Problem with turn order (Full Version)

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Jimmer -> Problem with turn order (7/21/2009 6:57:42 PM)

In the game I just joined, Russia has gone last in the turn order for land movement both times it has come up. The players who came before me said this has been happening for a while, and not consistently. Anyhow, playing Turkey, this has caused me some concern, since Russia shouldn't be able to go later than Turkey unless we get combined movement implemented, and then Turkey could move with France.

I would like to know two things:

First, has this problem been reported yet? Is there a quick fix?

Second, Marshall, do you know how this happens? If not, you may want to check and find out, for this is EXACTLY the feature I suggested as a way to partially emulate "combined movement": Change the turn order of a nation.



Marshall Ellis -> RE: Problem with turn order (7/22/2009 1:06:27 PM)

I heard about this in the past but have yet to see this. At least as far as I can remember??? I will scan Mantis to see...



NeverMan -> RE: Problem with turn order (7/22/2009 1:59:05 PM)

We've posted this before, pretty sure you've seen it. It's the same game.



Jimmer -> RE: Problem with turn order (7/22/2009 8:25:25 PM)

Mantis number?



Marshall Ellis -> RE: Problem with turn order (7/22/2009 11:26:33 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: NeverMan

We've posted this before, pretty sure you've seen it. It's the same game.


Not debating that I saw the game but there was no problem with what I loaded if I remember correctly??? I have slept since then so I could be wrong???



Jimmer -> RE: Problem with turn order (7/23/2009 4:00:55 PM)

By the way, Marshall, whether it's a bug or not is one issue. But, this points out that my idea of changing turn order as a way of emulating "Combined Movement" CAN work. People wouldn't be truly combined, but it would not be possible to go between them, which is the true value of combined movement.

Example: France and Turkey are at war with everybody else except Spain. Normally, the turn order would be:

Russia
Turkey
Prussia
Austria
Great Britain
Spain

(I may not have those right, but they're close and will serve as an example.)

France could go anywhere in there. Let's assume last for now. (In here, I'll call GB/Prussia/Austria/Russia "the allies".)

In the old game, typically both sides would fully-combine their movements in typical turns. I'll hit the end-cases later.
Anyhow, that would mean there really were only 3 parties moving: Spain, the Allies, France/Turkey, in that order.

Currently, this cannot be changed. However, for the sake of argument, let's say the order could be changed, but without actually combining:

---
Spain
---
Russia
Prussia
Austria
Great Britain
---
Turkey
France


The dashes (---) signify where France would be allowed to go, if my proposal works. France could go before Everybody, before the allies, or after the allies. Regardless of whether France chose before or after the allies, Turkey would shift with France, because there are really only four positions: Before everybody, before allies, or after allies/everybody.

Now, let's say Russia wants to go first, and so does not combine with the rest of the allies. In this case, the order would be:

---
Russia
---
Spain
---
Prussia, Austria, GB
---
Turkey
---

Since Turkey goes before everybody but Russia, Turkey combined with France in any of the slots EXCEPT the one just before Russia. And, in order for France to go BEFORE Russia, she would have to NOT combine with Turkey.

This is a very simple setup from the original game, and I believe it would work in this game as well. Two things are needed:

A)  Code the ability to have all major powers change their movement slot (not "at-will", but by the computer/game, as determined by the use/non-use of "combined movement".
B)  Code the game such that France cannot choose to go between the allies. The "Combined Movement declaration" would happen in the diplomacy phase, so the game would know which slots were excluded from France's list at the time France would make the choice. Instead of seeing the full list of 7 powers and having the ability to pick any of the seven slots, France would be limited to the slots that are not between the allies.

NOTE: France would have already made HER choice of combined movement, but not of turn order. So, some possibilities might be excluded (the "before Russia" choice in the second example above, for instance).

Would it work?



pzgndr -> RE: Problem with turn order (7/24/2009 12:36:58 PM)

quote:

In the old game, typically both sides would fully-combine their movements in typical turns.


Yes but what really needs to be "combined" besides allied movement/combat versus a common enemy? That can be done with loaned units. Depending on the situation, who loans to who based on turn order can be very flexible; ie, C loans to A for proactive situations versus B or A loans to C for reactive situations. This can be changed each turn.

quote:

Since Turkey goes before everybody but Russia, Turkey combined with France in any of the slots EXCEPT the one just before Russia. And, in order for France to go BEFORE Russia, she would have to NOT combine with Turkey.


Where France and Turkey are allied, Turkey can loan units to France who could go first. But France would need to also be at war with Russia for these Turks to move/attack Russia under French control before Russia, if you want to get gamey with turn order. Is this the intent, to manipulate the turn order for gamey effect? Otherwise, in cases where two sides are all at war with each other, the loaned unit feature should suffice for combined movement/combat. This feature should be as flexible and seamless as possible. Any specific suggestions for improvement of the loaned unit feature?



Marshall Ellis -> RE: Problem with turn order (7/24/2009 3:11:44 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Jimmer

By the way, Marshall, whether it's a bug or not is one issue. But, this points out that my idea of changing turn order as a way of emulating "Combined Movement" CAN work. People wouldn't be truly combined, but it would not be possible to go between them, which is the true value of combined movement.

Example: France and Turkey are at war with everybody else except Spain. Normally, the turn order would be:

Russia
Turkey
Prussia
Austria
Great Britain
Spain

(I may not have those right, but they're close and will serve as an example.)

France could go anywhere in there. Let's assume last for now. (In here, I'll call GB/Prussia/Austria/Russia "the allies".)

In the old game, typically both sides would fully-combine their movements in typical turns. I'll hit the end-cases later.
Anyhow, that would mean there really were only 3 parties moving: Spain, the Allies, France/Turkey, in that order.

Currently, this cannot be changed. However, for the sake of argument, let's say the order could be changed, but without actually combining:

---
Spain
---
Russia
Prussia
Austria
Great Britain
---
Turkey
France


The dashes (---) signify where France would be allowed to go, if my proposal works. France could go before Everybody, before the allies, or after the allies. Regardless of whether France chose before or after the allies, Turkey would shift with France, because there are really only four positions: Before everybody, before allies, or after allies/everybody.

Now, let's say Russia wants to go first, and so does not combine with the rest of the allies. In this case, the order would be:

---
Russia
---
Spain
---
Prussia, Austria, GB
---
Turkey
---

Since Turkey goes before everybody but Russia, Turkey combined with France in any of the slots EXCEPT the one just before Russia. And, in order for France to go BEFORE Russia, she would have to NOT combine with Turkey.

This is a very simple setup from the original game, and I believe it would work in this game as well. Two things are needed:

A)  Code the ability to have all major powers change their movement slot (not "at-will", but by the computer/game, as determined by the use/non-use of "combined movement".
B)  Code the game such that France cannot choose to go between the allies. The "Combined Movement declaration" would happen in the diplomacy phase, so the game would know which slots were excluded from France's list at the time France would make the choice. Instead of seeing the full list of 7 powers and having the ability to pick any of the seven slots, France would be limited to the slots that are not between the allies.

NOTE: France would have already made HER choice of combined movement, but not of turn order. So, some possibilities might be excluded (the "before Russia" choice in the second example above, for instance).

Would it work?


We thought of emulating combined move through something of this type BUT it lacked the combined combat (Pr and Au attacking together as one force) which is key. Combined movement without combined combat is pretty useless IMO.




Jimmer -> RE: Problem with turn order (7/24/2009 4:38:45 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Marshall Ellis
We thought of emulating combined move through something of this type BUT it lacked the combined combat (Pr and Au attacking together as one force) which is key. Combined movement without combined combat is pretty useless IMO.

You've said that before, but I don't think it's correct. The biggest value to the old combined movement was that the enemy couldn't split the forces.

Further, you already have an effective way to combine combat: Loaned corps. The problem with loaned corps is that there are still two or more armies in the field (in different locations, that is). France can go between them, preventing coordinated SETUPS to battle.

Let's start with an example. It's near the beginning of game somewhere, France just went to war with Austria and Prussia. Nobody else besides GB is involved.

Typically, a paranoid Prussia will have her army scattered in the eastern areas of Prussia, to keep France from reaching them and picking off cripples. Even the entire Prussian army at the beginning of the game cannot stand up to Napoleon's forces alone, for Prussia has no leaders.

Austria may have had her army more forward and in stacks of a few corps under Charles and even Mack.

Bottom line: The two armies are separated geographically.

Now, in the old game, they could move their forces together and meet up in the middle somewhere. But, in EiANW, they can only move towards each other ONE ARMY AT A TIME. I forget who goes first, but let's say it is Prussia. She moves her army towards Austria.

But, France, knowing this is coming, has chosen to go BETWEEN the allies. Thus, the two armies are separated still, and France can pick smaller targets to wipe out, rather than having to fend off the entire combined army.

To implement my idea, there are two pieces:

1) Allow ordering changes for all powers, not just France (but not a CHOICE of order position -- the game would decide), and
2) Prevent France (or any other power) from going between "combined" allies.

So, now, in this hypothetical new game, Prussia gets to move her scattered forces into a pile near Austria, and then Austria moves her army on top of the Prussians. France cannot go between them, because they are "combined". They're not really combined, but in effect they are.

Now, to make it become a full emulation of combined movement, one of the two nations would now (now that the forces are stacked together) loan some of his corps to the other nation.

The loaning COULD have occurred before the turn the armies moved together, but that could prove prohibitively expensive for the power that receives the extra corps. Let's say Prussia loaned her entire army to Austria this turn. But, remember, they are all still scattered in Prussia. Unless the two nations have set this up VERY carefully, Austria is going to have to pay for the entire stack at longer range. Or, the stack would be limited in its available range of movement to those spaces where Austria can pay at close range (i.e. inside Austria itself). Both of these options hinder an army's effectiveness.

The two things are pretty simple to make this work, and it would go an awfully long way towards true combined movement. The cost would be marginal (I'm guessing), but the benefit would be great. Combined with "loaned corps", this comes awfully close to being fully "combined". Still not perfect, but a great deal closer (close enough, IMO, that it would appease most die-hard "EIA or bust" fans).



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