Differences to board game (Full Version)

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arehb -> Differences to board game (5/15/2009 9:18:28 AM)

Hi all, haven't posted here before and don't really know alot about the game.

Is there a thread or resource that lists the differences between the computer game and the board game?



Mardonius -> RE: Differences to board game (5/15/2009 1:59:53 PM)

Hello Arehb:

No one particular thread but there are many references to differences throught these forums. Many are unforeseen until noticed. Also, this game was originally modelled on the Empires in Harm version 3.0 variant of the Empires in Arms game. So there are many differences...some subtle or inconseqential and others stark. I have been playing for about 16 months now and still stumble upon differnces I had not picked up on previously.
Take a look at the Mantis Threads (see how to report a bug). There there is a category called rules deviation. Probably quite a few differences report there, though some may be fixed.

Biggest difference, in my opinion, is no combined movement... folks loan units to each other. Plus that the map is different.

best
Mardonius



Marshall Ellis -> RE: Differences to board game (5/15/2009 2:47:56 PM)

I would say that Mardonius is spot on. Combined movement (IMO) is the biggest difference. Loaning units to other MPs was to be our substitute but it is has created its own set of challenges.



Dancing Bear -> RE: Differences to board game (5/16/2009 12:43:27 AM)

There's a lot less annoying accounting in the Matrix game, which is very good.

It is presently a little hard to see what every one else is doing, because corps seems to disappear from one location and re-appear in another, meaning you have to spend much more time studying the game map, which is not like the board game where you saw what everyone else was doing. Lastly, if you are playing the PBEM game, the pace is real slow. Hopefully, there'l be fixes to these last two points soon.



ndrose -> RE: Differences to board game (5/16/2009 12:53:26 AM)

If you set "see AI moves" you can watch what everyone else is doing.



StCyr -> RE: Differences to board game (5/16/2009 1:27:24 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: arehb

Hi all, haven't posted here before and don't really know alot about the game.

Is there a thread or resource that lists the differences between the computer game and the board game?



This one is just pain.



gazfun -> RE: Differences to board game (5/25/2009 9:21:55 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: arehb

Hi all, haven't posted here before and don't really know alot about the game.

Is there a thread or resource that lists the differences between the computer game and the board game?

As soon as you change the Medium in which something was originally made, that in itself changes any subject matter.

Examples: Lord of the Rings from Book format to 3 part Movie.
Harry Potter books.
You cannot compare Books to movies. Imagine sitting through a blow by blow account of the book in a movie, it just cant be practically done.

Because the manner is which it is presented is differant, they are 2 differant mediums of presenting a story.

The same happened with EIA or whatever, from a board game, to a PC Game the medium of presenting this game will be inherantly differant in a PC Version

I just wish people would get over the fact



NeverMan -> RE: Differences to board game (5/25/2009 4:34:10 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: gazfun


quote:

ORIGINAL: arehb

Hi all, haven't posted here before and don't really know alot about the game.

Is there a thread or resource that lists the differences between the computer game and the board game?

As soon as you change the Medium in which something was originally made, that in itself changes any subject matter.

Examples: Lord of the Rings from Book format to 3 part Movie.
Harry Potter books.
You cannot compare Books to movies. Imagine sitting through a blow by blow account of the book in a movie, it just cant be practically done.

Because the manner is which it is presented is differant, they are 2 differant mediums of presenting a story.

The same happened with EIA or whatever, from a board game, to a PC Game the medium of presenting this game will be inherantly differant in a PC Version

I just wish people would get over the fact


I TOTALLY disagree with this analogy... it's poor at best.

Matrix COULD have made a faithful port of this game, there's no reason it couldn't have, they just CHOSE NOT TO DO IT!!!

IF ANYTHING, you might want to compare FTF to PBEM (not boardgame to PC), that might more accurately fit into your analogy.

To the OP: The PC version is a butchered bastardized version of the original.



pzgndr -> RE: Differences to board game (5/26/2009 12:04:41 AM)

quote:

As soon as you change the Medium in which something was originally made, that in itself changes any subject matter.
I just wish people would get over the fact


I agree. Folks who want to play the board game should play the board game. Folks who want to play the board game via PBEM already have that option with VASSAL or Cyberboard. (Why this isn't good enough, they will not say.) Folks who want a genuine PC game with computer opponents and game options should support Matrix, differences and all. There is no reason to expect all three medium should play exactly the same; they can't.

Except for the combined movement issue (that Mardonius provided as an objective reply), most of the other differences should be resolved eventually. Bugs and rules deviations are being fixed and a classic campaign with original EiA OOB and map will be provided. When complete (whenever), the PC game should be pretty close to the board game, either EiA or EiH depending on which campaign and game options you select, plus it will provide computer opponents which is an expectation for PC games.

quote:

don't really know alot about the game


Is there something specific you want to know?



gazfun -> RE: Differences to board game (5/26/2009 7:47:30 AM)

Well Australian Design Group has approved this game, enough said.
They had the original rights to it



Jimmer -> RE: Differences to board game (5/26/2009 7:25:34 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: gazfun

Well Australian Design Group has approved this game, enough said.
They had the original rights to it

Yup. And, they approved the "original" AH version of the game as well, even though it was substantially different from the REAL "original" (released primarily in Australia for a year or so before the AH version came out).



NeverMan -> RE: Differences to board game (5/27/2009 1:29:39 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: gazfun

Well Australian Design Group has approved this game, enough said.
They had the original rights to it


This argument is flawed, sorry.... if I was in a position to still make money off this old game I'd approve it too!!!

Why do you automatically assume that Australian Design Group is somehow the epitome of integrity?? This is very curious to me.

ADG also "cleared" this game for release.... do you think THAT was the right decision too?????????????? [X(][X(]



gazfun -> RE: Differences to board game (5/27/2009 1:43:15 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: pzgndr

quote:

As soon as you change the Medium in which something was originally made, that in itself changes any subject matter.
I just wish people would get over the fact


I agree. Folks who want to play the board game should play the board game. Folks who want to play the board game via PBEM already have that option with VASSAL or Cyberboard. (Why this isn't good enough, they will not say.) Folks who want a genuine PC game with computer opponents and game options should support Matrix, differences and all. There is no reason to expect all three medium should play exactly the same; they can't.

Except for the combined movement issue (that Mardonius provided as an objective reply), most of the other differences should be resolved eventually. Bugs and rules deviations are being fixed and a classic campaign with original EiA OOB and map will be provided. When complete (whenever), the PC game should be pretty close to the board game, either EiA or EiH depending on which campaign and game options you select, plus it will provide computer opponents which is an expectation for PC games.

quote:

don't really know alot about the game


Is there something specific you want to know?

Good contribution to the discussion mate



pzgndr -> RE: Differences to board game (5/27/2009 1:46:03 AM)

Withdrawn.



Thresh -> RE: Differences to board game (5/27/2009 2:14:56 AM)

quote:

ADG also "cleared" this game for release.... do you think THAT was the right decision too??????????????


No, but then again I didn't get a vote.

Then again, neither did you, but only one of us seems to be upset by that...



Dancing Bear -> RE: Differences to board game (5/27/2009 6:42:36 PM)

Has anyone got the time to go through the old rule book, and actually make a list of the differences? This might be helpful for new players, familar with the board game, who are thinking about playing the Matrix game.

A couple I remember are
1) not having the option to retreat corps or depot garrions into the city when enemy corp approach (maybe with the DB changes to allow naval evasion, this could be added by standing orders)
2) Can't use corps for the harbour defenses
3) having to preset call to allies.
4) Light ships.



Jimmer -> RE: Differences to board game (5/27/2009 7:50:54 PM)

I started, but the list of changes was monstrous. I gave up in chapter 2.

If the two manuals were available in text format, then maybe I could write code to look for differences. That would make it at least reasonable to think about.



pzgndr -> RE: Differences to board game (5/28/2009 1:15:43 AM)

quote:

1) not having the option to retreat corps or depot garrions into the city when enemy corp approach (maybe with the DB changes to allow naval evasion, this could be added by standing orders)
2) Can't use corps for the harbour defenses
3) having to preset call to allies.
4) Light ships.


#3, like the no combined movement, is probably a fundamental compromise necessary for the PC game adaptation. Certain code issues as well as the need to minimize player interactions to minimize file exchanges are going to result in obvious differences. Some things that players can do easily in a ftf board game are impractical or impossible for a computer game, especially for multiplayer pbem. Even the diehard purists are clamoring for things like simultaneous phases to help speed things up. At some point it may be useful to summarize these fundamental differences and the specific effects they have on game play; that list may not be too long?

Other stuff like #1, 2 and 4 are rules deviations or OOB differences, some major and some minor, and these might be resolvable over time with bug fixes, game options and the editor. This list would still be quite long. As specific issues are identified on Mantis and Marshall works them off, the list should narrow. The game has come quite a long way so far, but still has a long way to go. It will be interesting to see just how close the final EiANW game can come to the original EiA board game in the months and years ahead, except for those fundamental compromises we'll have to live with regardless.



NeverMan -> RE: Differences to board game (5/28/2009 2:53:25 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: pzgndr

quote:

This argument is flawed, sorry....


No, your argument is flawed. ADG owns the game rights and they can do whatever the heck they want to do.


Well, I guess they can take their toys and go home.... LOLOL.

Just because ADG says it's Empires in Arms does NOT make it so, that's just absurd, how can you not agree with that??

So, if you want to buy a Toyota Prius and they sell you a Corolla but charge you for a Prius it's ok because Toyota makes the Prius and if they say that Corolla is a Prius then it's a Prius!! LOLOL, nice....




NeverMan -> RE: Differences to board game (5/28/2009 2:54:20 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Dancing Bear

Has anyone got the time to go through the old rule book, and actually make a list of the differences? This might be helpful for new players, familar with the board game, who are thinking about playing the Matrix game.

A couple I remember are
1) not having the option to retreat corps or depot garrions into the city when enemy corp approach (maybe with the DB changes to allow naval evasion, this could be added by standing orders)
2) Can't use corps for the harbour defenses
3) having to preset call to allies.
4) Light ships.



I agree with Jimmer, there are just too many to count, it might be easier to say how this game is NOT like Empires in Arms.



NeverMan -> RE: Differences to board game (5/28/2009 2:56:31 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: pzgndr


#3, like the no combined movement, is probably a fundamental compromise necessary for the PC game adaptation.




THis is wrong. It MIGHT have been a necessary compromise for the PBEM PC version but is absolutely not a necessary compromise for a PC adaptation. Combined movement would work VERY WELL if IP play was implemented.



pzgndr -> RE: Differences to board game (5/28/2009 12:10:05 PM)

Withdrawn.



gazfun -> RE: Differences to board game (5/28/2009 12:35:39 PM)

Hey come on guys relax,[sm=00000436.gif] have a beer on me



Grapeshot Bob -> RE: Differences to board game (5/28/2009 3:38:21 PM)

I haven't played the tabletop version of the game.

I think that the game could be an excellent game with lots of variables and a nice combination of treachery and alliance (particularly PBEM).

Unfortunately the game isn't quite ready for full evaluation in this regard because there are some fairly significant bugs that still need to be ironed out. The AI isn't quite challenging yet, either.

The developers are hard at work on fixes though. Check these forums for progress before you buy the game.

My 2 cents,


GSB



NeverMan -> RE: Differences to board game (5/28/2009 4:05:46 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: pzgndr

quote:

THis is wrong. It MIGHT have been a necessary compromise for the PBEM PC version but is absolutely not a necessary compromise for a PC adaptation. Combined movement would work VERY WELL if IP play was implemented.


Wrong? You are entitled to your opinion about how the game coulda/woulda/shoulda been programmed, but that is all quite irrelevant now. There are nonetheless fundamental compromises in this computer game version that players need to recognize and deal with. Whether you like it or not.

What is the practical effect of loaned corps versus combined movement? The objective is to allow A+B+C to combine movements and combat D+E, or whatever. The loaned corps feature allows players to agree upon loaned corps and leaders during the diplomacy phase and have one player execute the necessary moves and combats. At the end of the turn, the effect is the same. Granted, there are still some loaned unit issues that should be ironed out to make this smoother, and supply issues from allied depots should be reconsidered. But the practical effect of this difference should be negligible. If that's how it is programmed to get it to work and reprogramming the game engine is not possible now, then so be it. Deal with it. Ranting and bashing won't change anything.

quote:

Well, I guess they can take their toys and go home.... LOLOL.


They, ADG? I guess this might make some sense to you, but I suspect you are the only one laughing. At yourself. [8|]


Yes, your point that combined movement was a "necessary compromise for the PC adaptation" was wrong. You can misdirect all day but you said that and it's wrong since this could have been done had in the PC version.

Also, the loaned corps feature is currently riddled with bugs and is severely jacking one of my games up at the moment. I don't think it's fair to put a year into a game just to have the game fall apart at the first sign of normal combat/war.

I still think that Matrix should give refunds to whoever wants it, that's my cause here. I'm sure you will say something like "Matrix isn't going to give refunds so just give up" but I'm not going to so get used to me posting like this and 1) stop reading and responding to my posts or 2) keep wasting your time, it's up to you.



pzgndr -> RE: Differences to board game (5/28/2009 4:19:56 PM)

Withdrawn.



Jimmer -> RE: Differences to board game (5/28/2009 5:01:50 PM)

Pzgndr, just stop taking the bait.



anarchyintheuk -> RE: Differences to board game (5/28/2009 7:45:50 PM)

That's why they made a green button . . . to simplify your life.



NeverMan -> RE: Differences to board game (5/28/2009 9:31:03 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: pzgndr

quote:

I still think that Matrix should give refunds to whoever wants it, that's my cause here. I'm sure you will say something like "Matrix isn't going to give refunds so just give up" but I'm not going to so get used to me posting like this


It is not for me to say. Matrix policy is clear and you are wasting your time. What is also clear is your obnoxious attitude and self-admitted bashing of this game ad nauseum. [:-]

Matrix should ban you since you cannot and will not abide by the rules. A few dollars for a game is not worth this amount of continuous ranting and bashing. It is distracting from civil forum discussions. Matrix, hello?


What "rules"?? Where in the TOS does it say anything about not criticizing Matrix or the developers, PARTICULARLY when they deserve it?




pzgndr -> RE: Differences to board game (5/28/2009 10:46:55 PM)

quote:

Pzgndr, just stop taking the bait.


Roger, Jimmer. Engaging the block button.

Back on topic before we were rudely interrupted, you and others have identified some of the more obvious differences and those that are in fact fundamental compromises and their effects on the game could be discussed in more detail. That would make for a civil forum discussion, and something that could eventually be added to the manual to help new players.



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