Necessity for WitP with AE? (Full Version)

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wgs_explorer -> Necessity for WitP with AE? (4/16/2009 12:26:04 AM)

I understand that a legitimate installation of WitP is required for AE, but aside from that, will AE make WitP obsolete? In other words, will the only reason for having WitP installed be to run CHS, RHS, and other WitP mods and allow for AE to run?

Thanks,

Bill



Yamato hugger -> RE: Necessity for WitP with AE? (4/16/2009 1:09:21 AM)

Well, I doubt AE will appeal to everyone. Joe and I are going back to work patching WitP after AE goes gold so support for it, which has been on hold the past 2 years, will resume. I wouldnt consider it obsolete.



jwilkerson -> RE: Necessity for WitP with AE? (4/16/2009 1:11:12 AM)

AE is intended as a "grognard's version" of WITP. Made by modders and modder programmers. Probably best played by experienced players of WITP, not necessarily best for an "entry level" computer wargame. So we think there is room for playing both WITP and AE and the two may complement each other.

AE has a more intense and immersive feel, but will may take longer to play a turn. So far, I've played about 1000 PBEM or versus the AI turns, and I'm getting faster at playing the turns. It feels a bit like when I first starting playing WITP and wondered if I could ever really play it. But, like WITP I have gotten past that and can now play AE turns pretty quickly. But I think turns where you have to build a large invasion force or plan a major offensive may take longer than WITP. There are more bases and more units.

Recently I played a PBEM game of AE through Aug 1942 and side-by-side with that I played a game of stock as the Allies against the AI. I tried to do approximately the same things in both games. And I was amazed at how "easy" it was to play the Allies in WITP. Mostly because of the "unlimited" supply and "unlimited" shipping that comes in very early on the West Coast of USA. And also because of the lack of limits to loading and unloading ships and because of the extremely rapid build up of bases - like Noumea is already a level-6 in Stock. In AE it will take a lot of time and effort to get Noumea to level-6. So you appreciate your supply, your ships and your ports a lot more in AE.

So, I think I can see myself playing both. If I want a "fast/easy" game, I might play WITP (sounds funny saying that if I recall how overwhelmed I felt when I first loaded up WITP [:D]). If I want a more engrossing challenge then I would play AE.




pad152 -> RE: Necessity for WitP with AE? (4/16/2009 1:58:25 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: jwilkerson

AE is intended as a "grognard's version" of WITP. If I want a "fast/easy" game, I might play WITP (sounds funny saying that if I recall how overwhelmed I felt when I first loaded up WITP [:D]). If I want a more engrossing challenge then I would play AE.




Calling WITP fast/easy isn't funny, it's scary! Most of us thought WITP was the supper grognard's version of Uncommon Valor. It's still surprises me people still play PacWar (free Matrix version) because WITP is just a bit too much.



wgs_explorer -> RE: Necessity for WitP with AE? (4/16/2009 2:14:10 AM)

Thanks alot for the replies. They helped quite a bit.

Bill



jwilkerson -> RE: Necessity for WitP with AE? (4/16/2009 4:05:08 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: pad152


quote:

ORIGINAL: jwilkerson

AE is intended as a "grognard's version" of WITP. If I want a "fast/easy" game, I might play WITP (sounds funny saying that if I recall how overwhelmed I felt when I first loaded up WITP [:D]). If I want a more engrossing challenge then I would play AE.




Calling WITP fast/easy isn't funny, it's scary! Most of us thought WITP was the supper grognard's version of Uncommon Valor. It's still surprises me people still play PacWar (free Matrix version) because WITP is just a bit too much.


Yeah, I know, I was among those "most of us" characters, I'm just saying AE peels back the next layer of the Onion .. or maybe we pass through the next "looking glass" into the next universe beyond - but the experience is the same ... [:D] on and on forever !!!



khyberbill -> RE: Necessity for WitP with AE? (4/16/2009 12:03:51 PM)

quote:


Calling WITP fast/easy isn't funny, it's scary! Most of us thought WITP was the supper grognard's version of Uncommon Valor. It's still surprises me people still play PacWar (free Matrix version) because WITP is just a bit too much.

I just erased PacWar off of an old computer. I paid for mine though and still have the manual. At the time I bought the game I thought it was one of the better manuals around. If I recall, when you loaded the game you had to find a word on a certain page to continue the game.



ool -> RE: Necessity for WitP with AE? (4/16/2009 1:06:17 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Yamato hugger

Well, I doubt AE will appeal to everyone. Joe and I are going back to work patching WitP after AE goes gold so support for it, which has been on hold the past 2 years, will resume. I wouldnt consider it obsolete.


Are you going to fix the retarded AI in WITP?



Terminus -> RE: Necessity for WitP with AE? (4/16/2009 1:16:34 PM)

The stock AI is beyond "fixing". We had to build a new one from scratch for AE, remember?



AirGriff -> RE: Necessity for WitP with AE? (4/16/2009 1:45:31 PM)

Well, it sounds like the limitations on supplies and building bases will go very far in making an AI game more realistic.  I'm sure the AI tactics will remain clunky, but if the human player has more limitations then he won't be able to take advantage of his computer opponent. 



Tophat1815 -> RE: Necessity for WitP with AE? (4/16/2009 9:34:25 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Terminus

The stock AI is beyond "fixing". We had to build a new one from scratch for AE, remember?


Indeed,its the big reason that the game took an extra what 9 months to get done? What am i saying we still don't have it out yet![8|]



Cmdrcain -> RE: Necessity for WitP with AE? (4/17/2009 2:44:01 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: jwilkerson

AE is intended as a "grognard's version" of WITP. Made by modders and modder programmers. Probably best played by experienced players of WITP, not necessarily best for an "entry level" computer wargame. So we think there is room for playing both WITP and AE and the two may complement each other.

AE has a more intense and immersive feel, but will may take longer to play a turn. So far, I've played about 1000 PBEM or versus the AI turns, and I'm getting faster at playing the turns. It feels a bit like when I first starting playing WITP and wondered if I could ever really play it. But, like WITP I have gotten past that and can now play AE turns pretty quickly. But I think turns where you have to build a large invasion force or plan a major offensive may take longer than WITP. There are more bases and more units.

Recently I played a PBEM game of AE through Aug 1942 and side-by-side with that I played a game of stock as the Allies against the AI. I tried to do approximately the same things in both games. And I was amazed at how "easy" it was to play the Allies in WITP. Mostly because of the "unlimited" supply and "unlimited" shipping that comes in very early on the West Coast of USA. And also because of the lack of limits to loading and unloading ships and because of the extremely rapid build up of bases - like Noumea is already a level-6 in Stock. In AE it will take a lot of time and effort to get Noumea to level-6. So you appreciate your supply, your ships and your ports a lot more in AE.

So, I think I can see myself playing both. If I want a "fast/easy" game, I might play WITP (sounds funny saying that if I recall how overwhelmed I felt when I first loaded up WITP [:D]). If I want a more engrossing challenge then I would play AE.



DRRRROOOLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL



Oh Gods will it ever get released...




Yamato hugger -> RE: Necessity for WitP with AE? (4/17/2009 12:31:15 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ool


quote:

ORIGINAL: Yamato hugger

Well, I doubt AE will appeal to everyone. Joe and I are going back to work patching WitP after AE goes gold so support for it, which has been on hold the past 2 years, will resume. I wouldnt consider it obsolete.


Are you going to fix the retarded AI in WITP?


If you are asking me specifically I will give you my stock answer:

I dont play the AI. I see no reason for a game to have an AI for anything other than a learning tool. In my humble opinion working on an AI is a total waste of time. (TM)

If you are asking as a general question to the AE team, that is an entirely different matter as they seem to think it has great importance and have put a lot of time into it. In fact a lot of really nice things (IMHO) were left out of the game because the AI couldnt handle it.



Tophat1815 -> RE: Necessity for WitP with AE? (4/17/2009 12:43:52 PM)


So what was left out?



Yamato hugger -> RE: Necessity for WitP with AE? (4/17/2009 1:14:19 PM)

Doesnt matter. Its not there. You dont miss what you never had [:D]



Andy Mac -> RE: Necessity for WitP with AE? (4/17/2009 1:30:00 PM)

Its a balance of terror the AI is importnat because most people (perhaps not the most vocal [:D][:D]) play v the AI so it is importnat to do what we can.

Also with a game this size some testing can only be done if the AI works to get a game to 45 as its just to big otherwise.

What you have is a bunch of tinkerers working on the code and the game (and I include myself in the list)  - in many ways the discipline of the AI saying NO MORE is probably a good thing. we could still be adding stuff today if it wasnt for that discipline.






ool -> RE: Necessity for WitP with AE? (4/17/2009 1:35:34 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Yamato hugger

quote:

ORIGINAL: ool


quote:

ORIGINAL: Yamato hugger

Well, I doubt AE will appeal to everyone. Joe and I are going back to work patching WitP after AE goes gold so support for it, which has been on hold the past 2 years, will resume. I wouldnt consider it obsolete.


Are you going to fix the retarded AI in WITP?


If you are asking me specifically I will give you my stock answer:

I dont play the AI. I see no reason for a game to have an AI for anything other than a learning tool. In my humble opinion working on an AI is a total waste of time. (TM)

If you are asking as a general question to the AE team, that is an entirely different matter as they seem to think it has great importance and have put a lot of time into it. In fact a lot of really nice things (IMHO) were left out of the game because the AI couldnt handle it.



Well one point for you to consider as to why people want a competent Ai is that not everyone wants a PBEM game only. I like PBEM games when they are consistently played. However life has a bad habit of getting in the way. There is no flow to the game. Whereas with a competent AI you can play for hours turn after turn and get a nice flow to the game. You aren't left constantly checking your email,"Is it here yet?" That part of PBEM is really annoying to me. I would rather have a competent AI,than a on and off PBEM game.



Andy Mac -> RE: Necessity for WitP with AE? (4/17/2009 1:47:07 PM)

The Ai is interesting it copes well at something not so well at others.

Determining what its good at and where it leaves gaps is what you folks are going to have to learn same as any other opponent.

As I did a lot of the AI scripting then its likely some of my traits will come into it because I didnt script the AI to follow history 100% - it follows a broadly historic pattern but especially in the enhanced Japan scenario it has a few what I hope will be nasty suprises for folks.

At present I am still working on the core AI script for both scen 1 and 2 - when I have that ready and its not far away then I have a few nasty tricks in mind for 'alternate' AI scripts

Its quite hard for me to judge as I know the AI's tricks and the landmines for those that try to abuse the AI.

Brady has been doing a lot of the testing on the Japanese AI's opening and he still comes up with ways to nobble the AI but its getting harder even for him (he has run about 50 times through the first couple of months v the Ai so he knows all my tricks by now) Its probably taken him that long to learn where the AI is vulnerable and each time he finds one I try to close it down.

Brady any comments on the AI you could share you have played it more than most ?



ool -> RE: Necessity for WitP with AE? (4/17/2009 2:57:50 PM)

Nastier the AI the better! Bring it on and I thank you for it.



Yamato hugger -> RE: Necessity for WitP with AE? (4/17/2009 3:09:47 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: ool

You aren't left constantly checking your email,"Is it here yet?" That part of PBEM is really annoying to me. I would rather have a competent AI,than a on and off PBEM game.


Well, thats why I have anywhere from 3 to 5 games running at the same time [;)]

Never said my opinion was the only opinion that was correct or that no one should want to play against an AI. I said it wasnt my cup of tea. The AI guys have put a lot of work into it. The main problem that I (personally) have with an AI is once you have seen it, what it does, and when the next time around you know whats coming. I had lunch with a friend yesterday that plays a lot of games vs the AI. The challenge for him is to see how fast he can win. And for some people thats fine. Thats just not the way that I do things. I trust Tom with my life (literally - he has my unrestricted power of attorney and he went for a week long cruise in the Caribbean with my wife once) so clearly I hold no contempt for people that have this opinion. Its just not my style is all.



Andy Mac -> RE: Necessity for WitP with AE? (4/17/2009 3:16:50 PM)

It depends I am biased I probably will never play the AI for real as I am a PBEM junkie but its became an issue of pride to get the Ai as good as we can.

To re iterate all I am promising is no worse than stock no matter what my own view is !!!



ool -> RE: Necessity for WitP with AE? (4/17/2009 3:55:00 PM)

Taking YH's reply into consideration about the predictability of AI after a few games, is it at all practical to have AI mods that would have different twists on how it plays? I don't know diddley about programming, so i'm sure I will get trashed by terminus for this, but I would, in all my lack of knowledge,like to know is something like that feasible?



Andy Mac -> RE: Necessity for WitP with AE? (4/17/2009 4:18:14 PM)

No its perfectly feasible I already have alternative scripts I use for testing when I want to check the AI's reaction to invasions as the defender

New Cal/Fiji
North Australia
West Australia
Ceylon
Southern India and Ceylon
Feint at India and Ceylon and actually go for Australia
Line Islands

and for the allies
41 attack on Marshalls (Brady tests this one better)
41 Attack on Aleutians (Brady tests this one better)
42 Attack on Centpac
Early British Attack
Andaman Islands Attack

So scripting the Ai to attack all or any of these objectives if perfectly possible the issue is its not optimal for the AI to do so and I have no way of setting it up as x% chance of y happening some of these scripts do exist in the core AI module but the conditions for them to occur depend on certain things happening which are unlikely as these strategies often squander resources the AI will need later.

Once you are familiar with the AI scripting engine it takes about 30 minutes to do a new combined arms scripts - refining it if you need to run an AI v AI test depends on how long you need to run it and how many times

Its about 4 minutes per turn in AI v AI mode so 1 hour per month - If I do a script to kick in in July 42 thats 8 months so 8 hours to run the AI v AI test - add an hour to analyse - an hour to amend any issues in the script and rerun say you need to re run 3 times on average

So 24 - 36 hours allowing some sleep time thats my average for a 1942 script

A 1944 Script takes about 48 hours per iteration so 6 or 7 days obviously I try to do more than 1 44 script per iteration

p.s. there are about 800 scripts in the core Scen 1 module

My goal is to have 10 - 12 AI scriptsa all with slightly different strategies so players can pick one at random b ut thats probably a way off yet and it would be a manual selection



Andy Mac -> RE: Necessity for WitP with AE? (4/17/2009 4:20:56 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Andy Mac
My goal is to have 10 - 12 AI scriptsa all with slightly different strategies so players can pick one at random but thats probably a way off yet and it would be a manual selection


p.s. the is NOT an AE objective but a personal one of mine we will need to see how the game and AI is recieved - so its on my personal list but is not an AE objective.

When AE is launched you will get one AE AI script per scenario



ool -> RE: Necessity for WitP with AE? (4/17/2009 4:57:17 PM)

I thank you kindly for illuminating this subject so that a peon like myself can have a clear understanding of what is and isn't possible.
Cheers!



DD696 -> RE: Necessity for WitP with AE? (4/17/2009 5:06:08 PM)

It is very pleasing to myself, and to many, many others as well, that a decent effort has been given to provide this game with a better AI. I am sure there are those who know that goal has been one for which I have campaigned for since the announcement of AE back on 7 December 2007. It is good to know that there are at least two on the AI team, Andy Mac and Brady, who have taken on the issue of improving the AI - and I do mean improving, as I am certain that it will be significantly better than the original even tho they are hedging their bets on this. However, if I am right that it will be a significant improvement, then to this AI team I will be most glad to send you more than simply my thanks. I will contact you after I have the game and have had a chance to check it out.

Andy Mac and Brady, thank you.



Yank -> RE: Necessity for WitP with AE? (4/17/2009 5:41:24 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Andy Mac


At present I am still working on the core AI script for both scen 1 and 2 - when I have that ready and its not far away then I have a few nasty tricks in mind for 'alternate' AI scripts


Sounds like critical path stuff for the release milestone. Get busy mister! [;)]

Sorry, my inner project manager is showing through...



Yank -> RE: Necessity for WitP with AE? (4/17/2009 5:44:22 PM)

I thought I was at work for a moment...oh yeah, I am at work



ool -> RE: Necessity for WitP with AE? (4/17/2009 5:53:11 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Andy Mac


quote:

ORIGINAL: Andy Mac
My goal is to have 10 - 12 AI scriptsa all with slightly different strategies so players can pick one at random but thats probably a way off yet and it would be a manual selection


p.s. the is NOT an AE objective but a personal one of mine we will need to see how the game and AI is recieved - so its on my personal list but is not an AE objective.

When AE is launched you will get one AE AI script per scenario


So how about this scenario?

You put out AE with the new AI. Obviously nothing is perfect and the bugs are dealt with. YH's complaint is that AI becomes predictable and stale. So why doesn't Matrix compile a pack of AI's with variable emphasis on how to conduct the Pacific campaign. It could be a add on for a reasonable price that would put a AI selection box in the game options section. You would either manually select a AI that would pursue a type of campaign you want to test yourself against OR a random AI choice. That way you would start a game and not know what the AI will try to do. It would seem to me this is a way to keep the AE fresh and challenging thereby avoiding, as YH puts it, predictable game play by the AI. My two cents.



ChickenOfTheSea -> RE: Necessity for WitP with AE? (4/17/2009 6:21:47 PM)

Isn't it still the plan to have a user accessible AI editor? If that is still the case, I'm sure you will see plenty of user-made AI scripts available once we figure out how it works.



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