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Mad Russian -> The Offensive Chit (4/17/2009 3:56:10 AM)

I would like someone to explain to me indepth about the offensive chit. Nothing I've read so far changes any of my old strategies....except the offensive chit. So, naturally I'm very interested in what the requirements and capabilities for that tool are.

Thanks in advance.

Good Hunting.

MR



micheljq -> RE: The Offensive Chit (4/17/2009 1:57:07 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mad Russian

I would like someone to explain to me indepth about the offensive chit. Nothing I've read so far changes any of my old strategies....except the offensive chit. So, naturally I'm very interested in what the requirements and capabilities for that tool are.

Thanks in advance.

Good Hunting.

MR


The offensive chit cost 15 BPs and takes 3 turns to produces in WiFFe. It costs a lot but it's very powerful. It can be used in several ways, it can for example be used to turn all your face-down HQs face-up. In an air action, it can be used to double the strenght of all the ground strikes your airplanes do.

But, it's most popular use is in a land action where a HQ can use it. If he does the HQ can use the offensive chit to double the strenght of many land units, equal to double it's Reorganisation value. Take HQ Zhukov for example, Zhukov have a reorganisation of 5 in WiFFE. So Zhukov can double the strenght of 10 land units which are in his reorganisation area for land attacks or overruns.

Offensive chits can also be used in a combined action to have almost unlimited activities limits, they also have a use in naval actions.



composer99 -> RE: The Offensive Chit (4/17/2009 2:50:55 PM)

I recommend downloading the current rules from ADG's website: www.a-d-g.com.au and checking out o-chits (rule section 16). Or perhaps someone can copy-paste the appropriate rule to this thread.



gridley -> RE: The Offensive Chit (4/17/2009 6:04:21 PM)

Below is the section of the Rule Book for Offensive Chits. Potent yet expensive...what to do, what to do...[;)]

I'd like to pass on all my knowledge and experience with these chits...but I'd rather show you.[:'(]



16. Offensive chits (option 61)
An offensive chit represents the assembly of large quantities of supplies and replacements for a major offensive.
Each offensive chit costs 15 build points and takes 3 turns to build.
You can use an offensive chit in one of several ways. Each active major power can use only 1 offensive chit per impulse. Neutral major powers cannot use an offensive chit. After you use it, return it to the force pool.
HQ benefits
If you use an offensive chit in an air or land action, you can apply some benefits within the “range” of an in supply major power or minor country HQ. A hex is within range if it is no further away in hexes and or hex-dots than the chosen HQ’s re-organisation value (ignoring terrain, neutral countries, enemy units and their ZOCs). Each Asian and Pacific map hex or hex-dot counts as 2 hexes for this purpose and each off-map hex counts as 4 hexes.
An HQ cannot supply benefits while on a TRS.
An HQ can move, fight and/or reorganise units normally during the impulse it supplies benefits.
At the end of your impulse, turn the chosen HQ face-down if it isn’t already.
16.1 Air action
If you play an offensive chit at the start of an air action, specify 1 of your face-up HQs. You gain the following benefits:
Ï all aircraft units controlled by your major power roll an extra die in any ground strike mission they conduct within range of the HQ (AsA Option 3: after AA fire). This is cumulative with surprise (see 15.1) and tank busters (see 11.9, option 33); and
ï all aircraft units controlled by your major power double their bombing factors in any other air mission (except naval-air or naval-air interception) they conduct within range of the HQ (AsA Option 3: after AA fire); and
ï every aircraft unit reorganised by that HQ only costs half the usual reorganisation point cost (see 11.18.4).
16.2 Naval action
If you play an offensive chit at the start of a naval action, specify one of your face up HQs that is in a port hex. Any naval or aircraft units stacked in that hex that initiates a naval combat (see 11.5.2) may demand a re-roll of the search dice (see 11.5.5) by both sides, in any round of combat this impulse.
Re-rolling of naval search dice may be demanded any number of times this impulse provided that the total number demanded does not exceed the HQ's reorganisation value.
Example: Nimitz is in Pearl Harbor stacked with 3 SCS and a P-38G FTR. Jay plays a naval offensive chit on Nimitz at the start of his naval action. The Lighting flies into the 4 box of the Hawaiian Islands and the 3 SCSs into the 4 box of the Marshalls sea area, both of which contain Japanese and US units. During the naval combat step the US picks the Marshall Sea area and they both roll search die. The Japanese roll a 2 to a US roll of 10.
Jay demands a re-roll. This time he rolls a 5 while Kasigi rolls a 3. This commits the entire Japanese navy but only the US carrier fleet in the 4 box is included. Jay could take a risk and use up Nimitz's third and last re-roll on another roll, but decides to save this for later rounds (or even to help the Lightning in the Hawaiian Islands) on the (wise) assumption that the search re-roll might end up worse rather than better.
16.3 Land action
If you play an offensive chit at the start of a land action, specify 1 of your face-up HQs. You gain the following benefits:
ï you can double the combat factors of this major power’s land units within range of the HQ when you calculate the final odds for the overrun or land combat. You can do this for as many units in the impulse as twice the HQ’s reorganisation value. You can double the same unit in more than one overrun or land combat but it counts against the total each time. You can only double each unit once per overrun or land combat; and
ï every land unit reorganised by that HQ only costs half the usual reorganisation point cost (see 11.18.4).
AsA option 3: You can also double field artillery (see 22.4.2) combat factors for ground support or receive an extra die roll during ground strike.
16.4 Combined action
If you play an offensive chit at the start of a combined action, you can perform the maximum number of activities that would be allowed if you had chosen a naval, an air and a land action (e.g. as Germany you could perform any number of air missions, naval moves, naval combats, land moves, land combats and 3 rail moves).
It only costs half the normal reorganisation point cost of a combined action to reorganise each land, naval or aircraft unit (see 11.18.4).
16.5 Reorganise HQs
If you play an offensive chit at the start of a naval, air, land or combined action, you can immediately turn all HQs controlled by your major power face-up instead of gaining the normal benefits for that action type.



composer99 -> RE: The Offensive Chit (4/17/2009 6:57:25 PM)

There is a thread in which O-chits have been discussed: http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=1387247

This might help (or not).



Shannon V. OKeets -> RE: The Offensive Chit (4/17/2009 7:08:23 PM)

From MWIF Players Manual Section 3.4.1.1 Action Choice
===
Offensive Chits
You can have extraordinary versions of the regular action choices by expending an offensive chit.

The benefits of expending an offensive chit depend on which action you take:

∙ Land action - allows you to fight 1-3 land battles at much higher odds than you would normally have had.

∙ Air action - allows you to bomb a whole area of the frontline (4-8 hexes across) with a much higher efficiency than you would have had. You’ll need a strong fighter force to protect your bombers, because air-to-air combats are not affected by air offensive chits.

∙ Combined action - allows you to have unlimited air missions, unlimited land moves, unlimited land attacks, and unlimited naval actions. You can do everything at the same time. This is a very powerful choice when you want to conduct numerous invasions in the same impulse (e.g., when Japan declares war on the US and/or the CW). That’s because you can make naval moves during the naval movement phase, positioning your invasion forces with supporting shore bombardment units, and then make unlimited land attacks (invasions) during the invasion phase.

∙ Naval action - depending on the option you choose, allows for better efficiency at sea. The old version allows you to reorganize a lot of ships to use them again. The newer version improves the success of your search rolls in a few selected sea areas.

Maybe more importantly, expending an offensive chit during a land/naval/air action allows for cheaper (halved) reorganization costs for units reorganized by the HQ designated to receive the offensive chits benefits. In practice, this lets you reorganize a lot of units for use later in the turn.

Offensive chits are expensive to build and therefore are few and far between for most major powers. Germany begins the game with two of them, Japan with one. Germany is likely to build more (1 to 3) during the course of the war, while Japan usually only builds 1 more. The USSR begins the game with 1. The USSR can generally build 2 to 4 offensive chits per year from 1942 to the end. The CW generally manage to build 2 offensive chits per year from 1942 to the end of the war, maybe less in 1942 and maybe more in 1944 and 1945.

The USA can build a lot of offensive chits beginning in 1943 and increasingly more year after year. It is not uncommon to have the USA use 1 offensive chit per impulse for each impulse of the May/Jun and Jul/Aug 1945 turns. Nor is it uncommon for them to build 2 offensive chits per turn in May/Jun and Jul/Aug of 1944, and maybe another spare one or two in Sep/Oct and Nov/Dec 1944. Much of the power of the USA comes from the offensive chits that they are able to build, unlike the other major powers. The USA army is not very strong, nor very numerous. But it is sufficient and has enough armor to hurt the enemy. By exploiting offensive chits, it has the power to crack and destroy very strong Axis positions.

===
And from Section 3.4.4.1 HQs
===
HQs and offensive chits (an optional rule, see RAC section 16)
An offensive chit used during a land, air, or naval impulse provides impulse-specific benefits for an individual HQ. Alternatively, during any impulse, regardless of action type, an offensive chit can be used to reorganize all your disorganized HQs. At the start of each turn, when you have one or more offensive chits at your disposal, you should examine how they might be used during the turn and, if applicable, on which HQs they should be used.

When using offensive chits, your best HQ in a theater should be reserved for land actions, and your second best HQ for air actions. For the CW and US, late in the game, the reverse is often true, as they have a limited front and relatively modest armies on land but massive air forces at their disposal. Japan and the US might expend offensive chits on individual HQs during naval actions, since the nature of campaigning in the Pacific does not lend itself to the use of offensive chits during land or air actions.

When your front is advancing rapidly and you do not need the extra 'oomph' provided by offensive chits used on land actions, you can instead engage in a massive reorganization of your forces, using all your HQs to reorganize other units, and then reorganizing all your HQs in your next impulse with the use of an offensive chit. This is a fearsome capability and allows your offensive to proceed without interruption. If your opponent’s forces have all become disorganized, like yours were prior to this massive reorganization effort, they are immobile targets ripe for the plucking by your newly invigorated troops. This is best done during long summer turns.




micheljq -> RE: The Offensive Chit (4/17/2009 7:17:53 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

∙ Naval action - depending on the option you choose, allows for better efficiency at sea. The old version allows you to reorganize a lot of ships to use them again. The newer version improves the success of your search rolls in a few selected sea areas.



As for offensive chits in a naval action in MWiF, what will be allowed to do? Suppose an american wants to use some in the Pacific theater?



paulderynck -> RE: The Offensive Chit (4/17/2009 11:33:36 PM)

I believe it is coded so you can use the Naval O-chit either the old way or the new way. Nevertheless, in the games I've played I'd estimate usage as:
Combined (nicknamed Super or Super Combined) ~ 40%
Fix HQs ~ 30%
Land ~ 25%
Air ~ 4%
Naval < 1%



gridley -> RE: The Offensive Chit (4/18/2009 12:11:21 AM)

Pretty close...I'd estimate ours as:

Super Combined............30%
Land.............................30%
Fix HQ's.........................25%
Air.................................15%
Naval.............................Never.



brian brian -> RE: The Offensive Chit (4/18/2009 5:35:19 PM)

one of the more powerful yet overlooked options is re-orging all of your HQs, magnifying your impulse selection across an entire front. For Russia in 1944, for example, they can take an air impulse, fly their entire air force, and then re-org 17 of the planes. The next impulse they pick land, use a chit to flip up all of their HQs, and can ground strike any three hexes that still need some attention, probably with a good amount of FTR superiority, and after the battles have all of their HQs to re-org land units. This can be more devastating than a one-time doubling of ten bombers or land units with Zhukov.



bredsjomagnus -> RE: The Offensive Chit (4/18/2009 5:54:53 PM)

Yes, in my group (we are only 2 but anyway :P) we almost only use the O-points to reorg HQs or to land offensives.

The German player need that supply badly and with this option he can still reorg some units and keep moving the front forward.




Taxman66 -> RE: The Offensive Chit (4/18/2009 7:09:16 PM)

As a late war Russian who had some very fortitunite FTR vs. FTR combats earlier in the war (including with the French) and wound up having air superiority over Germans, I found using an Air O chit in my first impulse followed by a land O chit in the second particularly devistating.  The first chit allowed the Sturmaviks to flatten a huge section of the GE line and take out the GE HQs.  Then in the land you could pinch the edges of the damaged line turning many of those flipped Germans into Defense 3 or 1 units for your 3rd impulse.  In my game the GE player rushed HQs further away to Reorg or used other units to back stop the holes I made to save more of his units.  However, it weakened other parts of the line... thus allowing me to swing south and take on/out a weakened Balkens... which extends his lines into more clear terrain and less mountains and rivers.



borner -> RE: The Offensive Chit (4/18/2009 10:40:35 PM)

this also works well from what I have seen others do as Germany on the Russian front. Never have done it, but have experienced it on the opposite end a couple times.

For the US, the super-combined is a great use come 1944 when you start having far more units to move than you even can deram of without taking seperate land/naval/air impulses.



Ullern -> RE: The Offensive Chit (4/19/2009 12:40:02 AM)

Pretty close fix to my group too:

I would guess:

Fix HQs: ...........35% (from most to least: Germany, USSR, USA, rare cases Japan)
Super combined: .30% (USA and Japan, in rare cases Germany)
Land: ................30% (USA, Germany, USSR, and in rare cases CW)
Air: ...................5% (USA, CW, Germany)
Naval: ..............0% (In a WIF campaign played a year ago I actually tried one with Japan, which may have been the first one ever in our group, and the conclusion was that this will not be repeated for the next decade.)






Mad Russian -> RE: The Offensive Chit (4/19/2009 1:39:21 AM)

Can a single nation use more than one offensive chit in the same impulse?

Good Hunting.

MR





Shannon V. OKeets -> RE: The Offensive Chit (4/19/2009 2:34:16 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Mad Russian

Can a single nation use more than one offensive chit in the same impulse?

Good Hunting.

MR




No. But multiple nations on the same side can.



Mad Russian -> RE: The Offensive Chit (4/19/2009 2:58:10 AM)

Does terrain affect the operation of the chit in any way? For example, do mountains reduce the range of the HQ's reorganization range or is it a straight line hex count with no modification?

Good Hunting.

MR



brian brian -> RE: The Offensive Chit (4/19/2009 3:00:19 AM)

Straight hex-count. You can even park von Bock in Antwerp and double the landing on Harwich.



brian brian -> RE: The Offensive Chit (4/19/2009 3:01:35 AM)

Oh, and a German Super-Combined has always been one of the most fun, imo.



Mad Russian -> RE: The Offensive Chit (4/19/2009 3:16:57 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: brian brian

Oh, and a German Super-Combined has always been one of the most fun, imo.


Maybe so, but a US Super-Combined seems to be the most useful that I've seen brought up. The US never has enough operational flexibility to get things done. No wonder Detroit is in such a mess today....[:-]

Good Hunting.

MR



brian brian -> RE: The Offensive Chit (4/19/2009 3:25:28 AM)

The US one isn't just useful, it's basically a necessity to run a global war.

The German chits in general are the most memorable, because they come when the counter-density is low. (Though using one in 1940 in France is more of a fall-back in case of a really bad run of combat and weather dice; normally they shouldn't need one there.) After 1943 the game has so many counters on the board that individual ops don't stand out as much.

I also like a left-field Japanese one, such as taking Chunking or a keystone-hex full of powerful Soviet pieces. Keeps their opponents a little more worried for the rest of the game.



Mad Russian -> RE: The Offensive Chit (4/19/2009 4:03:42 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: brian brian

The US one isn't just useful, it's basically a necessity to run a global war.



I've run many global wars with the US without the offensive chit. It just takes planning and foresight...[8|].....and alot of skill/luck...[;)]

I'm with Patton on this...I'd rather be lucky than good.

Good Hunting.

MR



Ullern -> RE: The Offensive Chit (4/20/2009 1:34:34 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Mad Russian


quote:

ORIGINAL: brian brian

Oh, and a German Super-Combined has always been one of the most fun, imo.


Maybe so, but a US Super-Combined seems to be the most useful that I've seen brought up. The US never has enough operational flexibility to get things done. No wonder Detroit is in such a mess today....[:-]

Good Hunting.

MR


I rated the unflip HQs as the most important in our campaigns. I'll explain it:

This is a practice that has increased steadily in my group since we introduced the 2D10 optional rule. When using the 2d10 both sides will frequently make attacks that is based on modifiers rather than raw odds, and the primary sources for modifiers are HQs, ARMs and successful ground strike missions, all of which counts more than in the traditional 1D10 table.

A viable strategy is to spend all HQs on HQ support and/or unflip aircraft and then spend a chit to unflip the HQs next impulse instead of doing a traditional land offensive chit.

For a simplified example say you spend all HQs to HQ support in first impulse. This gives you an average of +2 per HQ (using the 2D10). If you have at least 4 HQs (common for both Germany and the USSR) this is a total of +8 or more in modifiers, which is equivalent of 4 odds shifts.

Lets calculate the effect of doubling your units instead: If your units and your opponents units had exactly the same combat factor values after terrain effects, and you only attacked double stacked hexes, then doubling 8 corps would give you 4 odds shifts. Doubling 8 units is typical of a land offensive chit. And this happens to be the same as minimum bonus calculated above with only four HQs.

(If using 2D10 the assumption that the defending units have the same combat factor values as the attacking units is perfectly fine, because with 2D10 it's better to attack a hex with top strength but disorganized defenders than to attack a weaker hex with average strength face up defenders. And regardless of optional rules: Which hex would you like ground strike first in the turn? Your opponents top notch units, or some average unit?)

So my simplified math shows that HQ support can be better than doubling units for doing a land offensive. But to unflip HQs has a lot of other advantages in addition, I'll mention some:

  • Additional HQ support / unflip additional aircraft must not be used within X hexes from a single HQ but you can spend it wherever in the world you have HQs.
  • Additional HQ support / unflip additional aircraft must not be used during a single impulse, but you can choose to spend the advantage during two or more impulses.
  • The 2D10 makes it harder to take cities, but HQs has an additional bonus in city attacks that comes on top of any HQ support bonus, which makes the calculations above even more in favor of choosing HQ support/unflip air craft.






Mad Russian -> RE: The Offensive Chit (4/20/2009 6:30:30 AM)

A couple of other questions come to mind.  I see no mention of when the offensive chit is assigned to a HQ unless i missed that. It's late and I could have.....

When do you assign the offensive chit to a HQ?

At anytime during the impulse?

Before movement?

After movement?

Good Hunting.




Orm -> RE: The Offensive Chit (4/20/2009 7:23:07 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Mad Russian

A couple of other questions come to mind.  I see no mention of when the offensive chit is assigned to a HQ unless i missed that. It's late and I could have.....

When do you assign the offensive chit to a HQ?

At anytime during the impulse?

Before movement?

After movement?

Good Hunting.




You play the offensive at the start of the impulse. What kind off offensive it is depends on what type of impulse you picked. Exception is when you reorganise HQ and immedetly turn all your HQ face up. You assign it to the HQ (if needed) when you play it.



Shannon V. OKeets -> RE: The Offensive Chit (4/20/2009 11:11:20 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Orm


quote:

ORIGINAL: Mad Russian

A couple of other questions come to mind.  I see no mention of when the offensive chit is assigned to a HQ unless i missed that. It's late and I could have.....

When do you assign the offensive chit to a HQ?

At anytime during the impulse?

Before movement?

After movement?

Good Hunting.




You play the offensive at the start of the impulse. What kind off offensive it is depends on what type of impulse you picked. Exception is when you reorganise HQ and immedetly turn all your HQ face up. You assign it to the HQ (if needed) when you play it.

MWIF has the player make this decision at teh same time he chooses an action for the impulse.



Mad Russian -> RE: The Offensive Chit (4/20/2009 1:48:29 PM)

So then, the choice you pick for the operations that turn determine the kind of a chit the offensive chit may become.

It then, at that time is assigned to a HQ, or kept for reorganizing all HQ.

Can that HQ be moved, like say Zhukov is in Moscow but I can move him to Belorussia to use in the Destruction of Army Group Center? I'm assuming the location of the HQ initially at the start of the impulse wouldn't make a difference. Only the location at the moment of the supported attacks. Unless the HQ can't move before being assigned the offensive chit.

Does the chit only take affect at the moment of it's use? How would you determine the moment to use it for Zhukov in the above example? At the beginning of the impulse or at the moment of the attack?

Good Hunting.

MR



coregames -> RE: The Offensive Chit (4/20/2009 10:36:15 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Mad Russian

Can that HQ be moved, like say Zhukov is in Moscow but I can move him to Belorussia to use in the Destruction of Army Group Center? I'm assuming the location of the HQ initially at the start of the impulse wouldn't make a difference. Only the location at the moment of the supported attacks. Unless the HQ can't move before being assigned the offensive chit.


(from RaW 7, 16.3): you can double the combat factors of this major power’s land units within range of the HQ when you calculate the final odds for the overrun or land combat. You can do this for as many units in the impulse as twice the HQ’s reorganisation value. You can double the same unit in more than one overrun or land combat but it counts against the total each time. You can only double each unit once per overrun or land combat.



paulderynck -> RE: The Offensive Chit (4/20/2009 11:23:50 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mad Russian

So then, the choice you pick for the operations that turn determine the kind of a chit the offensive chit may become.

It then, at that time is assigned to a HQ, or kept for reorganizing all HQ.


For the Re-org HQ O-chit, it works at the beginning of the impulse before anything else happens. So you don't keep it waiting for all the HQs to get flipped, you plan for it the impulse of your own before. Maybe you have two good attacks that likely will flip your HQs. If they do flip, then you look for all possibilites to flip the others - re-org planes or re-org ships or units that moved by rail. Just try and flip every single HQ you have to some good purpose, since you plan on playing an O-chit on your next impulse to flip them all back.



sajbalk -> RE: The Offensive Chit (4/20/2009 11:24:35 PM)

If you are playing the Ochit on Zhukov, you would say so at the start of the matter. The effects are located where the HQ is located when the effects take place. So, you could play the OC on Zhukov and rail him from Moiscow to Vladivostok to take on the Japanese. If you rail the HQ, you do lose the re-org ability.

For OC played to flip up all HQ, you do that at the start of your turn.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Mad Russian

Can that HQ be moved, like say Zhukov is in Moscow but I can move him to Belorussia to use in the Destruction of Army Group Center? I'm assuming the location of the HQ initially at the start of the impulse wouldn't make a difference. Only the location at the moment of the supported attacks. Unless the HQ can't move before being assigned the offensive chit.

Does the chit only take affect at the moment of it's use? How would you determine the moment to use it for Zhukov in the above example? At the beginning of the impulse or at the moment of the attack?





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