RE: AE, the real game (YH v TS mk IX) (Full Version)

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Yamato hugger -> RE: AE, the real game (YH v TS mk IX) (5/15/2009 10:36:06 AM)

Frankly, this is the first time I have seen 2 subs get in and hit. I think I have seen 1 other time when 2 subs got in, but 1 missed. On the other hand, I have also only seen once where none made it in, so by far the "normal" result is 1 in and 1 hit.



Flying Tiger -> RE: AE, the real game (YH v TS mk IX) (5/15/2009 10:59:43 AM)

To be honest, if all results were too close to 'normal' the game would, a) quickly become boring and predictable, and would basically be a 'one play wonder', and b) end up being one of those horrible games that people 'play' while sitting with their calculator working out who will win each and every battle before it is fought. I love the range of variable results. DONT CHANGE IT.

As for "is it true to history?". No! Not this time. Maybe some of the results in some games will be smack on historic figures of losses, hits, etc. But hopefully not tooo often!




Odin -> RE: AE, the real game (YH v TS mk IX) (5/15/2009 11:48:46 AM)

Ok lets stop here.

The game is obviously ok and now release it![:D]



SuluSea -> RE: AE, the real game (YH v TS mk IX) (5/15/2009 1:14:01 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Don Bowen


The midgets must successfully launch, not get lost, get past the TFs off Pearl (one ASW and one minesweeping), get through the nets, and the minefields, navigate the channel, and survive any engagement with ASW capable ships inside the harbor.

It's random at every stage and every result is possible. Two getting in is quite rare, but it is certainly possible for all five to make it. With randoms, you could possibly see any and (eventually) all possible outcomes. Once again, don't get excited about any one outcome.

[:)] Cool as the other side of the pillow. [8D]



Shark7 -> RE: Tora, Tora, Tora! (5/15/2009 2:41:41 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

Extrapolating anything from one combat report, especially with FOW, is pretty futile. But, I totally understand why everything is scrutinized and why all the questions are asked. You guys only have these results to go on and curiosity and anticipation are very high.

With that said, I always thought that the surprise attacks on December 7th actually were not typical attacks, in that they had several bonuses/penalties applied for the Japanese and Allies that don't apply on other turns (as long as Surprise is on). I don't think that has changed in AE, so I would be particularly cautious about extrapolating from a Dec. 7th surprise attack to make any assumptions about the game.

I can say for sure though that the last replay of the PH attack that I did this morning 2 BBs were lost and more Japanese planes were shot down. My sense is that the median is about 4 BBs lost, but I've seen just about every possible result. I have no idea what the average flak losses at PH are in AE, haven't really tried to keep track of that, though I know others on the team have spent a lot of time over development fine tuning many parts of the design for historical results, including flak losses.

I encourage you all to ask questions, but I also encourage you _not_ to jump to conclusions.

Regards,

- Erik


You can understand where most of us would jump at those conclusions, given that in standard WiTP if I sink two ships total with my PH strike I consider it an extraordinary event. My general result seems to be a lot of heavy damage but few sinkings.



Terminus -> RE: Tora, Tora, Tora! (5/15/2009 2:50:52 PM)

Please stop with the jumping, when you have so little to base it on.



Speedysteve -> RE: Tora, Tora, Tora! (5/15/2009 3:13:07 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Shark7
You can understand where most of us would jump at those conclusions, given that in standard WiTP if I sink two ships total with my PH strike I consider it an extraordinary event. My general result seems to be a lot of heavy damage but few sinkings.


It's one result and we've been told so many times ot NOT compare Stock to AE. It's something we haven't played and as I say i'm sure the guys have tested the PH attack 100's of times. 1 result does not make it a trend or the norm.



Roughtor -> RE: Tora, Tora, Tora! (5/15/2009 3:51:38 PM)

They show us a "movie trailer" and people go "oh the movie sucks"...  I for one, want more of the "trailer"... if we could get back to the AAR that would be great, there are so many threads now where the same dead horse (or an unborn one in this case) is getting beaten.  More AAR please, less flak.



Speedysteve -> RE: Tora, Tora, Tora! (5/15/2009 4:00:22 PM)

Agreed. Think it's farcical there's so much flak over 1 result. Move along, move along[:)]



Nikademus -> RE: Tora, Tora, Tora! (5/15/2009 4:32:14 PM)

and the makers of Star Trek thought they had it bad...... [:D]



Speedysteve -> RE: Tora, Tora, Tora! (5/15/2009 4:37:03 PM)

They ain't seen nothing yet [;)]

Wait until they see Yorktown being sunk by a bomb that causes massive explosive damage and eventually leads to it sinking 'somehow'.....they'll be uproar I'm a telling you[;)]



Erik Rutins -> RE: Tora, Tora, Tora! (5/15/2009 4:46:32 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Shark7
You can understand where most of us would jump at those conclusions, given that in standard WiTP if I sink two ships total with my PH strike I consider it an extraordinary event. My general result seems to be a lot of heavy damage but few sinkings.


I totally understand, it's hard sometimes for us to put ourselves in your shoes. We've been living with the game for so long (through development, warts and all) that the perspective of someone who hasn't seen it yet can surprise us as far as what stands out or creates concern.

You can be certain that there will be little things we've missed that you all spot after release (and we'll have to fix), but I'll be very surprised if we've missed anything big (like an ahistorical PH attack would be).



Chad Harrison -> RE: Tora, Tora, Tora! (5/15/2009 4:55:12 PM)

Ah this reminds me of the good old days when Halo 2 came out and everyone was freaked out becase Bungie broke the game by changing gameplay elements from Halo 1 . . . Or when Combat Mission Shock Force came out and everyone was freaked out that they broke the game . . . Or when ASL came out and everyone was all bent out of shape over the useless SL boxes that they now owned . . .

Wait, what forum are we in? [:D]

I have watched a number of sequels come out over the years, and its always the same thing as we are seeing in here. 1/3 of the people are freaking out because they think the game is broken. Another 1/3 of the people are drooling all over their keyboard/gamepad in anticipation for what could possibly be the greatest game of their life. And the last 1/3 is watching the other 2/3 for amusement and entertainment.

AE will be great. Its in good hands. And ofcourse by great, I mean groundbreaking and awesome! Keep the AAR rolling!



Panther Bait -> RE: Tora, Tora, Tora! (5/15/2009 5:56:56 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Speedy

They ain't seen nothing yet [;)]

Wait until they see Yorktown being sunk by a bomb that causes massive explosive damage and eventually leads to it sinking 'somehow'.....they'll be uproar I'm a telling you[;)]


You've got that right. It usually seems like people like the concept of modeling outlier type events (i.e. magic bullets) in war games to match their favorite engagement where such an outlier "turned the tide of the battle". . . . Right up until the point that it happens TO them. Then they are not so big a fan.

So some may want a percent chance per turn that Mutsu blows up because it really happened, but if the same thing happens to the Iowa while it sits in Pearl Harbor, they go ballistic.

Mike




witpqs -> RE: Tora, Tora, Tora! (5/15/2009 6:17:38 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Speedy

Agreed. Think it's farcical there's so much flak over 1 result. Move along, move along[:)]


Oh no, you had to go and bring up flak! [sm=nono.gif]


[:D]



Zakhal -> RE: Tora, Tora, Tora! (5/15/2009 6:27:30 PM)

Less chat more aar, kthxbye.



Dili -> RE: Tora, Tora, Tora! (5/15/2009 6:50:54 PM)

quote:

So some may want a percent chance per turn that Mutsu blows up because it really happened, but if the same thing happens to the Iowa while it sits in Pearl Harbor, they go ballistic.


And Iowa had turret blowup after war. Correction actually it was only one gun blowup.



langleyCV1 -> RE: Tora, Tora, Tora! (5/15/2009 7:09:11 PM)

Looks dam good to me! I will buy this on the day of release make NO mistake on this.
As to the results of day One, well as has been said this is not the stock game its better than that!

Cheers
MJT



kfmiller41 -> RE: Tora, Tora, Tora! (5/15/2009 9:29:46 PM)

I kind of like that 7 BB's can be sunk. In every game I have ever played as Japan I have never had more than 2 sink, and most times I can't even get one. Now they are just BB's[8|] but they do come back to do shore bombardments that hurt alot so seeing them out of the game on occasion makes for a more interesting and variable contest. As to aircraft losses in the end Japan will get overwhelmed anyway so lower losses overall (IMHO) will not matter in the long run between opponents of equal skill. And like langley I will be buying this the day it comes out. [:D]



sadja -> RE: Tora, Tora, Tora! (5/15/2009 10:05:58 PM)

In future updates or Mods can sunk BB's be raised if they are sunk in a shallow harbour like Pearl. I believe IRL there were 5 BB's sunk at PH. Only the Arizona was a total loss. Even the Ok. was righted, but was felt not worth to be rebuilt.



Terminus -> RE: Tora, Tora, Tora! (5/15/2009 10:07:43 PM)

No. We discussed this at considerable length, but it didn't make it for various reasons...



Iridium -> RE: Tora, Tora, Tora! (5/16/2009 12:03:34 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Terminus

No. We discussed this at considerable length, but it didn't make it for various reasons...


Being a pain to code probably being primary to this, I would imagine.



TOMLABEL -> RE: Tora, Tora, Tora! (5/16/2009 2:16:18 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: sadja

Even the Ok. was righted, but was felt not worth to be rebuilt.


And it sank enroute to the West Coast.

TOMLABEL



Yamato hugger -> RE: Tora, Tora, Tora! (5/16/2009 2:36:39 AM)

The next step (after aircraft) is to reposition my ships at sea. When the game first starts, the "routing control" is set to "normal" (as are all the TFs currently at sea). Personally I prefer to use "direct" and plot waypoints. Neither is the right way or the wrong way, its just personal preference. In this example, I am taking follow-up units headed to Malaya and re-routing them to Bangkok, and in so doing, I use way-points to route the TF around places I know from playing him a few dozen times, where he likes to have his subs patrol.

I send them to Bangkok rather than northern Malaya for several reasons.
1) They unload faster and out of harms way. Bangkok is a level 4 port and thus can handle 48,000 tons of shipping docked at any given time, so when the ships arrive I form 2 TFs. The first is docked and unloading. The 2nd is anchored (and subject to sub attack) so I put all my ASW ships in this TF. This one will unload, but much slower. When a ship in the docked TF is unloaded, I split it from the TF and disband it and add more to the docked TF until they are all unloaded. When I have enough disbanded in port to do something else with, I will form a TF and head out to points unknown, again using waypoints to take me where I want to go.


[image]local://upfiles/14252/E89F1F3927494C699EF38161FB7BE057.jpg[/image]



Yamato hugger -> RE: Tora, Tora, Tora! (5/16/2009 2:47:11 AM)

The 2nd reason is the biggest obstacle to your advance in Malaya isnt the British army, its the terrain itself. I move south along both rail lines with the 56th regiment of the 18th div on the east flank and the 41st regiment of the 5th division and the 91st naval gd on the west. Everything else sits on trains (usually at the closest base to where the spearheads are at the time.

I do this for several reasons:
1) If I need to move them elsewhere to respond to a threat, they are already on trains and can just head on out.
2) Units in combat mode eat double supply, so these units wont.
3) They can perform their av support functions in any mode (engineering functions require a unit to be in combat mode however).
And 4) they dont become fatigued walking through the jungle, so when I get down south my units should be combat ready while his should be hurting from the long retreat south. I air attack all his units every day on the push south to keep him from railing out.

[image]local://upfiles/14252/4E2C655E11A44C2FA523676DF1AD6596.jpg[/image]

If you are going to land at Mersing or Kuantan, make sure you unload EVERYTHING you are going to unload (including supplies) BEFORE you attack. If you dont, the size 1 port will leave you very VERY exposed while you try to off-load the rest. I dont bother to land here as he mines the crap out of it (I did it once and didnt find it to help).

Mersing appears to be in an excellent position, but the unload rates at a size 1 port for followup troops are so dismal you are much better off walking south.

Edit: I wait a day on my attack at Kota Bharu to make sure the TF is completely unloaded. If I dont, it will take 3 or 4 more days to finish it.



kfmiller41 -> RE: Tora, Tora, Tora! (5/16/2009 2:56:37 AM)

[:D]Quick question, didn't testers warn us that getting bombed while on trains is a very bad[:-] thing? I would assume that if your in range of enemy aircraft this is a risky thing to do no.[:D]



Yamato hugger -> RE: Tora, Tora, Tora! (5/16/2009 3:03:06 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: miller41

[:D]Quick question, didn't testers warn us that getting bombed while on trains is a very bad[:-] thing? I would assume that if your in range of enemy aircraft this is a risky thing to do no.[:D]


Absolutely. However, you lose 10 to 20% of your strength everytime you get retreated, so as an allied player, I would consider the risk vs reward of entraining and getting the hell out vs getting retreated all the way back to Singapore. Or the huge amounts of fatigue you will build up running in front of the Jap army (even if you dont retreat). As an allied player I would weigh that and at least try to rail some out.



kfmiller41 -> RE: Tora, Tora, Tora! (5/16/2009 3:06:31 AM)

Thanks YH for the quick response, looking forward to more of this AAR as I am a late night person.



Yamato hugger -> RE: Tora, Tora, Tora! (5/16/2009 3:18:52 AM)

Also during this stage, I reset the targets of my land units that are still at sea, as most of them have targets set that you already have, or will have long before the TF gets there.

My 1st turn as the Japs takes probably 2 to 3 times longer than in WitP. I allow 3 days for it (I figure about 24 game hours).

[image]local://upfiles/14252/E5DA28634A3C492580E96CF7326B39A1.jpg[/image]



kfmiller41 -> RE: Tora, Tora, Tora! (5/16/2009 3:35:32 AM)

Yikes[X(] I am going to have to live a long time to finish a game of AE



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