Optimum fighter altitudes - how do I know whats best AE (Full Version)

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Cavalry Corp -> Optimum fighter altitudes - how do I know whats best AE (6/12/2009 6:54:35 PM)

AE question on optimum altitude for air combat , CAP, sweep etc

Is there anywhere on a screen that tells you your P38 does not do well at a certain altitude etc ?

I do not know how I would find it out and for sure it says nothing in stock now .

Cav



Erik Rutins -> RE: Optimum fighter altitudes - how do I know whats best AE (6/12/2009 6:59:31 PM)

Yes, when you look at the aircraft info, it shows the maneuver ratings for each range band. In addition to that info, you also now get info in the combat report telling you roughly what altitude the enemy planes are coming in at. So you can use those two to make a determination about what altitude may be best for your own missions.



Cavalry Corp -> RE: Optimum fighter altitudes - how do I know whats best AE (6/12/2009 7:32:40 PM)

Erik

It gets better and better - thanks

Michael



HistoryGuy -> RE: Optimum fighter altitudes - how do I know whats best AE (6/14/2009 12:23:50 AM)

The impression that I get from reading the "performance bands" A2A discussion is that a favored P-38 tactic of diving from high altitude to make an attack and then zooming back up to repeat cannot be replicated in AE (at least as effectively). It seems like "performance bands" equates to dogfighting at certain altitudes??



Jorm -> RE: Optimum fighter altitudes - how do I know whats best AE (6/14/2009 12:37:12 AM)

I that right about the p38, didnt most models suffer badly from high speed compressability issues, ie in a high speed dive ? So was this high speed dive pass an actual tactic used by the P38 ?

cheers



Nikademus -> RE: Optimum fighter altitudes - how do I know whats best AE (6/14/2009 2:53:00 AM)

early models did, but only came into play if the plane power dived and reached too fast a speed. Making a fast, but more shallow diving boom and zoom pass on a fighter would not be a problem for the most part. P-38's strength in this was that it's supercharged engines allowed it to retain power and regain and/or retain altitude advantage vs. earlier 1st generation allied planes. Being more at home in the higher alt bands also faciliated the 38 starting a battle with alt advantage.



tigercub -> RE: Optimum fighter altitudes - how do I know whats best AE (6/14/2009 3:53:26 AM)

over 20,000 feet the P38j performance dropped off markedly.



Howard Mitchell -> RE: Optimum fighter altitudes - how do I know whats best AE (6/14/2009 7:45:30 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: tigercub

over 20,000 feet the P38j performance dropped off markedly.


No it didn't. I didn't even reach its maximum speed until 25,000 feet.



Terminus -> RE: Optimum fighter altitudes - how do I know whats best AE (6/14/2009 8:58:08 AM)

Maybe he's thinking about the -G...?



tigercub -> RE: Optimum fighter altitudes - how do I know whats best AE (6/14/2009 10:58:06 AM)

Quoting of the top of my head can lead to poor memory lol yes there best performance was 25,000 But Quote:P38J in NW Europe. over 20,000 the Allison engines suffered sluggish oil that refused to flow properly in the intense cold of high altitude,leading to heavy oil consumption an engine life of only 80 hours and frequent engine failure....The turbo-superchargers were troublesome.. main reasons it was taken out of NW Europe and trying to fight Me109 at high Alts and high maintenance but successful fighting the japs not having to fly at high altitude so much...and warmer air.. slower jap planes.

Tiger!



Erik Rutins -> RE: Optimum fighter altitudes - how do I know whats best AE (6/14/2009 1:29:50 PM)

Keep in mind that in AE, maneuver is not the be all/end all. Speed and Altitude advantage can count for a lot. So a plan that's faster and higher (and less maneuverable) can beat a more maneuverable, slower and lower altitude enemy. I'm guessing that answers the question regarding whether "boom and zoom" or slashing type attacks are possible? In AE, yes. You should also look at the maneuverability of your enemy's planes as while you may have a drop of in maneuverability as your plan goes higher, perhaps the enemy plane drops off even more, etc. Finding the right altitude is an interesting exercise in AE, combining friendly and enemy speed and maneuver and current altitude info, in my experience.



Mike Scholl -> RE: Optimum fighter altitudes - how do I know whats best AE (6/14/2009 1:43:06 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Jorm

I that right about the p38, didnt most models suffer badly from high speed compressability issues, ie in a high speed dive ?



ALL aircraft sufferred from "compressibility issues" if they went fast enough. P-38's were just among the first to be able to go fast enough to discover "compressibility".



Yakface -> RE: Optimum fighter altitudes - how do I know whats best AE (6/14/2009 2:30:46 PM)

How is the altitude at which combat takes place determined.

For example if the CAP is at 10,000ft and a sweep comes in at 25,000ft where does combat take place?



Hard Sarge -> RE: Optimum fighter altitudes - how do I know whats best AE (6/14/2009 2:39:27 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Terminus

Maybe he's thinking about the -G...?


I would go with the G and the H, after that, that was not much of a issue anymore, the alot of the power/engine stuff was corrected starting with the J also(plus as been stated, the issues above 20 K in the ETO are not the same issues in the PTO)

plus fighting Zeros is not the same as fighting 109s



TheElf -> RE: Optimum fighter altitudes - how do I know whats best AE (6/14/2009 5:04:25 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Mike Scholl


quote:

ORIGINAL: Jorm

I that right about the p38, didnt most models suffer badly from high speed compressability issues, ie in a high speed dive ?



ALL aircraft sufferred from "compressibility issues" if they went fast enough. P-38's were just among the first to be able to go fast enough to discover "compressibility".

I'd rather be "plagued" with compressibility issues, than "I can't keep up" issues...



byron13 -> RE: Optimum fighter altitudes - how do I know whats best AE (6/14/2009 7:57:59 PM)

And will the P-39 provide at least respectable performance at lower altitudes?



Nikademus -> RE: Optimum fighter altitudes - how do I know whats best AE (6/14/2009 8:55:56 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: tigercub

Quoting of the top of my head can lead to poor memory lol yes there best performance was 25,000 But Quote:P38J in NW Europe. over 20,000 the Allison engines suffered sluggish oil that refused to flow properly in the intense cold of high altitude,leading to heavy oil consumption an engine life of only 80 hours and frequent engine failure....The turbo-superchargers were troublesome.. main reasons it was taken out of NW Europe and trying to fight Me109 at high Alts and high maintenance but successful fighting the japs not having to fly at high altitude so much...and warmer air.. slower jap planes.

Tiger!



P-38 in Pacific didn't have nearly the trouble at the mentioned higher alts due to climate. The light Zero didn't have as much preformance loss vs. the heavier 1st gen Allied planes but it was at it's best under 20K, while the 109 was more at home up higher. In the mentioned warmer climate, the P-38 was also comfortably at home above 20K in the pacific ...where it had the edge in speed, climb rate and firepower over the zero. Standard tactic was to use this and the superior dive speed to make slashing attacks from alt advantage zooming upwards afterwards in a climb the Zero couldn't match. Because of their high alt preformance edge over the Zero, they were rarely caught in a position where they would be forced to engage in close quarter combat. (Bergerud - Fire in the Sky)




jwilkerson -> RE: Optimum fighter altitudes - how do I know whats best AE (6/14/2009 8:58:19 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: TheElf

I'd rather be "plagued" with compressibility issues, than "I can't keep up" issues...




Yeah, in my game with Nik, my Rufe's seem to be having that "anti-compressibility" issue - I keep seeing a message like "can't catch bombers" when I put my Rufe's on cap. It's that darned "anti-compressibility" issue again!




Nikademus -> RE: Optimum fighter altitudes - how do I know whats best AE (6/14/2009 9:01:16 PM)

my heavy bombers laugh at your funny looking pseudo fighters. [:D]



jwilkerson -> RE: Optimum fighter altitudes - how do I know whats best AE (6/14/2009 9:02:09 PM)

Your heavy bombers must be having "compressibility" issues.
[:D]



Nikademus -> RE: Optimum fighter altitudes - how do I know whats best AE (6/14/2009 9:06:27 PM)

naw....i'd say their having laughability issues which in turn are affecting their accuracy due to teary eyes. [:)]



crsutton -> RE: Optimum fighter altitudes - how do I know whats best AE (6/14/2009 11:25:12 PM)

The J model (I think) had dive brakes added to help it pull out of high speed dives. Really were multi use combat brakes. Top pilots could manipulate them in combat and do some nasty manuevers. I don't know if the J model was used in NW Europe, but it would have been a match for about any other fighter. Late model P38 was a "hot" fighter. Only real fault was that it was too expensive to make vs single engine planes.



Dili -> RE: Optimum fighter altitudes - how do I know whats best AE (6/15/2009 4:11:37 AM)

It is not a very good idea to use brakes in air combat, unless you are risking to be a mush in the ground.



tigercub -> RE: Optimum fighter altitudes - how do I know whats best AE (6/15/2009 4:47:24 AM)

P38 a hot fighter...NO way good Fighter VS Japs its speed and diving gave it a Distinct Advantage its slashing attacks were very had to counter for slow Jap planes VS German fighters was far harder for this type of attack, P38 was No world beater in Europe but it was very usefull in 1943 in Italy were it did best.
Twin engine planes all ways had a problem fighting single engine planes but the P38 was one of the better ones.
Nikademus(The Zero out climbed the P38 its only the Bounce attack of using its speed diving onto a zero and climbing away is when it was better)
from a standing start to 20,000 feet the zero was a faster climber.
Tiger!
  



Grotius -> RE: Optimum fighter altitudes - how do I know whats best AE (6/15/2009 5:03:30 AM)

quote:

How is the altitude at which combat takes place determined.

For example if the CAP is at 10,000ft and a sweep comes in at 25,000ft where does combat take place?

I'm curious about this too.



Nikademus -> RE: Optimum fighter altitudes - how do I know whats best AE (6/15/2009 2:43:25 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: tigercub
Nikademus(The Zero out climbed the P38 its only the Bounce attack of using its speed diving onto a zero and climbing away is when it was better)
from a standing start to 20,000 feet the zero was a faster climber.
Tiger!
  


The reference i cited referred to the P-38 engaging Zeros from alt advantage above 20,000 feet from which it could then zoom climb after it's pass, utilzing it's power and speed to regain and retain altitude advantage. Under these conditions, the Lightning could outclimb the Zero.



Sardaukar -> RE: Optimum fighter altitudes - how do I know whats best AE (6/15/2009 3:01:50 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: TheElf

I'd rather be "plagued" with compressibility issues, than "I can't keep up" issues...



I think I'd be quite disturbed about compressiblity...words come to my mind..like "auger" and "lawn dart" [:'(] But that's why I don't fly planes...[:D]

BTW, as others have asked, how does the program determine in which altitude opposing aircraft meet in A2A combat? For example, CAP is at 20k and Sweep is coming in at 25k? Is it some function of detection and climb rates etc. ? Or does the lower altitude participant try to climb at all to meet enemy at more equal ground? If I recall correctly, higher altitude plane has quite an advantage in AE, lowering the maneuverability of the lower altitude one?



Kwik E Mart -> RE: Optimum fighter altitudes - how do I know whats best AE (6/15/2009 5:32:01 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Dili

It is not a very good idea to use brakes in air combat, unless you are risking to be a mush in the ground.


Why not? It worked great for Maverick...[;)]



medicff -> RE: Optimum fighter altitudes - how do I know whats best AE (6/15/2009 9:44:22 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Grotius

quote:

How is the altitude at which combat takes place determined.

For example if the CAP is at 10,000ft and a sweep comes in at 25,000ft where does combat take place?

I'm curious about this too.


I will third that request [;)]



tondern -> RE: Optimum fighter altitudes - how do I know whats best AE (6/15/2009 11:04:53 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: medicff


quote:

ORIGINAL: Grotius

quote:

How is the altitude at which combat takes place determined.

For example if the CAP is at 10,000ft and a sweep comes in at 25,000ft where does combat take place?

I'm curious about this too.


I will third that request [;)]



I will "fourth it" and add two other altitude questions.

If you have your fighters on escort, are they most effective at EXACTLY the same altitude as the bombers, or if they fly high cover (plus several thousand feet). I don't want to learn this the hard way by losing many of my available bombers in the first two weeks.

And if you expect enemy bombers at, say 17,000, should you set CAP at exactly 17,000 or try to give them a couple of thousand feet of altitude advantage?

Thanks,
Johnny





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