50% more loading capacity, or even create a new TF of transport, load the remnants part, add to the first TF, proceed until the whole LCU has been loaded. Then, create a TF of AK loaded with supplies, and add to the first TF.



Q-Ball -> RE: CV Escort TF's? (3/31/2009 2:58:07 PM)

Some invasion hints for my 2 yen:

1. Send in MSWs as "Transport" TF rather than a "Minesweeping" TF. Minesweeping TF will draw CD fire, Transport will not, yet both will sweep mines.

2. Include CL with invasion TF's. They will duel with CD guns (the remaining ones after your bombardment); SCs or other escorts will get sunk in this role. This is a good use for slow or old CLs, like the Katoris if you are IJN, or Adelaide/Omaha/Dutch if you are Allies.

3. Include in invasion TF's a couple Supply-only transports. Without that, the troops will unload first, without supplies. Important for Atolls; supply-only ships will unload supplies right away.

4. Always load invasions TF's on DO NOT UNLOAD setting; don't take it off DO NOT UNLOAD until you are at sea, and about to land. (DON'T ever take if off in a hex with land, unless you intend to land there).

5. Time your landing so that you unload in Night phase, particularly invading Atolls. Do that by ending prior turn 1 hex from landing beach. This will get maximum troops ashore in the first wave.

6. Don't ever try a landing in Northern Zones in Winter. Just don't.

7. Don't ever try a landing without suppressing the CD guns first, unless you know they have none there. Japs get alot of units with CD guns, so Allies should always assume they are there.

Others are right, you learn how to load the hard way: I would load one unit into 1 TF at a time, then combine them all in port before heading out. Have extra transports available to finish loading fragments. An excess of capacity is wise.



cyberwop36 -> RE: CV Escort TF's? (3/31/2009 7:15:48 PM)

quote:

5. Time your landing so that you unload in Night phase, particularly invading Atolls. Do that by ending prior turn 1 hex from landing beach. This will get maximum troops ashore in the first wave.


Great idea, I never thought of that. You get 2 unloading phases before shock combat. Twice as many assault troops.



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