anyone else want to see a WWI game? (Full Version)

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sapperland -> anyone else want to see a WWI game? (8/31/2000 8:36:00 AM)

Am I the only one? WWI does make it into the gaming world, but so far only as a board game. I have never seen a computer game for just this war. Could a market exist??? Just perhaps.... Alas, no one has yet tried it. The war did start of very fluid in the low countries and France. Russia had alot of movement...eastward. Germany had a navy to fight with. Bi-planes and Zeppelins. All aspects of WWII took place, just at different levels.



Ed Cogburn -> (8/31/2000 1:26:00 PM)

quote:

Originally posted by sapperland: Am I the only one? WWI does make it into the gaming world, but so far only as a board game. I have never seen a computer game for just this war. Could a market exist??? Just perhaps.... Alas, no one has yet tried it. The war did start of very fluid in the low countries and France. Russia had alot of movement...eastward. Germany had a navy to fight with. Bi-planes and Zeppelins. All aspects of WWII took place, just at different levels.
I'm with you. I played AH's "Guns of August" and loved it, except for the large number of units on the board, and most of them stacked. I always thought this would be great as a computer version, but I honestly don't see anyone doing this. It was one thing for Avalon Hill to produce a WWI board game, its another for a company like Matrix to make a computer game of WWI. A major investment, but just not enough people would buy it, I fear. BTW, for anyone else reading, sapperland is right, the eastern front was fluid, trench warfare froze the western front only because it was a short front, the eastern front was very different. Unfortunately, people have been taught that (WWI == trench warfare). Sigh.



Owl -> (8/31/2000 9:58:00 PM)

A strategic WWI game would be interesting but I'm not sure I'd be game (sorry for the pun - well, not really) for a tactical level SP type game. I can just about run that now using the gully terrain on the SPWaW map and using all infantry and artillery. It get's really messy quick - bet then so did WWI trench warfare. Now I WOULD like to see a WWI tactical level naval game very much. Ahhh, back when sailors were sailors and those stinking airplanes were near useless contraptions used occasionally for spotting and little else. Those were the days... (can't tell I was navy can you). ------------------ (.) (.) ...V...



Frank Donati -> (9/1/2000 2:28:00 AM)

quote:

Originally posted by sapperland: Am I the only one? WWI does make it into the gaming world, but so far only as a board game. I have never seen a computer game for just this war. Could a market exist??? Just perhaps.... Alas, no one has yet tried it. The war did start of very fluid in the low countries and France. Russia had alot of movement...eastward. Germany had a navy to fight with. Bi-planes and Zeppelins. All aspects of WWII took place, just at different levels.
Sapperland you're not the only one who would like to see a WWI PC game. I tried a few years ago to get a game company interested in making one but alas my efforts did not sway them. Like Ed stated in his post, it would be a major investment for a small company like ours to make such a game for what is more than likely a very small niche in the wargaming community. I strongly doubt we'll ever tackle a project like that but hopefully someday, someone will give it a try. I've always wanted to try fighting Cambrai using the armor as one cohesive force instead of as infantry support like the Allies used them. ------------------ Frank Donati Director of Game Development Matrix Games



KG Erwin -> (9/1/2000 6:45:00 AM)

Frank, thanks for your insights. Yes, it's unfortunate that a WWI game would take a LOT of gamer pushing for it to be considered. However, some enterprising individual could always use the OOB editor to create some of those units and maybe come up with a WWI variant for SPWaW. That could be done, couldn't it? After all, I've seen other successful game engines with editors being adapted for other time periods. Following that line of reasoning, perhaps a Cambrai scenario is not out of the realm of possibility."SPWaW [img]http://www.matrixgames.com/ubb/biggrin.gif[/img]ecisive Battles of the Great War"? ------------------ "Klotzen, nicht Kleckern (roughly translated, 'Boot em, don't spatter em')"--Heinz Guderian [This message has been edited by KG Erwin (edited August 31, 2000).] [This message has been edited by KG Erwin (edited August 31, 2000).]



troopie -> (9/1/2000 7:24:00 AM)

I would love to see a tactical level WW1 game. I have done WW1 battles for SPWW2, but only on the colonial level. I plan to do more Africa battles, and some early European and Pacific battles if I can get the data. troopie ------------------ Pamwe Chete



sapperland -> (9/1/2000 7:26:00 AM)

Every well known war has been done and redone by many game companies. I just think that a WWI game would fair well given that there is NO competition in the market. On the Grand Strategic level you have alot more to play with than trenches. Aside from all the types of land, air and sea combat the game could have technology researched and political aspects to sway countries and even your own population. Ed Cogburn, Guns of August is good, but there are several other WWI board games that are fun to play as well. Check out www.bouldergames.com for good board and card game prices and selection. I found them just a month ago. I think the key is to market the game so would be buyers don't think "oh, just a boring static war game" [This message has been edited by sapperland (edited August 31, 2000).]



KG Erwin -> (9/1/2000 10:27:00 AM)

Sapperland, maybe you're thinking of a cross between Third Reich, Diplomacy, and 1914, set for the PC format. I used to own a copy of Jim Dunnigan's 1914 AH board game--it was a step forward as far as research was concerned, but NOT very playable--the man was (and still is) a few years ahead of his time. IF we can drum up enough support, maybe Matrix will look into it. I'm with you on that one.



bpolarsk -> (9/1/2000 7:34:00 PM)

I have more than 100 books on WW1, most of them are memories. Nowadays people focuses on West front, but more than 15 millions soldiers never saw this front! Not convinced ? then consider fighting in Mesopotamia, Palestine, Dardanelles, Bulgaria, Italy, Romania, Serbia, Russia (including Caucase), Australia (3 fronts). You quickly realize that there was more movment in WW1 than WW2. Add the fact That this war remained indecise until the last months and you have LOTS of open fields. There are much more 'if they had ...' in ww1 than in ww2. I think there are clear space for a ww1 game at strategic (with strong diplomacy). Such a game can become a huge hit and people still have to discover this war. ------------------



David Heath -> (9/2/2000 12:39:00 AM)

Talking as a gamer and not the leader of Matrix Games now..... I still not sold on a game for this era. I will watch the forum and see how it goes. David



KG Erwin -> (9/2/2000 9:51:00 AM)

OK, guys, NOW is the time to speak up. A WWI game will be considered IF the demand is there. How many of you would be willing to fork over cash for a Matrix WWI game? Count me in.



troopie -> (9/2/2000 12:25:00 PM)

Save one for me. I'll even pay for complete WW1 oobs for SPWAW. troopie ------------------ Pamwe Chete



Ed Cogburn -> (9/2/2000 4:13:00 PM)

quote:

Originally posted by David Heath: Talking as a gamer and not the leader of Matrix Games now..... I still not sold on a game for this era. I will watch the forum and see how it goes. David
David you know you'll get more afirmative statements than negative ones in this forum. Sure, a strategic level WWI game? Absolutely. It would allow many what-if's to be tested, Russia-first, or use the true Von Shefflin (sp?) plan, plus other things. If the game gave significant industrial control, particularly in the years prior to the war (the game starts before 1914), other options become interesting, like a stronger attempt by the Germans to deploy a larger naval force, an early adoption of tanks by the Allies, an early development of the Stosstrupen(sp?) (German infantry units using modern tactics). Diplomacy options could change drastically the developments in Italy, the Balkans, Austria-Hungary, and south-east Europe, meaning the game won't play the exact same way twice. Count me in, but the question remains: Who else will buy, and can you afford taking such a risk? How well can Matrix survive a for-profit game tanking on them at this point?



sapperland -> (9/2/2000 10:58:00 PM)

I dont think most people even look at the general discussion area and those that do and comment on the WWI idea would likely be those that are in favor of it. How about put a question out in the news area or something and ask "would you buy a strategic level WWI game?" and have a spot to vote yes or no. That may give a better idea for how well the game would sell. WWW.gamespot.com does simiple voting like this and that would be seen by many more people. The site, as I'm sure you know, does game reviews. As for cost of making the game, could a teaming effort be made with another gaming company to share the risk/gain. Just a thought. Anyways thats my 2 cents.



GulFalco -> (9/3/2000 9:28:00 AM)

Maybe once Wars of Napoleon comes out it could be utilized as the basis for a W.W.I game. ------------------ Men are cheap, but women can never be payed for. Napoleon



Wallymanowar -> (9/3/2000 1:32:00 PM)

I, For one, would be very interested in a series of games based on WWI. A strategic game opens up a huge realm of possibilities - it could even be used to tie into another game about WWII (ie. would another war have occured if Germany had won the first one?). Consider putting the two wars together with all the minor conflicts in between and calling it the Second Thirty Years War (which in reality it closely mirrors). A naval game which uses the Dreadnoughts without (as Owl said) worrying about those pesky aircraft. The ultimate in purely Naval warfare - no air, no radar, and in some cases , no wireless - just big guns and big ships!!! A tactical simulation ala SPWAW - let's see if you can duplicate the infiltration tactics of the Stosstruppen, or pioneer the armour/infantry cooperation of the Allies, or even utilize your Cossacks on the Eastern Front as they were meant to be used. All the possible avenues to explore WRT WWI are sadly ignored because that war was not as glamorous as WWII, but the lessons learned from that war still permeate the thinking of strategists today. ------------------ 'Bitter Mike'



Leibstandarte -> (9/4/2000 8:27:00 AM)

I would like to see a WWI game. As far as I'm concerned if Matrix makes it I will buy it. At this point I know two things. 1. Matrix makes quality, well supported wargames. 2. I will buy all quality well supported wargames. If you make it Matrix I'm sure I won't be the only one to buy it. ------------------ Cavalry Trooper (8th US) and Grandson of a Leibstandarte Tanker.



bpolarsk -> (9/4/2000 6:47:00 PM)

Hello, There have been some attempts in the past to produce a WW1 game, but the specific context this epoch was never understood. The main reason of these repetitive failures was a false appreciation of WW1. These errors come from the influence of Western front, which hide the rest. Memories from the eastern front barely rose any interest in the Western countries. A Successful WW1 war simulation should contain a very strong Diplomacy and strategic level, Since it is especially in this domain where central Empire looses the war. They did a wrong job with Italy (not obtaining its neutrality), Romania and USA. In the economic side, you must note that commitment to total war was quicker in WW1 than in WW2. I.e., In Germany, You must wait until 1943 and Speer, while it is effective as soon as mid-1915 in the same country. So the production side of any game should be restricted to the minimum since they are historically immediately at maximum. In the strategic side, losing 'La Marne' in Sept is a miracle (on the wrong side) when Verdun is a strategic blunder while Russia is at stake. etc ... In the Other side the western countries behave most stupidly. They had materials and lacks manpower and space to manoeuvre, while Russia had manpower and space but lacks material. W. Churchill was right and the allied should have commited an all front assault on Turkey to open a channel towards Russia as soon as 1915 with much more decision than they did. But this is already gaming. Can you expect return on investment on a WW1 production? Sure the market is less extended, but competition for Napoleonic or WW2 subjects is also higher. What would be the selling of a Matrix WIR2 in face of 'Normandy 44', TOAW, 'East Front 2' ? Sure, in order to sell, you must provide a quality game. So any WW1 should much that level of qualities. In case, somebody produces a quality game on WW1, its will have smaller market but less competitions on it. Another factor in favour of making a WW1 game is that an engine that may satisfy a strategic/operational for WW1 can quickly be reused for an all WW2 European front. Pushing the idea furthers, why not inverse and builds a WW2. There are however some differences, in integrating the speed of units, aviation. Diplomacy in WW2 is limited to Turkey and Spain. If matrix goes for a WW1, I will surely vote with my wallet.



waynef -> (9/4/2000 7:44:00 PM)

I think GulFalco has a point! Maybe Wars of Napoleon could be used as a model to build from. I'd like to see some of the diplomacy involved leading up to the Great War! Strategic would be great. Im afraid tactical battles would involve large bombardments with squad after squad of men attacking machine guns. Since armor/air power were not a major players, the game would be large scale infantry attacks on fortified positions. Not my cup of tea, but to each his own. Thats why I think its important to include diplomacy/economy (Europa Universalis ?). Good Luck its a real niche market.



Bonzo -> (9/5/2000 5:15:00 AM)

I too like the idea of a WWI game. But it does not have to be grand strategic, nor human wave assaults. For every grand scale battle in WW1 (and WW2) there were hundreds of small scale probes & patrols to gather intelligence, cut wire, knock out strong points. There are expamples of this in Rommel's "ATTACKS". It was also in WWI where the first experiments in mobile warfare were attempted by people like Canadian Brig. Gen. Raymond Brutinel. I think that the current SPWaW is quite suitable for this. I don't know why anyone would want to refight Verdun, Passchendael or the like on the computer. They were gross failures of leadership at best. But the small unit action - Ah. IIRC, Rommel took a well fortified mountaintop position in Italy, without artillery. Just manouever using the terrain, indirect machine gun fire, then a pincer-type assault on the entrenchments using hand grenades. One would have to play with the terrain features to make trenches work in a reasonable fashion, with a few levels of entrenchment - The shallow scrapes favoured by green troops and commanders of the "school of Elan", normal depth entrenchments and the monsterous works of the Hindenberg Line. If one wanted to, one could do monsterous slaughterfests in SPWaW as it is now. But who wants to do that? Look at the truely great custom scenarios done by Wild Bill, Redleg & others where it isn't "A Whole $#*%-load of ***" coming at you, but rather a well hidden anti-tank gun, a few units appearing on that "safe" flank, that minefield that has no reason to be there that make them challenging & enjoyable. I think the same would be true in a WWI game. Just my thoughts. Bonzo ------------------ Robert (Bonzo) Lindsay Coordinator: 28th (Northwest) Battalion Headquarters http://dreadnaught.home.icq.com



Ed Cogburn -> (9/5/2000 1:53:00 PM)

Hi, Bonzo.
quote:

... there were hundreds of small scale probes & patrols to gather intelligence, cut wire, knock out strong points. There are expamples of this in Rommel's "ATTACKS".
It sounds like you're just asking for tactical WW1 scenarios for SPWaW; this thread has always been about a grand strategic WW1 game.
quote:

I don't know why anyone would want to refight Verdun, Passchendael or the like on the computer. They were gross failures of leadership at best.
Nobody is suggesting we want to fight Verdun again, the tedium of the fighting on the Western front is already a given. Our point is this kind of fighting didn't happen everywhere, so the game, with the addition of strategy, production and diplomacy decisions to be made, won't be that dull. In fact, most games will play differently since we all have the hindsight of knowing the pointlessness of human wave attacks at Verdun and elsewere on the Western front.
quote:

But the small unit action - Ah.
So make scenarios for SPWaW. SPWaW might need some improvements to reflect the massive earthworks of the trenchs and tunnels and underground spaces, and perhaps new data for the late war tanks, but there is little reason to make a specific tactical level game of WW1, when you have a good, existing platform like SPWaW for this.
quote:

IIRC, Rommel took a well fortified mountaintop position in Italy, without artillery. Just manouever using the terrain, indirect machine gun fire, then a pincer-type assault on the entrenchments using hand grenades.
Rommel was part of the "Stosstrupen" divisions which used modern small unit tactics on a large scale. They were the German response to the Western Allies use of concentrated tanks and air planes. However, these hypothetical scenarios for Stosstrupen combat will look even more like WW2 scenarios in SPWaW, just without tanks. Its hard enough to talk Matrix into a strategic level game of WW1, the idea of making a new tactical level game for WW1 won't get very far, especially considering how easy it probably is to adapt SPWaW for this purpose.



Bonzo -> (9/5/2000 9:05:00 PM)

My read of the thread is a discussion of a WWI game, not limited to grand strategic. There is discussion in this thread about a set of OOB files for SPWaW for WWI, so I do not feel my comments are miss places or inappropriate. The goal of my post is to to present more options so that we are more likely to see some form of WWI game developed, not to undercut the desirability of a grand strategic game. As for Rommel, at the time of the attack i mentioned, he was in the Wirtberg (sp?) mountain battalion (IIRC), fighting in the balkans and Italy. Earlier in the war, he was on the western front with another unit, before the stalemate set in and movement became impossible. I would be happy with any good WWI game. ------------------ Robert (Bonzo) Lindsay, Coordinator 28th (North-west) Battalion Headquarters http://dreadnaught.home.icq.com nwbattalion@icqmail.com



Gary Norman -> (9/7/2000 1:36:00 AM)

A campaign game, in the North Sea, using the the Grand and High Seas dreadnoughts, as they were built, starting in 1914 to 1918? ------------------



VictorH -> (9/7/2000 9:45:00 AM)

I would like to see a WWI game developed by Matrix. I played a number of WWI board games by S&T many years ago. There was a quad series that included the battle of Capretto. Also, there were 3 magzine games I recall, one on Tannenberg, the other on the Kaiser Battles(last German Offensive in the West using Strosstruppen tactics), then there was a game on the entire war. Finally there was a agme on the British Tank attack at Cambrai. Count on me for a purchase.



laurent Favre -> (9/8/2000 5:21:00 PM)

WW1 wargame would be nice, either on strategic level or on operational. Even if there are some great differences with WW2, most the game engine could be the same. last I 'm sure a WW1 game would sell much better than a new iteration of the Bulge or another tactical wargame.



Frantic -> (9/11/2000 2:27:00 AM)

I for one would love 2 buy a Grand Strategy game of WW1 - the what-ifs of that war are many! I'm not sure about the operational - the tactics early on was largly napoleonic, so u could get the same gamingexperience from playing Tallonsofts nap.war. series (forgot the name - sorry) PLEASE MAKE A GRAND STRATEGY GAME!!!! that my 2 cents



troopie -> (9/12/2000 7:04:00 AM)

I would like to see one on the scale of SP3. Every big battle is made up of hundreds or thousands of little battles. And for me, the little battles have the interest. And in between the 'going over the top' events there was a constant round of patrols, probes, ambushes and fights. And this is just the West front. In the East, Middle East and African fronts, things were much more mobile. Also, I wager, with better support and generals better than Hamilton, Stopford, and Hunter-Weston the allies could crack the Dardanelles. (Actually it's hard to be worse than these three.) troopie ------------------ Pamwe Chete



HowieB -> (9/14/2000 9:07:00 AM)

A grand strategic WW1 game would be EXTREMELY interesting. I mean what happened to all the grand strategic games? I think the last one out was Clash Of Steel by SSI in 94(?). Nowadays, they are all extinct! What's up with that? I loved the scale and being in charge of the whole business. If anyone wants some hard evidence that a grand strategic game of WW1 can both be good and sell well, have a look at "Paths Of Glory", a boardgame by GMT Games released last year. It is by far the most discussed boardgame at the consimworld forums (http://talk.consimworld.com) right now (ca 6000 posts) and it's out of stock at most (if not all) retailers (a reprint is scheduled for October). This is an excellent and obviously very successful boardgame and all I wish is that something similar existed for my PC! These figures also makes me wonder why WW1 is considered a niche in the wargaming community?? Looking at the number of consimworld forum posts, this game is seeing 12 times more posts than Advanced Third Reich (ca 500 posts)! Even another WW1 game - "Drive On Paris" by The Gamers is having a good amount of discussion with about 500 posts. Also, the company deciding to make a WW1 game now in 2000 won't have much of a competition to worry about either: Computergamers currently have a choice between: *The very old "History Line 1914-1918" by Bluebyte released in 91(?). *A couple of WW1 scenarios in Talonsoft's TOAW:COW. *A WW1 mod for Close Combat. That's the entire list (that I know of)! Maybe the computer wargaming community is a completely different breed than the board- wargamers, but my impression is that we share a lot of ground. I may be wrong though? However, I would be the first one to buy a WW1 game and I'm pretty sure there are hordes of other wargamers (board and/or computer) who wouldn't hesitate to hand over their money if a quality WW1 computergame appeared. ----------------- Mattias Frannfors



bpolarsk -> (9/14/2000 1:54:00 PM)

Very pertinent, indeed, and thanks for the link ! [This message has been edited by bpolarsk (edited September 14, 2000).]



mogami -> (9/14/2000 10:53:00 PM)

I would love a WWI game, and one on the Japan-Russian War 0f 1904 (A really interesting war) And the Punic Wars, the Pelopenniosn (sic) War, The Mexican-American War no kidding there are too many good wars being ignored. A game or two on any of these would find it's way into my PC. ------------------ I'm not retreating, I'm attacking in a differant direction!



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