RE: War in China (Full Version)

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Shannon V. OKeets -> RE: War in China (6/30/2009 10:30:58 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Petracelli69

Interesting to see how it has changed. A question for the beta testers is when Japan goes all out for China is it with the new hex scale more likley than in the boardgame to conqueour China as imo this would affect the game balance.

Cheers

Phil

I am coming around to the opinion that overall not much has changed from WIF FE.

Japan tries to kill Chinese units and is lucky if they can kill 2 in an impulse. Some whole turns pass with no Chinese units being lost. Small losses for the Japanese, or even just having a lot of units become disorganized, brings their offensive to a screeching halt. Only after new units arrive, or everyone becomes reorganized can it begin again. And then if the Japanese are building just a bunch of infantry and other land units, what is the war against the US going to be like?

China has to be careful not to lose resources or else their production falls off. The trick for Japan is to kill Chinese units faster than the Chinese can replace them.

Partisans in the rear are a concern for Japan, since they have to be dealt with or supply to the frontline will disappear. That means some Japanese units are just sitting around looking at the scenery.

This all seems really familar to me when I played over the board on a completely different map.



brian brian -> RE: War in China (7/1/2009 12:02:16 AM)

It is intriguing. I think China could be doing better in this example game if they would stack their units, even at set-up. This could lead to more casualties but that would require better luck for Japan. Without higher combat rolls, the Japanese would be disorganized more often and progress would slow. But attacking single Chinese units is too easy for the Japanese. On the other hand, the flanks are much bigger now. But for the Chinese, I say stack units or retreat, not just give up so many single units (every unit lost so far from what I have seen). And have the Chinese called any blitz combats to conserve their units? Though again when there is only one of them it is likely to die in a blitz too.

And I think China could be doing a bit more to mess with the Japanese by sending out some Cavalry divisions (especially 5 movement point Communist ones) to threaten Japanese supply lines. Away from the coast, Japan can only be in supply in three areas but China is much bigger than that. I don't understand the defense of central China between Si-An and Chang-Sha, it is just more single units given away in an area without a rail line ... let the Japanase come in here, they would need two HQs and long exposed flanks for that to pay off at all.

And it would be awesome to build purely infantry as Japan but one rarely has that luxury; Japan has such a hard time disorganizing units that I have them build more planes and artillery to work on this problem. But then if the Chinese never stack their pieces the Japanese don't really need to disorganize them to defeat them.

As for the Russians, I do not suggest them messing around in Asia until it is definite that Germany has placed it's bet on a strategy other than '41 Barbarossa, so it is perfectly fine to ignore that possibility for a test game.

Don't know if you wanted a commentary on this game but one seemed to have started ... maybe this topic would be better in the China AI thread.

I do like the new 'river' railroads a lot though.



lomyrin -> RE: War in China (7/1/2009 12:26:14 AM)

I think comments are fine and the more discussion that occurs the better since that shows interest by potential players of this game.

Stacking  Chinese of course make them stronger but there are not very many Chinese around at this time and it is a long haul.  There are 2 unit Chinese stacks in Si -An and in Changsha for the moment.

Chinese Cav Divs are nice to have and they can indeed help mess with the Japanese lines and supply but at the cost of not having them at the front. We have just gone through winter with movement much slower than in fine weather and that would have limited Chinese raiders effectiveness.

As for stacking Chinese in general a lot of players do and as many feel it is not good to do so.

Here Japan had the fortune of some good weather impulses in the middle of winter. Japan has lost units, not as many as the Chinese but they all have to be transported by sea to get to the fight.



lomyrin -> RE: War in China (7/1/2009 12:33:54 AM)

The fourth turn, March/April 40 continues with rain in the north and fine in the south.

Japan did take Kweillin last impulse and the Chinese are scrambling to maintain a front. The CAV fron the center front has reached the northern end of the south front and a Div from Chang Sha is also moving south.

The small Mil in the center was knocked out by much larger Japanese attackers but it does leave those Japanese units away from the other fighting areas and a bit in nowhere. This was the Kunming Mil that can be rebuilt at low cost.

In the north Japan took out the Communist large Infantry unitbut it cost them 2 units lost and 3 more disrupted.

Next turn, 30 % end of turn now, will see 2 Communist units and 1 Nationalist Infantry and likely a Mil as reinforcements.




[image]local://upfiles/19136/A3B7EBEBF7AD40DBA621D450080C88C1.jpg[/image]



lomyrin -> RE: War in China (7/1/2009 4:08:00 AM)

The turn ended on the 30% chance and CHina got to place reinforcements.

The May/Jun turn began with Japanese initiative but the worst weather possible in M/J. With storms all over China Japan could not do anything much.

The Chinese impulse is already impulse 3 so the turn will be fairly short. China moves up to the front a Communist new Mountain unit and the Nationalists a new infantry in the south. There is also the Kunming Mil rebuilt. Not much action but next Japanese impulse will almost ceratinly have fine weather.



[image]local://upfiles/19136/044C6CE07935498B835B1E60DDB4EC35.jpg[/image]



Greywolf -> RE: War in China (7/1/2009 8:29:05 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets


quote:

ORIGINAL: Petracelli69

Interesting to see how it has changed. A question for the beta testers is when Japan goes all out for China is it with the new hex scale more likley than in the boardgame to conqueour China as imo this would affect the game balance.

Cheers

Phil

I am coming around to the opinion that overall not much has changed from WIF FE.

Japan tries to kill Chinese units and is lucky if they can kill 2 in an impulse. Some whole turns pass with no Chinese units being lost. Small losses for the Japanese, or even just having a lot of units become disorganized, brings their offensive to a screeching halt. Only after new units arrive, or everyone becomes reorganized can it begin again. And then if the Japanese are building just a bunch of infantry and other land units, what is the war against the US going to be like?

China has to be careful not to lose resources or else their production falls off. The trick for Japan is to kill Chinese units faster than the Chinese can replace them.

Partisans in the rear are a concern for Japan, since they have to be dealt with or supply to the frontline will disappear. That means some Japanese units are just sitting around looking at the scenery.

This all seems really familar to me when I played over the board on a completely different map.


This game is not significant because the Chinese player is in dummy mode, playing punching ball to the Japanese. He(It?) didn't try anything even remotely aggressive to hinder the japanese movement or threaten his supply lines. He give up the best defense line without a fight. Didn't set up any unit in the South East China mountain Range, where they have real potential to cut the South push supply from Canton when they enter the mountain.

And that is a deluxe game with warlords, remove them and see how hard it became for Japan to cover his supply lines against weak Chinese Cav rush...

And the fact the Japaneses player is 100% sure of no Russian intervention AND didn't have to plan for a war against USA... well it made it a totally different game, how much of the Japanese production is used in China here that should have been used in building the Navy for war against USA ? All the Japanese HQ are deeply in China and wont be able to roll back to Russian front fast enough in case of crisis... not without letting all the japanese troups stranded...



Mad Russian -> RE: War in China (7/1/2009 1:54:34 PM)

It's all a trade off.

Ignore the Russian threat? I've done that early in the war to go hard after China.

Ignore the US and see if you can take China out or put her on the ropes? I've done that before as well. If we win in China the US has a whole new set of problems. And here's a news flash for you, Japan rarely stops the US from beating them if you build only to go to war against the US. A better strategy might be to at least cripple China and release a lot more Japanese troops for the US to have to deal with. That's what makes WiF such a great game. Everything works sometimes and nothing works all the time.

Run through the basics of the new game and see how it affects the war in China? Good Job. Keep the posts coming.

Good Hunting.

MR



lomyrin -> RE: War in China (7/1/2009 5:09:41 PM)

I do not believe that China can seriously interfere with the Japanese lines early in the war, there are not enough Chinese around to do that. Any Chinese unit in the rear of the Japanese lines is one that is not on the main defensive front and it is also llikely to be out of supply itself.  The Southeast mountains are a case in point. as soon as it moves away from ChangSha area it is out of supply and easily cut off.

China can, however, cause Japan to build a lot of infantry instead of ships and they can hold the resourses away from Japan for quite some time while the Japanese troops get further and further into the landmass and away from the seacoast. This interferes with Japan's ability to prepare for the greater Pacific war and their readiness to hit the CW hard to begin that war. Japan is under time pressure to get the Chinese resourses under their control. Here it is already May/Jun of 40 and Japan has not yet got control of a single extra resourse, but it looks like it will fairly soon.

Once Japan gets involved in the greater Pacific war China can often build up forces and come back and do the raiding against the resources to deny them to Japan.

There is one other side to this situation, a solitaire game such as this one does not lend itself to a lot of surprises from the other side.




lomyrin -> RE: War in China (7/1/2009 5:54:06 PM)

For the 2nd Japanese impulse the weather has cleared, fine in the north and rain in the south.

The Japanese units in the south are now almost all out of supply, moving the HQ Yamamoto east would disrupt it but place some units back in supply. It would adversely affect future moves this turn and it does not move. No action in this front.

In the center the 5 HQ moves towards Shang Sha. This city is a very important rail junction and is needed for further advance and resources for Japan.
Some of the units in the south are also looking to move north when they can.

In the north Japan knocks out the Si-An Mil from the hex Southeast or Si-An.

[image]local://upfiles/19136/28F0979FC21B4F6981C7681E1B734258.jpg[/image]



Gurggulk -> RE: War in China (7/1/2009 8:11:19 PM)

lomyrin,

Thank you for taking the time and effort to post this thread.

The narration and pictures of your solitaire view, is a nice window to see how the game looks and plays, in the Far East.
Chinese marshall Lom, is doing a great job of showing a perfectly valid passive defense vs Japanese high command Yrin. Both Lom and Yrin are showing the battles are full of options to be explored when the game is released to be fought against other players and the AI. I look forward to some engaging AAR's when the marketing of the game is up and running.

I like the fact you have made it clear the weather plays a huge part in decision making. The random ending of the turn is also an important factor explained very well, to me.

If you could post some screens of the production track for both sides, from the beginning, it would be a nice addition to a wonderful thread made all the better by your commentary.

Keep up the good work. Im rooting for Chinese marshall Lom, and his Shau Lin Defense and hope Japanese high command Yrin, with his Karate Offense, is faced with more obstacles to overcome.



Froonp -> RE: War in China (7/1/2009 11:38:41 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Gurggulk

lomyrin,

Thank you for taking the time and effort to post this thread.

The narration and pictures of your solitaire view, is a nice window to see how the game looks and plays, in the Far East.
Chinese marshall Lom, is doing a great job of showing a perfectly valid passive defense vs Japanese high command Yrin. Both Lom and Yrin are showing the battles are full of options to be explored when the game is released to be fought against other players and the AI. I look forward to some engaging AAR's when the marketing of the game is up and running.

I like the fact you have made it clear the weather plays a huge part in decision making. The random ending of the turn is also an important factor explained very well, to me.

If you could post some screens of the production track for both sides, from the beginning, it would be a nice addition to a wonderful thread made all the better by your commentary.

Keep up the good work. Im rooting for Chinese marshall Lom, and his Shau Lin Defense and hope Japanese high command Yrin, with his Karate Offense, is faced with more obstacles to overcome.

I concur.

This is one of the most interesting threads in this forum. Thanks for doing that.



lomyrin -> RE: War in China (7/2/2009 2:42:56 AM)

It is now impulse 7 for Japan and the weather has changed to fine everywhere.

Japan groundstrikes Si-An but fails to disrupt either of the two units there. The follow up attack only succeeds in killing 1 Chines Garrison unit and losing a Japanese Div and all attacking units are disrupted so there is no more action possible on that front for this turn.

In the center Japanese forces are moving southwards towards ChangSha.

In the south HQ Yamamoto and other units, now back in supply, move north towards ChangSha. The city is a major strategic rail junction and is needed by Japan in order to ease their supply lines and get control of a new CCHionese resource. A fight for this city is likely in the near future.


[image]local://upfiles/19136/2CC58CAFBC1E4A64B424D4CCEE3094E5.jpg[/image]



lomyrin -> RE: War in China (7/2/2009 4:27:48 PM)

Japan's impulse 9 with fine weather everywhere again, summer is coming..

China moved their Chiang HQ to better be able to provide supply to the Chinese units in the southern mountains since Kweillin is no longer in Chinese hands.

Japan is consolidating its positions in the south and took the lightly defended hex west of ChangSha. This puts a lot of pressure on the city that Japan desperately wants to take. Japan now controls the resource south of CHangSha.

In the north the Chinese railed in reinforements to Si- An and Japan cannot do anything there for now.

[image]local://upfiles/19136/4469CB736F41487E9B11ADD333C66B26.jpg[/image]



composer99 -> RE: War in China (7/2/2009 5:34:12 PM)

It looks like by end of 1940 Japan will have 3 extra resources out of China. A long time coming, but they don't seem to have taken too heavy losses. In order to safeguard their gains over the long haul they need to take Yenan and push the Communists to Tianshui and clear out the Nationalist line between Naning and Chihkiang.



lomyrin -> RE: War in China (7/2/2009 5:55:06 PM)

Yes, that is not an atypical scenario in China but to hold their gains Japan will be hard pressed because they will also have to get ready for the main show.



Shannon V. OKeets -> RE: War in China (7/2/2009 6:08:14 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: composer99

It looks like by end of 1940 Japan will have 3 extra resources out of China. A long time coming, but they don't seem to have taken too heavy losses. In order to safeguard their gains over the long haul they need to take Yenan and push the Communists to Tianshui and clear out the Nationalist line between Naning and Chihkiang.

There is also another Communist Chinese held city NW of Yenan. But the possible arrival of any flanking units there can be monitored by a single Japanese unit (partially visible in the latest screen shot).



Gurggulk -> RE: War in China (7/2/2009 6:32:01 PM)

lomyrin

Is it possible to let us know the current US Entry? Maybe with the rolls that were associated with China?



lomyrin -> RE: War in China (7/2/2009 7:11:22 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Gurggulk

lomyrin

Is it possible to let us know the current US Entry? Maybe with the rolls that were associated with China?


The US entry level is progressing nicely but some aspects of the entry and roll for taken cities etc. are not fully operational as yet.



Petracelli69 -> RE: War in China (7/3/2009 8:42:04 PM)

Thanks for the feed back. Agree that China may have to double stack and that with China being twice as big the Japs will need at least two HQ's to have a secure supply line but it does concern me slightly that the Japs wouldbe able to lap around or pick off individual units. That said looking fporward to playing.

Phil



MajorDude -> RE: War in China (7/3/2009 9:55:20 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Gurggulk

lomyrin,

Thank you for taking the time and effort to post this thread.

...

If you could post some screens of the production track for both sides, from the beginning, it would be a nice addition to a wonderful thread made all the better by your commentary.

Keep up the good work...



I know it may sound a bit silly, but one of the things I sort of miss in cwif is being able to 'scrutinize' the 'production spiral'. I really liked the way it was set up because you could 'see at a glance' very quickly where things were at in terms of arrival and future production needs. It made planning for spring buildups to summer offensives a little bit easier. [8D]

But, yes, seeing the production tracks for this scenario could be interesting. [sm=happy0005.gif]

A quick question though, Steve mentioned the "Warlords". Since I have not played using this, how does it change things? [sm=character0013.gif]

Again, thanks for this really nice thread! [sm=happy0065.gif]



lomyrin -> RE: War in China (7/3/2009 10:36:40 PM)

The future unit arrivals are visible in MWiF just like the spiral is in CWiF. I am not  able to present it here since it takes much too many bytes to allow uploading.

The Warlords, an option, adds 4 units in China and 2 for Japan based on city controls. The Warlords can only move within 6 hexes of their base city.

In the latest screen the Chungking Warlord is in the central mountains, The Kunming one is in that city. The LanChow one is next to SI-An  Japan has one near Shanghai.



sajbalk -> RE: War in China (7/3/2009 10:53:41 PM)

There are 6 warlord units total. They are a bit unusual in that the moment a warlord's city is captured, even during the middle of a turn, the warlord is removed from the map and placed in the force pool of the capturing player.

So, if Gen. L's Japan moves into Chungking, the Chunking WL is removed from its mountain hide out and Japan can build it at the end of that turn.

These units help China in WiFFE because they grant greater unit density to China.

With the new unit density, it would seem well worthwhile for Japan to get its PARA corps and divisions in play ASAP. Many non-zoc'ed places available on the Chungking/Cheng-Tu area.






Shannon V. OKeets -> RE: War in China (7/3/2009 11:34:55 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: sajbalk

There are 6 warlord units total. They are a bit unusual in that the moment a warlord's city is captured, even during the middle of a turn, the warlord is removed from the map and placed in the force pool of the capturing player.

So, if Gen. L's Japan moves into Chungking, the Chunking WL is removed from its mountain hide out and Japan can build it at the end of that turn.

These units help China in WiFFE because they grant greater unit density to China.

With the new unit density, it would seem well worthwhile for Japan to get its PARA corps and divisions in play ASAP. Many non-zoc'ed places available on the Chungking/Cheng-Tu area.

For those interested in the Warlords, ...


[image]local://upfiles/16701/13CB558940014584ABB3D484C4B823EB.jpg[/image]



Shannon V. OKeets -> RE: War in China (7/3/2009 11:43:07 PM)

Here are how the reinforcements are displayed using the Pools form. This is Barbarossa, so you just see the USSR and German units (plus an Italian).

Notice that there are 6 separate [production] pools for reinforcements.

You can filter the units so when it gets late in the game and there are a lot of units, you could limit the display to just your units, for example.

[image]local://upfiles/16701/C3CFCFD2A3AD4AA59BC7D9FA5E64CAAC.jpg[/image]



Shannon V. OKeets -> RE: War in China (7/3/2009 11:48:01 PM)

I found another screen shot of the Pools form (these are from the Players Manual). This one is for Global War. Notice the 1st and 2nd which indicate whether the unit is in its 1st or 2nd cycle. The year sometimes matters too. For instance, the USSR has units in the production pools in Day of Infamy that come in several years after the start of the scenario.

[image]local://upfiles/16701/D1C3E4A5786A4D7A95F2B92426C9FE86.jpg[/image]



bjfagan -> RE: War in China (7/3/2009 11:54:20 PM)

Steve,

Will there be a fog of war option, so you can't see your opponent's builds?



lomyrin -> RE: War in China (7/4/2009 12:22:26 AM)

We are now in the July/August 40 turn and the weather in the north is fine but there is rain in the south.

The axis has the initiative and moved first. With rain in the south Japan took a combined and transported addtional uints to China but there was only limited movement and no attacks.

In the 2nd impulse the Chinese moved up some reinforcements to the front lines and made certain the southern mountains north city Chihkiang is manned and defended.

[image]local://upfiles/19136/7E38A66BAFF543EFBFF62C741BD691EC.jpg[/image]



lomyrin -> RE: War in China (7/4/2009 12:53:24 AM)

Now Japanese impulse 3 in July/August and fine summer weather in the north but storms in the south which is in the north Monsoon range.
Japan's movements and attacks are severely affected by the storms and they are only able to move a few units towards ChangSha but dare not attack.

Groudstrikes a gainst Si-An failed again and there are no attacks there either.

Every impulse lost where Japan does not attack helps the Chinese survive and gather strength and Japan to lose momentum with only some 5 turns left before they need to turn against the CW in the Pacific.

Japan is not worried about the Chinese warlord unit in Ankang, it is already at the limit of it's range from the home city of Chengtu.

[image]local://upfiles/19136/E15B936AC12D4391A0CB4CAE3A8A3AB3.jpg[/image]



Shannon V. OKeets -> RE: War in China (7/4/2009 1:19:25 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: bjfagan

Steve,

Will there be a fog of war option, so you can't see your opponent's builds?

Once units are built (i.e., in production), there is no fog of war.



lomyrin -> RE: War in China (7/4/2009 4:15:26 AM)

Finally in impulse 5 Japan gets fine weather everywhere and can move to attack.

Groundstirkes in Si-An still failed and in ChangSha as well.

Japan attacks and kills the Communist Warlord northwest of Si-An and gets another hex to attack the city from. one Japanese unit was lost and 2 more disrupted.

Japan also attacks and takes ChangSha suffering only a few disrupted units.

[image]local://upfiles/19136/C26182F913824BB59679DC17F16CB14A.jpg[/image]



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