How much did it cost? (Full Version)

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Footslogger -> How much did it cost? (6/20/2009 12:30:40 AM)

Just how many millions did it take to build the sunkin shups at Pearl Harbor, just after the attack? And was the Secretary of the Navy at fault? In the movie Pearl Harbor, the Defense Secretary said, That it was too costly to mobilize the fleet at the cost of millions of dollars to do it" What was the name of that guy anyway? [sm=character0267.gif]



Elessar -> RE: How much did it cost? (6/20/2009 12:39:55 AM)

Maybe some of the people on this forum might not react to well to your mentioning this movie.

It does not really present historical facts. You might just as well believe in Santa Claus...



Nemo121 -> RE: How much did it cost? (6/20/2009 12:46:47 AM)

In Pearl Harbour they also had Japanese planes attacking 1970s/80s USN DDGs and a US pilot transferring from an Eagle Squadron back into a USAAF fighter squadron. [8|] [8|] [8|]



tocaff -> RE: How much did it cost? (6/20/2009 12:46:59 AM)

That unnameable movie got the name of the base right and not much more.  Kind of typical for Hollywood.  [:-]



Footslogger -> RE: How much did it cost? (6/20/2009 1:23:10 AM)

Being that the movie wasn't fact based, if Admiral Kimmel had deployed the fleet, would the loss of life been much less?



CarnageINC -> RE: How much did it cost? (6/20/2009 2:48:14 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Footslogger

Being that the movie wasn't fact based, if Admiral Kimmel had deployed the fleet, would the loss of life been much less?


I don't think so, in deep seas we would of been more screwed. Those ships wouldn't of been recovered for sure....unless they hired a future Howard Huges or the director of 'Raise the Titantic' [:D]



Cap Mandrake -> RE: How much did it cost? (6/20/2009 2:51:28 AM)

It is preposterous that it would have taken millions of dollars for the pre-war BB's at Pearl to put to sea before the attack. By todays standards, fuel oil was cheap. Of course, when at sea they might have been utterly destroyed by the Jap carriers with greater loss of life.

As for the actual cost of the ships....Arizona, for eg, was ordered in 1913 and had several upgrades. It would be difficult to tease out what those costs were and then you woudl have to convert them to '41 dollars....if I understand the question.


You might be able to find the 1913 procurement budget for the US Navy somewhere.

In any event, a naval commander would likely not make such a calculus as his conern would be to preserve the fighting power of his forces and prevent loss of trained personnel unless he could inflict a greater damage on the enemy or achieve some important strategic or orperational objective by putting them in harms way.

Consider the national treasure and lives lost for Guadalcanal. There was nothing there of any value except the chance to defeat the Japanese and win the war faster.




Knavey -> RE: How much did it cost? (6/20/2009 3:24:40 AM)

WAIT!

You mean that the movie ***** ****** is not fact based?

I need to go lie down. That is perposterous! [:D]



Fallschirmjager -> RE: How much did it cost? (6/20/2009 4:49:02 AM)

I don't think it really matters the cost. The morale boost that was gained by raising those ships and then using them later in the war to pound Japanese targets and provide AA cover cannot be measured.



stuman -> RE: How much did it cost? (6/20/2009 6:43:01 AM)

TMTMNBN ( The Movie That Must Not Be Named ) is more smelly than mud dredged up from the foulest backwater lagoon. It  is barely permissable to acknowledge that Kate Beckinsale is very attractive. ( It is for some reason running a lot on Comcast where I live. I have been suffering from severe  headaches lately ). If you started a drinking game whereby you had to pound a drink everytime someone pointed out an incorrect fact, logic flaw, or plot hole, then the whole group would die from alcohol poisoning before the end credits.




thegreatwent -> RE: How much did it cost? (6/20/2009 6:46:27 AM)

Gah, stupid film! Must smash head on keyboard [&o][&o][&o][&o][&o][&o][&o][&o][&o][&o][&o][&o][&o][&o][&o][&o][&o][&o] aaaaaaaahhhhhhhhh!!!!!!

Better, come blessed Morpheus......[>:]



DivePac88 -> RE: How much did it cost? (6/20/2009 8:32:56 AM)

A recent survey of soccer mums showed that the type of person most likely to watch that ‘dreaded Movie that must not be named’, were most likely look like this.

[image]local://upfiles/30275/23122477ED54432081676E4536287E15.jpg[/image]



88l71 -> RE: How much did it cost? (6/20/2009 9:21:36 AM)

And apparently the USAAF never heard of the idea of actually training bomber crews, using fighter pilots instead....


Man, why is it the ETO in WWII gets waaaay better movies?



rtrapasso -> RE: How much did it cost? (6/20/2009 1:20:25 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: CarnageINC


quote:

ORIGINAL: Footslogger

Being that the movie wasn't fact based, if Admiral Kimmel had deployed the fleet, would the loss of life been much less?


I don't think so, in deep seas we would of been more screwed. Those ships wouldn't of been recovered for sure....unless they hired a future Howard Huges or the director of 'Raise the Titantic' [:D]


The "they would have been sunk in deep water" theory generally doesn't take into account that if the fleet had been at sea, the IJN probably wouldn't have been able to find them in any kind of "sneak attack" scenario... and the KB was critically low on fuel to start with* so it probably wouldn't have enough to conduct any kind of operations except the hit and run attack that was carried out: i.e.: it would not have been able to conduct a prolonged "search and destroy" mission if the fleet had not been at Harbor... of course, they might have gotten lucky and caught the fleet just outside the harbor, but this would depend on when the fleet sortied, etc.


*The original attack plan called for the KB to be scuttled after the attack due to lack of fuel [X(] [X(]... the IJN staff (rather late in the evolution of the plan) came up with a way to refuel the KB.



gladiatt -> RE: How much did it cost? (6/20/2009 1:55:51 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Elessar

Maybe some of the people on this forum might not react to well to your mentioning this movie.

It does not really present historical facts. You might just as well believe in Santa Claus...



You mean Santa Claus is not real ?[sm=sign0063.gif]



moonraker65 -> RE: How much did it cost? (6/20/2009 2:34:56 PM)

I've always found Tora Tora Tora to be a true reflection of the Pearl Harbor Attack. No CGI but good special effects for its day.



Ambassador -> RE: How much did it cost? (6/20/2009 3:18:00 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: 88l71
Man, why is it the ETO in WWII gets waaaay better movies?

If you're thinking about the Battle of the Bulge movie, you need some rest.[:'(]

Hollywood has as much problems with ETO as with PTO. I dread the day when a movie will be made with a scene featuring Himmler duellling a private from the Big Red One on a bridge, and telling him "I am your father".[8|]



Cap Mandrake -> RE: How much did it cost? (6/20/2009 3:34:39 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ambassador


quote:

ORIGINAL: 88l71
Man, why is it the ETO in WWII gets waaaay better movies?

If you're thinking about the Battle of the Bulge movie, you need some rest.[:'(]

Hollywood has as much problems with ETO as with PTO. I dread the day when a movie will be made with a scene featuring Himmler duellling a private from the Big Red One on a bridge, and telling him "I am your father".[8|]


I think you are being too critical. sometimes hollywood gets it right. There is that one, for eg., where the US Navy captures the Enigma machine.



DivePac88 -> RE: How much did it cost? (6/20/2009 4:15:05 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Cap Mandrake

I think you are being too critical. sometimes hollywood gets it right. There is that one, for eg., where the US Navy captures the Enigma machine.


Whaaat(choking)... Yes, but their story line has the wrong Navy capturing the Enigma. [:D]

EDIT. I just got suckered-in didn't I.



Cap Mandrake -> RE: How much did it cost? (6/20/2009 4:16:18 PM)

[;)]



Charles2222 -> RE: How much did it cost? (6/20/2009 5:18:19 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: rtrapasso


quote:

ORIGINAL: CarnageINC


quote:

ORIGINAL: Footslogger

Being that the movie wasn't fact based, if Admiral Kimmel had deployed the fleet, would the loss of life been much less?


I don't think so, in deep seas we would of been more screwed. Those ships wouldn't of been recovered for sure....unless they hired a future Howard Huges or the director of 'Raise the Titantic' [:D]


The "they would have been sunk in deep water" theory generally doesn't take into account that if the fleet had been at sea, the IJN probably wouldn't have been able to find them in any kind of "sneak attack" scenario... and the KB was critically low on fuel to start with* so it probably wouldn't have enough to conduct any kind of operations except the hit and run attack that was carried out: i.e.: it would not have been able to conduct a prolonged "search and destroy" mission if the fleet had not been at Harbor... of course, they might have gotten lucky and caught the fleet just outside the harbor, but this would depend on when the fleet sortied, etc.


*The original attack plan called for the KB to be scuttled after the attack due to lack of fuel [X(] [X(]... the IJN staff (rather late in the evolution of the plan) came up with a way to refuel the KB.


Big deal, a lot of original plans turn out to be stupid, and are understandingly corrected later on. Sheesh, it's so stupid it's not even worth bringing up, because how could a force as good as that fleet, fair worse than if they used it somewhere else and just left PH alone? Losing every single ship to scuttling, what could be worse? The only good thing is you might be able to sink every ship in the immediate area, since your planes would have nowhere to go but continuing strikes. Perhaps 'the original plan' called for land force invasion as well, something that leaving the fleet without fuel to get back in immediate fashion might had been worth the danger, but to scuttle them entirely, even before anything could arrive to do any re-fueling, had you dominated the area for a good spell, what could be stupider? Kind of like sending 4EB's deep into the heart of Germany without escorts; that was a lovely realized plan that was.



rtrapasso -> RE: How much did it cost? (6/20/2009 10:17:18 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Charles_22


quote:

ORIGINAL: rtrapasso


quote:

ORIGINAL: CarnageINC


quote:

ORIGINAL: Footslogger

Being that the movie wasn't fact based, if Admiral Kimmel had deployed the fleet, would the loss of life been much less?


I don't think so, in deep seas we would of been more screwed. Those ships wouldn't of been recovered for sure....unless they hired a future Howard Huges or the director of 'Raise the Titantic' [:D]


The "they would have been sunk in deep water" theory generally doesn't take into account that if the fleet had been at sea, the IJN probably wouldn't have been able to find them in any kind of "sneak attack" scenario... and the KB was critically low on fuel to start with* so it probably wouldn't have enough to conduct any kind of operations except the hit and run attack that was carried out: i.e.: it would not have been able to conduct a prolonged "search and destroy" mission if the fleet had not been at Harbor... of course, they might have gotten lucky and caught the fleet just outside the harbor, but this would depend on when the fleet sortied, etc.


*The original attack plan called for the KB to be scuttled after the attack due to lack of fuel [X(] [X(]... the IJN staff (rather late in the evolution of the plan) came up with a way to refuel the KB.


Big deal, a lot of original plans turn out to be stupid, and are understandingly corrected later on. Sheesh, it's so stupid it's not even worth bringing up, because how could a force as good as that fleet, fair worse than if they used it somewhere else and just left PH alone? Losing every single ship to scuttling, what could be worse? The only good thing is you might be able to sink every ship in the immediate area, since your planes would have nowhere to go but continuing strikes. Perhaps 'the original plan' called for land force invasion as well, something that leaving the fleet without fuel to get back in immediate fashion might had been worth the danger, but to scuttle them entirely, even before anything could arrive to do any re-fueling, had you dominated the area for a good spell, what could be stupider? Kind of like sending 4EB's deep into the heart of Germany without escorts; that was a lovely realized plan that was.


The thing that floored me about it was THEY WERE GOING TO GO THROUGH WITH IT!!

It wasn't until a few weeks before they sailed (iirc) that someone finally figured out how to refuel the KB... to me it makes no sense at all to consider such a plan, let alone put it into action (i.e. - training, drawing up detailed plans, etc.) There was something about the Bushido spirit justifying the whole thing, etc.

i'll have to try to find the references again (i've seen it in more than one place) to see when the refueling got added.

EDIT: The main reason i brought this up was to emphasize the tight nature of the fuel supply for the KB - it could not afford to run around hunting for an American fleet that was not in port... it could barely get back to Japan, apparently, and conducting a fleet action to hunt for the USN ships away from any kind of support was pretty much out of the question.




khyberbill -> RE: How much did it cost? (6/20/2009 11:31:52 PM)

quote:

I think you are being too critical. sometimes hollywood gets it right. There is that one, for eg., where the US Navy captures the Enigma machine.


And lets not forget Kellys Heros[&o]



Barb -> RE: How much did it cost? (6/21/2009 9:05:42 AM)

One thing almost allways slipped out from "USN out at sea". If they were attacked at open sea, there is surely plenty of space to maneuver. High alt bombers (Kate with 800kg bombs) woudnt hit almost nothing. Torpedo carrying Kates will not find their target immobilized - and it is harder to hit moving ship. So I would say less ships will be damaged, but thode hit severly would be total loss.

Another thing is - if the USN sortied, jap spy will surely send a message about it on saturday. KB will then turn around without firing a bullet as they will think whole thing was  uncovered.



88l71 -> RE: How much did it cost? (6/21/2009 6:00:42 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Ambassador


quote:

ORIGINAL: 88l71
Man, why is it the ETO in WWII gets waaaay better movies?

If you're thinking about the Battle of the Bulge movie, you need some rest.[:'(]

Hollywood has as much problems with ETO as with PTO. I dread the day when a movie will be made with a scene featuring Himmler duellling a private from the Big Red One on a bridge, and telling him "I am your father".[8|]


Well there's plenty of bad ETO movies but there's few PTO movies the quality of, say, Band of Brothers, Das Boot, Stalingrad, A Bridge Too Far, etc.



bradfordkay -> RE: How much did it cost? (6/22/2009 7:25:48 AM)

Kate Beckinsale is very attractive. 



DivePac88 -> RE: How much did it cost? (6/22/2009 9:57:45 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: bradfordkay

Kate Beckinsale is very attractive. 


You are Digressing. [;)]



stuman -> RE: How much did it cost? (6/22/2009 10:08:45 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: DivePac88


quote:

ORIGINAL: bradfordkay

Kate Beckinsale is very attractive. 


You are Digressing. [;)]


Well, maybe he is. But she is really good looking. Just say'n you know.



Przemcio231 -> RE: How much did it cost? (6/22/2009 10:16:42 AM)

Well if you want to learn history from Hollywood movies... better drop it as they are not worth a damn... Like the movie "Defiance" about some Jewish partisans... well the only thing true about it
was that there was such a group but they were never seriously hunted by the Germans and the movie forgots to tell that those fellows collaborated with the NKVD or they were robbing peasants in what was eastern Poland or that they commited attrocitis against the poles... and saying that Nowogrodek was a belarussian town in which no one spoke polish is some kind of crap....!!!! Well but what should you expect from the Hollywood...



DivePac88 -> RE: How much did it cost? (6/22/2009 11:19:15 AM)

The Hollywood movie industry possibly operates in the same way that the New Zealand television industry has operated. About two years ago the programming on most channels in the evening was horrible, mainly consisting reality shows from Aussie and teenage situation programs from the States. As was to be expected these channels faced a fall in their ratings, and looked in to the reasons for the decline in viewers.

It was found that the programming was being influenced by the advertisers, and that the advertisers were targeting the group with the highest disposable income. The group with the highest disposable income was the eighteen to twenty-five year old age group, but the problem was that most of this age group doesn’t much watch television anyway. So the finding was that the television industry was programming for a demographic that wasn’t watching their channels much anyway. [:D]



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