RE: Proposal by EU for 2 year guarantee (Full Version)

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Obsolete -> RE: Proposal by EU for 2 year guarantee (5/17/2009 8:20:39 AM)

I guess games like Big Rig's Truckracing would have some problems with profits under these new implementations :P'





Erik Rutins -> RE: Proposal by EU for 2 year guarantee (5/17/2009 12:26:33 PM)

Ok, guilty as charged, I should have been more careful in my reply. What's good for the goose is good for the gander, so allow me to issue a warning to myself. [8D]



wworld7 -> RE: Proposal by EU for 2 year guarantee (5/17/2009 2:00:07 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

Ok, guilty as charged, I should have been more careful in my reply. What's good for the goose is good for the gander, so allow me to issue a warning to myself. [8D]


Is this the same as being put on "Double-Secret Probation"?

If yes, than the I believe Erik needs to organize a Toga Party...



Perturabo -> RE: Proposal by EU for 2 year guarantee (5/17/2009 9:55:12 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Doggie

The Kommisars at ther EU are now going to protect the proletariat from exploitation by the evil capitalists.

So...
In your world, producer is always right and customer is always wrong?

And things like "laws" that forbid returning defective games are okay?
Somehow everyone else has to provide a finished, defect-less product or notify client about defects, but game developers are singled out as ones that have a license for doing poor work and claiming that they are selling a great product, claim that product has objective properties that it doesn't have, even after they were proven that it doesn't have them, etc.



killroyishere -> RE: Proposal by EU for 2 year guarantee (5/17/2009 10:01:54 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Terminus

And then the videogame business would become a rental business, because nobody would ever buy a videogame to keep for longer than 13 days anymore. Nobody.


I disagree because for 15+ years we had the refund right and gaming continued through the 80's and well into the mid 90's before the refund policy changed. Everybody isn't a pirate, but, I think we all want a fair shake in the pc gaming world. It's always been about the greed from the publishers and the developers over these last 10 years (no refunds, calling a sale a license instead of product bought, now intrusive DRM and copy protection and who knows what we don't know about) and I'm rather happy to see something is finally going to be done and I certainly hope it makes it over the pond to America as well.

An honest consumer is still going to be an honest consumer just like we were back in the 80's and up to now. The only people I think who would abuse this system are those that 'think' about how it can be abused. I'll return what doesn't work and that's all.



pasternakski -> RE: Proposal by EU for 2 year guarantee (5/17/2009 10:14:46 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: killroyishere
An honest consumer is still going to be an honest consumer just like we were back in the 80's and up to now. The only people I think who would abuse this system are those that 'think' about how it can be abused. I'll return what doesn't work and that's all.

And we all love you for being so honest, but your faith in the good will of the masses is appalling.



pasternakski -> RE: Proposal by EU for 2 year guarantee (5/17/2009 10:29:29 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Perturabo
And things like "laws" that forbid returning defective games are okay?
Somehow everyone else has to provide a finished, defect-less product or notify client about defects, but game developers are singled out as ones that have a license for doing poor work and claiming that they are selling a great product, claim that product has objective properties that it doesn't have, even after they were proven that it doesn't have them, etc.


All you are going to do is create more work for that species of pond scum known as "lawyers."

This is an arena where the marketplace has to sort itself out. The practice of releasing unfinished, buggy products must sink or swim on its own merits. Nasty protection schemes must either be tolerated or lead to the consumer saying, "Sorry, no sale." The extent to which software is "defective" ought to be determined by the relationship between seller and buyer, not by imposition of external regulatory imperatives..

Nobody is holding a gun to your head and forcing you to buy defective products or those that contain unwanted features. Do what I do. Refuse to buy new computer wargames until you are sure that the product is finished and stable. My rule of thumb is to hold off on new software releases for at least one year. I do my research and pay attention to forum commentary and reviews during that time, and I try to make an informed purchasing decision.

That said, like many, I am thoroughly sick and tired of the crap that frequently finds its way into the computer wargame marketplace. I think that most of the original promise offered by computer-style wargames has been lost, and I have largely stopped buying them.

This may not be the end for the business, but it sure is starting to look like that's the direction it's headed to me.



Doggie -> RE: Proposal by EU for 2 year guarantee (5/17/2009 11:07:27 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Perturabo


So...
In your world, producer is always right and customer is always wrong?


In my world, people that don't know Sham Wow is just a piece of sheepskin have got more money than sense. The producer offers good for sale, nobody is forcing the customer to buy it. Unless the producer is a bunch of fascists in the EU, then they're gonna shove their product down your throat whether you want it or not.

quote:

And things like "laws" that forbid returning defective games are okay?
Somehow everyone else has to provide a finished, defect-less product or notify client about defects, but game developers are singled out as ones that have a license for doing poor work and claiming that they are selling a great product, claim that product has objective properties that it doesn't have, even after they were proven that it doesn't have them, etc.



Things like "laws" that let people buy stuff, play with it for two years and then return it for a full refund means the people that make stuff will quit making it, and then you'll be asking the EU to force people to make stuff for the betterment of mankind, even if they have to go hungry to do it. Stalin tried that and it didn't work out.


I know you don't care if Rutkins has to take a night job at Burger King so he can afford to keep you entertained, but he's fortunate enough to live in the United States, where people are still free to do what they want and get paid for it, at least for now.

So you keep on advocating hope and change and power to the people, and us filthy capitalists will keep feeding you and providing you with consumer good for you to bitch about until you make the mistake of trying to frog march us into the world court. Good luck with that.



Arctic Blast -> RE: Proposal by EU for 2 year guarantee (5/17/2009 11:32:28 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: killroyishere


quote:

ORIGINAL: Terminus

And then the videogame business would become a rental business, because nobody would ever buy a videogame to keep for longer than 13 days anymore. Nobody.


I disagree because for 15+ years we had the refund right and gaming continued through the 80's and well into the mid 90's before the refund policy changed. Everybody isn't a pirate, but, I think we all want a fair shake in the pc gaming world. It's always been about the greed from the publishers and the developers over these last 10 years (no refunds, calling a sale a license instead of product bought, now intrusive DRM and copy protection and who knows what we don't know about) and I'm rather happy to see something is finally going to be done and I certainly hope it makes it over the pond to America as well.

An honest consumer is still going to be an honest consumer just like we were back in the 80's and up to now. The only people I think who would abuse this system are those that 'think' about how it can be abused. I'll return what doesn't work and that's all.


You might...most won't. A policy like that would be so utterly abused as to be completely useless.



killroyishere -> RE: Proposal by EU for 2 year guarantee (5/17/2009 11:45:29 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Arctic Blast


quote:

ORIGINAL: killroyishere


quote:

ORIGINAL: Terminus

And then the videogame business would become a rental business, because nobody would ever buy a videogame to keep for longer than 13 days anymore. Nobody.


I disagree because for 15+ years we had the refund right and gaming continued through the 80's and well into the mid 90's before the refund policy changed. Everybody isn't a pirate, but, I think we all want a fair shake in the pc gaming world. It's always been about the greed from the publishers and the developers over these last 10 years (no refunds, calling a sale a license instead of product bought, now intrusive DRM and copy protection and who knows what we don't know about) and I'm rather happy to see something is finally going to be done and I certainly hope it makes it over the pond to America as well.

An honest consumer is still going to be an honest consumer just like we were back in the 80's and up to now. The only people I think who would abuse this system are those that 'think' about how it can be abused. I'll return what doesn't work and that's all.


You might...most won't. A policy like that would be so utterly abused as to be completely useless.


I'm amazed it almost sounds like all of you would do something like this since you think the masses would? I would think the masses are just as honest as the next guy and only the pirates would continue to be pirates and of course abuse it.

I feel though change has to come like anything else. The internet is getting out of hand with viruses and spyware and intrusive files for games etc. etc. Laws are going to have to be made and will be made to gain control of it I'm sure. Control is coming I'm sure as well over everything.

Just as you can exclaim the masses will abuse it the masses of publishers and developers have been abusing it for 10 years now. Why is it right for them and not the consumer? I've always felt laws were made to make everyone 'accountable' for their actions. I see these laws as making publishers and developers accountable for their actions since they haven't been for 10 years now.



Sarge -> RE: Proposal by EU for 2 year guarantee (5/18/2009 12:31:45 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: killroyishere
The only people I think who would abuse this system are those that 'think' about how it can be abused.

Yogiism.......................[sm=happy0065.gif]
[image]http://img41.imageshack.us/img41/8198/c4syogi03280816340d.jpg[/image]



Erik Rutins -> RE: Proposal by EU for 2 year guarantee (5/18/2009 12:48:53 AM)

Alright, time to lock this up as it is once again heading into politics (partly my fault).

My two (serious) cents on this subject... I agree that customers should expect and receive a working product. I disagree that a customer who gets a working product that only entertains him for two weeks should be able to return it as if it were defective.

A two year guarantee is just ludicrous, given that the vast majority of problems with games (at least well made games) actually come down to the hardware, drivers and installed software on the customer's system. You'd be amazed how many games that have bugs appear after release work perfectly on the developer's system and those of the beta team that tested it. This is not an excuse, but when you look at the fact that in two years a customer will likely have upgrade at least one piece of hardware and installed who knows how many software upgrades, it's just not a reasonable period of time for a guarantee. Even with perfect testing and coding, a developer can't predict what new bug will appear in a driver/hardware combo or in an OS update two years after the release of his game.

Consumer's rights are important, and I realize this original topic was not an actual proposed law but just an "idea". Nevertheless, it seems to me like another case of government looking to get involved without being adequately informed. Guaranteeing PC software is not the same as guaranteeing a refrigerator.

Regards,

- Erik



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