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Marshal Villars -> RE: 1792 No frills PBEM (9/5/2009 9:52:51 PM)
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BEFORE ANYONE READS WHAT IS BELOW, REALIZE I AM FOR EVERY SINGLE PLAYER HERE HAVING A VETO OVER ANY CHANGES OR ADDITIONS OF HOUSE RULES. SO WE WOULD ALL HAVE TO AGREE.
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You know, I wanted to recommend that we discuss this when I started to notice the effect of protectorate transfers, but I was dissuaded from bringing it up. However, I think now is the time. It is my strong opinion that the transfer of whole protectorates or portions of protectorates to anyone should be prohibited unless it is in a forced peace treaty. I was willing to live with it when the number of protectorates was small, but the potential for abuse is now so high, that I don't know what to say anymore.
Just the first problem with this situation is that a protectorate, when transferred, becomes a homeland province of the accepting nation! This allows any nation to convert protectorates into home land provinces by transferring them to allies and having them transferred back again. Currently, there is NO rule against it.
An extreme example: All of Germany's minor powers which sought out British protection could now, without a hiccup, be handed to another power for wholesale incorporation into another nation's lands, and apparently there isn't a prince in Germany who would complain.
Another issue which I wanted to bring up before, but decided against it because this is "vanilla", is the following problem: I could liberate Genoa and attack it the next turn and incorporate it into France. Fine, this is just an isolated incident, but what happens if this happens 10 times? Do protectorates of powers like this stay protectorates?
In "vanilla" CoG:EE they do. But it is my strong opinion that if someone liberates a protectorate and then declares war on it within one year, that he must then liberate all of his protectorates. If he waits longer than a year to attack it after liberating it, then no problem. If it is liberated through insurrection, then no problem, go ahead and attack it without penalty I guess...or lose 50% of all of your protectorates randomly if attacked within a year as determined with some random method).
If you see my "Thoughts on Treaties" thread, you will see that I have had these concerns for some time, but did not want to post here because of the use of the world "vanilla" when recruiting players.
I don't care if Kingmaker is the appointed rules interpreter if things get grey. And I have nothing against Kingmaker (indeed, I admire his knowledge of the CoG:EE system and his play enough to have dubbed this:"Kingmaker's school of CoG:EE" [:D]. However, I do like to play games with a little realism, and this is really just about to blow it for me. Note, I have no problem with Kingmaker, his style of play (which is always an interesting education in the mechanics of CoG:EE), or with him as a person. In fact, I believe Kingmaker is a player of high integrity who likes to win--and there ain't a damned thing wrong with that! How much integrity do I believe Kingmaker has? So much, that if we had to determine protectorate losses by die roll, I think I would be happy having him do it, but there are better and verifiable ways which would make everyone feel better I think. Indeed, in the period where we had no Spanish player, as everyone can see above, I seconded Montesaurus's recommendation to allow Kingmaker to do the Spanish moves (because I am here to test and take notes on problems...not just to win).
In some aspects, I too wanted to play "vanilla" to see how things worked. For instance, and especially, insurrections. However, I have felt for some time that the protectorate problem has been broken and finally felt I had to speak.
Anyway, those are my thoughts. Now, we can keep playing vanilla if everyone wants to. Or we can consider this. Either way, I will keep playing, knowing exactly what needs to be changed in the next CoG:EE patch (or the one after that).
(By the way, the Kingdom of Naples and the Austrian Netherlands were controlled by the larger ruling families of their kingdoms--however, I have a strong feeling that abilities to do anything they pleased with the lands were strongly curbed. So as such, my recommendations to the scenario designer would be to make these regions part of the nations instead of making them protectorates--which should be fully sovereign nations looking for help to keep the greedy French off of them and remain independent).
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