RE: Conquering: More than Just Defeating & Occupying!? (Full Version)

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barbarossa2 -> RE: Conquering: More than Just Defeating & Occupying!? (4/10/2009 10:12:00 PM)

LOL. :)  Cool Anthropoid. :)



barbarossa2 -> RE: Conquering: More than Just Defeating & Occupying!? (4/10/2009 10:20:26 PM)

Anthropoid, maybe what CoG:EE lacks is an ability for a megalomaniac like you to actually annex 10 provences and then pay the political and other costs for it:

1. High liklihood of rebellions in regions with a sense of national identity
2. The complications of a possible protracted add on war when they realize what you are demanding
3. Everyone in Europe not liking you
4. Elevated military spending to keep your new subjects in line
5. Over extension and collapse

Like just about every other megalomaniac in history.

It is kind of like the mobilization limits question we have dealt with in another thread.  In effect, the game doesn't let the player take the risks.  It forces risk levels on the player which the designers feel to be appropriate.

I do think it would be cool to allow players more room to take more, but risk higher anger in Europe, etc.  But I think that is all a pipe dream.



Hard Sarge -> RE: Conquering: More than Just Defeating & Occupying!? (4/10/2009 10:58:39 PM)

16% to 20% waste will cripple you pretty quickly, what will really hurt is the lack of food, once your food is lost, your Pop staves, once they start going hungry, you will start to lose production, and every province you own, will be just trying to grow food, very quickly, you will run out of money, then you start to lose troops and ships, and you won't be able to buy depots, so you will not be able to mass troops

if everybody is mad at you, or your at war with them, you can forget about trying to trade for what you need

one of the worst things that can happen to you, is to win two big wars, at the same time, or back to back



Mus -> RE: Conquering: More than Just Defeating & Occupying!? (4/11/2009 12:33:33 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Anthropoid

How many provinces would you guys say is a max before your Empire is really troubled with waste?


I couldnt say.

I have a path of nappy game I conquered Prussia in Total War and kept all of it except the parts I could turn into the Duchy of Warsaw. I will load it up and check how many provinces I had under my direct control and how many protectorates. I want to say it was about 40/20.

I think its maybe a bit too easy to pick several French provinces at the begining of any given scenario and develop their courts up so that you can hold 35+ provinces not including protectorates without having any waste.

I think the court development costs should maybe scale a little steeper.



Hard Sarge -> RE: Conquering: More than Just Defeating & Occupying!? (4/11/2009 8:44:15 AM)

keep playing, pretty soon, most of the provinces you pick up will be 0 or 1 Court level, in Path of Nappy, you looking at some 106 provinces you need, not counting what you take besides, and if your able to use all of your Textiles for Courts, you are not growing any of the rest of your provinces



barbarossa2 -> RE: Conquering: More than Just Defeating & Occupying!? (4/11/2009 9:48:05 PM)

Anthropoid, I found this interesting description of the treaty of Schönnbrunn (1809), which I thought was very interesting.  In PBEM games with multiple players, surrender treaties can be much more involved than the ones which are cut and pasted in the treaties section.  From Wikipedia (rated by Nature magazine to be more accurate than the Encyclopedia Brittanica)... 

The resulting Treaty of Schönbrunn was the harshest that France had imposed on Austria in recent memory. Metternich and Archduke Charles had the preservation of the Habsburg Empire as their fundamental goal, and to this end the former succeeded in making Napoleon seek more modest goals in return for promises of Franco-Austrian peace and friendship.[4] Nevertheless, while most of the hereditary lands remained part of Habsburg territories, France received Carinthia, Carniola, and the Adriatic ports, while Galicia was given to the Poles and the Salzburg area of the Tyrol went to the Bavarians.[4] Austria lost over three million subjects, about one-fifth of her total population,[5] as a result of these territorial changes. While fighting in the Iberian Peninsula would continue, the War of the Fifth Coalition was the last major conflict on the European continent until the French invasion of Russia in 1812 sparked the rise of the Sixth Coalition.

In multiplayer PBEM games, I can see players negotiating reduced harshness in exchange for friendship and cooperation and more. Sort of like..."France, I know you are beating me. If I agree to surrender, will you agree not to choose to annex my lands?" Etc.



Mus -> RE: Conquering: More than Just Defeating & Occupying!? (4/11/2009 11:36:59 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Hard Sarge

keep playing, pretty soon, most of the provinces you pick up will be 0 or 1 Court level, in Path of Nappy, you looking at some 106 provinces you need, not counting what you take besides, and if your able to use all of your Textiles for Courts, you are not growing any of the rest of your provinces


Yeah, well Im particularly not looking forward to holding most of Spain to fulfill those conditions.



Anthropoid -> RE: Conquering: More than Just Defeating & Occupying!? (4/11/2009 11:57:08 PM)

When did Nature rate Wiki!?! THAT is awesome! [:D] I've been telling my colleagues for years that Wiki is the best first source for information; maybe now people will stop fearing new ways of sharing information.



barbarossa2 -> RE: Conquering: More than Just Defeating & Occupying!? (4/12/2009 12:48:59 AM)

LOL... Anthropoid, I don't know exactly when it was.  Google it.  Britannica wanted to force a retraction and Nature refused.  Actually, I have to say that Nature rated the scientific articles.  So, I don't know how Wiki does on "history".  But if their science is up to snuff, I am guessing their history is too.

But I think this all happened around 18 months ago or so????



dude -> RE: Conquering: More than Just Defeating & Occupying!? (4/12/2009 2:16:50 PM)

Speaking of treaties… I always like the way Empire in Arms had conditional surrenders.  You could limit some of the terms.  But is seems in this game most people (including the AI) seem to be playing for the all out kill… so there’s very little point.  I’ve tried a number of times to ask for limited surrenders in this game but none have ever been taken and I don’t think I’ve ever been offered one (the AI always fights until forced to surrender.) 

I’d love to see more limited surrenders… I like to fight quick wars… then refocus on someone else… in this way I like the conditional surrenders in EiA.  I can fight someone and if winning offer them a chance at a conditional surrender if I think I’ve met my goals then quickly shift my forces against someone else.  If I’m losing then I hope my opponent feels the same way and is willing to accept a conditional before I end up losing everything.

I  never like playing the way the AI does (and it seems a lot of players…)  to the last man and grabbing every province in sight.  I just don’t like playing the Napoleonic period as if I was Hitler, Attila the Hun, or Genghis Khan.  But that’s just me.  I’m not out to conquer all of Europe…. Yet…[:D]

I can win and gain Glory points by fighting quick wars and switching enemies.  This usually keeps them off balance and generally gives me a little time in between wars.  I also don’t find it any fun once you’ve eliminated the armies of an enemy as they almost never have any time to rebuild and it’s just easy pickings from then on out and not just for me… it means my other opponents can pick on that carcass too.  I prefer to defeat them but try to leave them in a position to fend off others just to prevent the others from gaining from my work.

I feel something like a limited surrender that used/offered more often or something like EiA’s conditional surrender would be suitable for this style of play… but it would be worthless in the style the game seems to be aimed at right now.



barbarossa2 -> RE: Conquering: More than Just Defeating & Occupying!? (4/12/2009 2:20:57 PM)

Dude, I miss this about EiA (the boardgame) too.

In PBEM games, this kind of negotiation IS, strictly speaking, possible. 

But against AI, of course, impossible.



dude -> RE: Conquering: More than Just Defeating & Occupying!? (4/12/2009 2:27:19 PM)

Yea... I miss the backroom dealing we use to have in EiA.  That's where the conditional surrenders really shined. 



ptan54 -> RE: Conquering: More than Just Defeating & Occupying!? (4/13/2009 5:17:55 AM)

Sarge, how did you cope with waste? Did you just beat everyone up in a regular war and then did total war on them? I.E. you can afford to ignore waste, since you already beat the game.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hard Sarge

keep playing, pretty soon, most of the provinces you pick up will be 0 or 1 Court level, in Path of Nappy, you looking at some 106 provinces you need, not counting what you take besides, and if your able to use all of your Textiles for Courts, you are not growing any of the rest of your provinces




Hard Sarge -> RE: Conquering: More than Just Defeating & Occupying!? (4/13/2009 12:36:46 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: ptan54

Sarge, how did you cope with waste? Did you just beat everyone up in a regular war and then did total war on them? I.E. you can afford to ignore waste, since you already beat the game.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hard Sarge

keep playing, pretty soon, most of the provinces you pick up will be 0 or 1 Court level, in Path of Nappy, you looking at some 106 provinces you need, not counting what you take besides, and if your able to use all of your Textiles for Courts, you are not growing any of the rest of your provinces




well, that is the idea of timeing, and planning ahead, Total war, is basicly only a goal, if there is something to gain from it, that you can't get in other ways, in Path of Nappy, Spain is going to demand a Total War at some time or other, sooo, for waste, you got to build up your courts, you also want to plan on which Provinces you can take and turn into Protectorates, and which ones you will need to keep as captured, so you can get the most use out of them

(really, you don't want to just capture any and or all provinces, you want to get what you need and want)

the hassle being, your Troops are going to be behind, and the larger you get, the more food you are going to need, so the more production that could be going to something you need, will be going to growing food

the fun part is if you screw up, then you are going to suffer



ubik -> RE: Conquering: More than Just Defeating & Occupying!? (4/13/2009 3:43:15 PM)

Anthorpoid,

I think the designers put those checks and balances to keep the game to derail too much into the realms of fantasy. Don't forget many of the main actors of the time shared blood with each other and there was a concept of balance of power that did not allow too much elbow room for the bigger powers to simply vanish each other.

Basically, it was for a big part a matter of "glory" and asking for some strategic relevant political concessions and not for total war. I don't think it would be possible for France to just annex England. If you compare, France was even unable to annex and conquer the Iberian peninsula, with which it shared a land frontier and where it melted more than 100.000, causing a very significant hemorrhage in its armies in the long term.


So, I like this heavy handed aproach the designers implemented with the exception of teleporting armies...



Anthropoid -> RE: Conquering: More than Just Defeating & Occupying!? (4/13/2009 8:22:38 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: ubik

Anthorpoid,

I think the designers put those checks and balances to keep the game to derail too much into the realms of fantasy. Don't forget many of the main actors of the time shared blood with each other and there was a concept of balance of power that did not allow too much elbow room for the bigger powers to simply vanish each other.

Basically, it was for a big part a matter of "glory" and asking for some strategic relevant political concessions and not for total war. I don't think it would be possible for France to just annex England. If you compare, France was even unable to annex and conquer the Iberian peninsula, with which it shared a land frontier and where it melted more than 100.000, causing a very significant hemorrhage in its armies in the long term.


So, I like this heavy handed aproach the designers implemented with the exception of teleporting armies...


Well, I can definitely see the merit in it, and it is true that you CAN try to conquer all in sight, you just have to do it in a more methodical and pre-meditated way. I'll go along with the way it works, i.e., in order to annex a major power you have to plan to do so from the outset and declare Total War.

The three things I think need adjustment given this is the way the strategic level of conquest among major powers works:

1) AI acts like it can 'beat' me if it conquests a single province. The AI is pretty similar to the AI in Civ, i.e., he tries to "take" provinces, when in fact it is pointless unless he has declared Total War.

2) Fleets are too easy to capture(?) Not sure on this, only know how easy it was for me once, but never heard the devs respond to that thread yet.

3) teleporting units



Hard Sarge -> RE: Conquering: More than Just Defeating & Occupying!? (4/13/2009 9:44:28 PM)

just in case (and just in case, you may notice that is one of my favorite sayings)

we are working on the patch

a number of issues to the players that have been reported have been worked on, are being worked on

I was told I can talk "some" about what is going on, but have been being quiet about it, while we are still testing and makeing sure there are not any major bugs (don't want to say this works, or that works, and then find out it don't later)

but...



Hard Sarge -> RE: Conquering: More than Just Defeating & Occupying!? (4/13/2009 9:45:22 PM)

since this is the biggest issue, at least with in this post, I will show this screenshot of my Victory over Russia

[image]local://upfiles/1438/D6E9812D0E7C48D2A2F5B3310DDCBF40.jpg[/image]



Hard Sarge -> RE: Conquering: More than Just Defeating & Occupying!? (4/13/2009 9:47:52 PM)

plus as a Easter Egg type deal, there is more info on what we are working on in the picture, if you can spot it, and in this one also

this is one of my Army Groups (wanted to try a silly Idea, but to be honest, a Cav Army sucks) (but there is another reason I show this)

[image]local://upfiles/1438/C0D8933C0CF7452D910880EC613B4F5A.jpg[/image]



Hard Sarge -> RE: Conquering: More than Just Defeating & Occupying!? (4/13/2009 9:49:36 PM)

and some new map work

[image]local://upfiles/1438/C9C93AC2B10146E89C6F356454882609.jpg[/image]



Hard Sarge -> RE: Conquering: More than Just Defeating & Occupying!? (4/13/2009 9:52:24 PM)

oops, wrong snap

(shameless Plug :)

Unboarding during sea battle has a message now

Frigates are much more active in hunting down Privateers

Turkey was tossed a bone

there may be some new campaigns coming (not sure if with this patch or down the road)

Ships should repair better, so they shouldn't be trapped in port as often

Ships in HW are much better at picking shot type and firing more often if they have a shot



morganbj -> RE: Conquering: More than Just Defeating & Occupying!? (4/13/2009 11:27:29 PM)

Tsk, tsk, HS.  You should know better....[;)]



Anthropoid -> RE: Conquering: More than Just Defeating & Occupying!? (4/14/2009 12:40:47 AM)

Wow. Multinational armies?

I feel like Dad just let me have a glimpse of one of his forbidden 'magazines' [:D]



ptan54 -> RE: Conquering: More than Just Defeating & Occupying!? (4/14/2009 8:40:27 AM)

Ahh...looks like the devs are working on the teleporting issue....this is why Matrix is such a rare breed.



ptan54 -> RE: Conquering: More than Just Defeating & Occupying!? (4/14/2009 8:42:07 AM)

But I'm sure you must have played a game where you actually annexed everyone in sight, no protectorates? It wouldn't be Sarge otherwise!


quote:

ORIGINAL: Hard Sarge


quote:

ORIGINAL: ptan54

Sarge, how did you cope with waste? Did you just beat everyone up in a regular war and then did total war on them? I.E. you can afford to ignore waste, since you already beat the game.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hard Sarge

keep playing, pretty soon, most of the provinces you pick up will be 0 or 1 Court level, in Path of Nappy, you looking at some 106 provinces you need, not counting what you take besides, and if your able to use all of your Textiles for Courts, you are not growing any of the rest of your provinces




well, that is the idea of timeing, and planning ahead, Total war, is basicly only a goal, if there is something to gain from it, that you can't get in other ways, in Path of Nappy, Spain is going to demand a Total War at some time or other, sooo, for waste, you got to build up your courts, you also want to plan on which Provinces you can take and turn into Protectorates, and which ones you will need to keep as captured, so you can get the most use out of them

(really, you don't want to just capture any and or all provinces, you want to get what you need and want)

the hassle being, your Troops are going to be behind, and the larger you get, the more food you are going to need, so the more production that could be going to something you need, will be going to growing food

the fun part is if you screw up, then you are going to suffer




Hard Sarge -> RE: Conquering: More than Just Defeating & Occupying!? (4/14/2009 12:11:04 PM)

in CoG, I used to capture everything, but in CoGEE, I find it a little better to set up protectorates

Protectorates can be dangerous though

BJ, WHAT :)





Anthropoid -> RE: Conquering: More than Just Defeating & Occupying!? (4/15/2009 3:06:27 AM)

Ha, just noticed the Anti-Air and stuff in that pic! What game is that Sarge? Looks pretty cool.



ptan54 -> RE: Conquering: More than Just Defeating & Occupying!? (4/15/2009 11:19:23 AM)

I find it annoying when someone captures my protectorate and it becomes a part of their territory. That's the main reason I never liked protectorates, it's like you're inviting people to annex the province without a treaty.



Hard Sarge -> RE: Conquering: More than Just Defeating & Occupying!? (4/15/2009 12:19:13 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Anthropoid

Ha, just noticed the Anti-Air and stuff in that pic! What game is that Sarge? Looks pretty cool.


ahhhh, look at the bottom of the post :)




Hard Sarge -> RE: Conquering: More than Just Defeating & Occupying!? (4/15/2009 12:22:05 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: ptan54

I find it annoying when someone captures my protectorate and it becomes a part of their territory. That's the main reason I never liked protectorates, it's like you're inviting people to annex the province without a treaty.



True, which is why I say it is dangerous, but, with it working like Mr Z said it was suppost to work, it is much better now




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