Kung Fu Boise strikes again...

Kung Fu Boise strikes again... (Full Version)

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Iridium -> Kung Fu Boise strikes again... (7/29/2009 10:50:03 PM)
I ran a desron to Davao to sink some merchants I scouted, apparently Boise was lurking around as well. Riddle me this: IJN while crossing the T, in 35% moon conditions, possessing far more units etc and get handily beaten by one ship? Now, many will say that the Boise is a fine ship with 15 guns that rapidly fire, this much is true. I just got the impression that AE hasn't been able to address the "Kung Fu" effect. This will no doubt require more testing... Multiple torpedo firings did occur, all massive missfests at 1k or 2k range. Oh and... you go Boise![:D] quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Night Time Surface Combat, near Davao at 79,91, Range 1,000 Yards Japanese Ships CL Nagara, Shell hits 16, heavy fires, heavy damage DD Yukikaze, Shell hits 6, heavy fires, heavy damage DD Tokitsukaze DD Yamakaze DD Kawakaze DD Umikaze DD Suzukaze DD Shiokaze Allied Ships CL Boise, Shell hits 1 Reduced sighting due to 35% moonlight Maximum visibility in Partly Cloudy Conditions and 35% moonlight: 8,000 yards Range closes to 2,000 yards... Range closes to 1,000 yards... Naoi, Toshio crosses the 'T' CL Boise engages CL Nagara at 1,000 yards DD Yukikaze engages CL Boise at 1,000 yards Range increases to 2,000 yards CL Boise engages DD Yukikaze at 2,000 yards CL Boise engages DD Suzukaze at 2,000 yards DD Yamakaze engages CL Boise at 2,000 yards Range increases to 5,000 yards CL Boise engages CL Nagara at 5,000 yards Range increases to 9,000 yards CL Boise engages CL Nagara at 9,000 yards Range increases to 10,000 yards CL Boise engages CL Nagara at 10,000 yards CL Boise engages DD Suzukaze at 10,000 yards DD Tokitsukaze engages CL Boise at 10,000 yards Range increases to 12,000 yards CL Nagara engages CL Boise at 12,000 yards DD Yukikaze engages CL Boise at 12,000 yards Range closes to 10,000 yards CL Nagara engages CL Boise at 10,000 yards Range closes to 7,000 yards CL Boise engages CL Nagara at 7,000 yards Range increases to 9,000 yards CL Nagara engages CL Boise at 9,000 yards Range increases to 11,000 yards CL Nagara engages CL Boise at 11,000 yards DD Yamakaze engages CL Boise at 11,000 yards Moran, E. orders Allied TF to disengage Range closes to 9,000 yards CL Nagara engages CL Boise at 9,000 yards Task forces break off... -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Night Time Surface Combat, near Davao at 79,91, Range 1,000 Yards Japanese Ships CL Nagara, Shell hits 4, heavy fires, heavy damage DD Yukikaze, heavy fires, heavy damage DD Suzukaze DD Shiokaze Allied Ships CL Boise Reduced sighting due to 35% moonlight Maximum visibility in Partly Cloudy Conditions and 35% moonlight: 3,000 yards Range closes to 1,000 yards... Moran, E. crosses the 'T' CL Boise engages CL Nagara at 1,000 yards Range increases to 2,000 yards CL Nagara engages CL Boise at 2,000 yards Range increases to 7,000 yards CL Nagara engages CL Boise at 7,000 yards Task forces break off... --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

AttuWatcher -> RE: Kung Fu Boise strikes again... (7/29/2009 10:53:31 PM)
Don't mess with Idaho!

Nomad -> RE: Kung Fu Boise strikes again... (7/29/2009 10:56:30 PM)
Did Boise make a dreaded spud attack? [:D]

denisonh -> RE: Kung Fu Boise strikes again... (7/29/2009 11:00:17 PM)
Kinda what the Boise was designed/built to do..... Bring a real cruiser next time with bigger guns.

Iridium -> RE: Kung Fu Boise strikes again... (7/29/2009 11:03:01 PM)
Hmm... Boise has an experience rating of Day/Night 52/39. My desron consisted of ratings around 66-75/61-68 in Day/Night. I hope the reason Boise kills ships simply isn't because of it's ROF... You can waste lots of ammo and still not hit a darn thing.

Rob Brennan UK -> RE: Kung Fu Boise strikes again... (7/29/2009 11:08:57 PM)
Old Boise would have sunk every DD too. IIRC AE team stated that multi target accuracy had been better modelled, and this seems true as only 2 japanese ships were taken under effective fire. just my 2c

denisonh -> RE: Kung Fu Boise strikes again... (7/29/2009 11:10:34 PM)
I am sure there are more factors than that impacting the outcome. Additionaly, it is one example. There is a fair amount of uncertainty built in to the comabt model, so one instance does not represent the "expected outcome". IIRC the Boise was designed with adequate armor and armament to deal with IJN DDs and CLs. It also was fast for a pre war cruiser. But 8" guns would open her up.

NightFlyer -> RE: Kung Fu Boise strikes again... (7/29/2009 11:14:04 PM)
Didn't these cruisers have surface radar also, could explain the accurate targeting. But still, if she got hit by one Long Lance torpedo it would have been adios amigo. Just like in real life, strange stuff happens in combat.

Iridium -> RE: Kung Fu Boise strikes again... (7/29/2009 11:14:53 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Rob Brennan UK Old Boise would have sunk every DD too. IIRC AE team stated that multi target accuracy had been better modelled, and this seems true as only 2 japanese ships were taken under effective fire. just my 2c Indeed, other ships came under fire but Boise missed them. I guess the IJN just rolled snake eyes when it came to their torpedo fire this round.

Fishbed -> RE: Kung Fu Boise strikes again... (7/29/2009 11:19:34 PM)
Actually, was someone ever able to explain the sheer amount of damage this very ship - not any other, just this one - was able to do in the first weeks of the war? Does she have a super-captain or something, or is it just the little easter egg our computers like to pop up whenever they want to remember us about their might? [&o]

Shark7 -> RE: Kung Fu Boise strikes again... (7/29/2009 11:20:37 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: denisonh Kinda what the Boise was designed/built to do..... Bring a real cruiser next time with bigger guns. Gotta agree here. Nagara is not a real light cruiser, its a destroyer leader. It's guns are completely ineffective against a well protected ship like Boise. And taking chances on the Type 93s getting the job done is kinda like playing the slots at Vegas...the odds are in favor of the house. On a side note, the Japanese ships should have at least registered more hits, given the number of platforms involved. They would not have done a lot of damage, but should have gotten hits.

Charbroiled -> RE: Kung Fu Boise strikes again... (7/29/2009 11:21:09 PM)
Hmmmm, the Photon torpedo device must have been carried over from stock.

Iridium -> RE: Kung Fu Boise strikes again... (7/29/2009 11:24:31 PM)
Ran the turn again to see different results. Boise is a tough customer but can be beaten. Now if only I could determine what the average encounter with her would be. As a side note, an encounter with a merchie fleet and 2 DDs from Hong Kong met up with Chokai and Sagiri heading for their parent task force. First time I ran the turn it was a complete massacre for the allies, 2nd time around Chokai got nailed with a torp and Sagiri was thrashed with many rounds of gun fire. If I was a suspicious person, I'd say the game seems much more inclined towards randomness. quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Night Time Surface Combat, near Dadjangas at 79,93, Range 1,000 Yards Allied aircraft no flights Allied aircraft losses No Allied losses Japanese Ships CL Nagara DD Yukikaze DD Tokitsukaze DD Yamakaze DD Kawakaze DD Umikaze DD Suzukaze DD Shiokaze, Shell hits 13, and is sunk Allied Ships CL Boise, Shell hits 4, Torpedo hits 4, and is sunk Reduced sighting due to 35% moonlight Maximum visibility in Partly Cloudy Conditions and 35% moonlight: 10,000 yards Range closes to 1,000 yards... Naoi, Toshio crosses the 'T' DD Shiokaze engages CL Boise at 1,000 yards CL Boise engages DD Umikaze at 1,000 yards Moran, E. orders Allied TF to disengage Range increases to 2,000 yards CL Nagara engages CL Boise at 2,000 yards DD Shiokaze sunk by CL Boise at 2,000 yards CL Boise sunk by DD Suzukaze at 2,000 yards Combat ends with last Allied ship sunk... --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

denisonh -> RE: Kung Fu Boise strikes again... (7/29/2009 11:28:08 PM)
Combat is chaos, so there should be a wide range of outcomes. Good "combat modelling" is difficult, but aleways has to incorporate a large variability due to the vagaries of modern combat. People think of it too much like chess. It most certainly isn't. quote: ORIGINAL: Iridium Ran the turn again to see different results. Boise is a tough customer but can be beaten. Now if only I could determine what the average encounter with her would be. As a side note, an encounter with a merchie fleet and 2 DDs from Hong Kong met up with Chokai and Sagiri heading for their parent task force. First time I ran the turn it was a complete massacre for the allies, 2nd time around Chokai got nailed with a torp and Sagiri was thrashed with many rounds of gun fire. If I was a suspicious person, I'd say the game seems much more inclined towards randomness. quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Night Time Surface Combat, near Dadjangas at 79,93, Range 1,000 Yards Allied aircraft no flights Allied aircraft losses No Allied losses Japanese Ships CL Nagara DD Yukikaze DD Tokitsukaze DD Yamakaze DD Kawakaze DD Umikaze DD Suzukaze DD Shiokaze, Shell hits 13, and is sunk Allied Ships CL Boise, Shell hits 4, Torpedo hits 4, and is sunk Reduced sighting due to 35% moonlight Maximum visibility in Partly Cloudy Conditions and 35% moonlight: 10,000 yards Range closes to 1,000 yards... Naoi, Toshio crosses the 'T' DD Shiokaze engages CL Boise at 1,000 yards CL Boise engages DD Umikaze at 1,000 yards Moran, E. orders Allied TF to disengage Range increases to 2,000 yards CL Nagara engages CL Boise at 2,000 yards DD Shiokaze sunk by CL Boise at 2,000 yards CL Boise sunk by DD Suzukaze at 2,000 yards Combat ends with last Allied ship sunk... --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Iridium -> RE: Kung Fu Boise strikes again... (7/29/2009 11:30:58 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: denisonh Combat is chaos, so there should be a wide range of outcomes. Good "combat modelling" is difficult, but aleways has to incorporate a large variability due to the vagaries of modern combat. People think of it too much like chess. It most certainly isn't. Very true, combat is not as neat and simple as most people would like to think it is. Complete randomness does have a place in it. Anyhow, AE has been nothing but great since I've starting running turns. Even if all my Desrons are ambushed by Boise and her sister ships all the time. [:D]

pad152 -> RE: Kung Fu Boise strikes again... (7/29/2009 11:41:10 PM)
I have one DD that while escaping ran into a Japanes invasion TF and sank it (1 Allied DD vs. Japanese 1 APD, 1PB, 1 AM, 2 AK, 2 AKL). I was suprised to see each Japanese ship sink after just two gun hits. No hits on the allied DD.

Cuttlefish -> RE: Kung Fu Boise strikes again... (7/30/2009 12:28:04 AM)
Here's a contrast for you. I had no sooner read this thread when the following occured in my test game vs. the AI. It is very similar to the OPs combat except that it occured in daylight and at considerably longer range. None of the hits on either side penetrated. quote: Day Time Surface Combat, near Donggala at 69,96, Range 17,000 Yards Japanese Ships CL Natori, Shell hits 3 DD Satsuki DD Minazuki DD Fumizuki DD Nagatsuki DD Harukaze DD Hatakaze Allied Ships CL Boise, Shell hits 4 Maximum visibility in Clear Conditions: 30,000 yards CONTACT: Japanese lookouts spot Allied task force at 23,000 yards CONTACT: Allied lookouts spot Japanese task force at 23,000 yards Range closes to 17,000 yards... CL Natori engages CL Boise at 17,000 yards Range closes to 13,000 yards CL Natori engages CL Boise at 13,000 yards CL Boise engages DD Harukaze at 13,000 yards Range closes to 12,000 yards CL Natori engages CL Boise at 12,000 yards CL Boise engages DD Nagatsuki at 12,000 yards DD Minazuki engages CL Boise at 12,000 yards Range closes to 8,000 yards CL Natori engages CL Boise at 8,000 yards CL Boise engages DD Nagatsuki at 8,000 yards Range increases to 12,000 yards CL Boise engages CL Natori at 12,000 yards CL Boise engages DD Harukaze at 12,000 yards CL Boise engages DD Nagatsuki at 12,000 yards Range increases to 17,000 yards CL Boise engages CL Natori at 17,000 yards CL Boise engages DD Hatakaze at 17,000 yards CL Boise engages DD Harukaze at 17,000 yards CL Boise engages DD Minazuki at 17,000 yards DD Satsuki engages CL Boise at 17,000 yards Range increases to 19,000 yards CL Boise engages CL Natori at 19,000 yards CL Boise engages DD Hatakaze at 19,000 yards DD Fumizuki engages CL Boise at 19,000 yards Range increases to 21,000 yards CL Boise engages CL Natori at 21,000 yards Range increases to 23,000 yards CL Boise engages CL Natori at 23,000 yards Range increases to 26,000 yards CL Natori engages CL Boise at 26,000 yards CL Boise engages DD Minazuki at 26,000 yards Task forces break off...

Yamato hugger -> RE: Kung Fu Boise strikes again... (7/30/2009 12:29:24 AM)
Yes, that was one thing I pointed out time and again was that allied naval will shoot and shoot and shoot and rarely get hit. The Jap "night fighting" advantage doesnt seem to exist. I never once went into anything near and even a fight and came out with anywhere near even results. And wait until you run into them invincible PTs.

Dili -> RE: Kung Fu Boise strikes again... (7/30/2009 12:40:23 AM)
quote: Gotta agree here. Nagara is not a real light cruiser, its a destroyer leader. It's guns are completely ineffective against a well protected ship like Boise. At that distance even DD guns penetrate Boise.

Erik Rutins -> RE: Kung Fu Boise strikes again... (7/30/2009 12:41:21 AM)
Nice to see a range of results, that's as it should be.

Big B -> RE: Kung Fu Boise strikes again... (7/30/2009 1:03:09 AM)
Not really. The Japanese 12.7cm/50 3rd Year Type gun (the Japanese Destroyer gun 5" gun) only fired HE and Incendiary Shrapnel rounds. They would not be able to penetrate the 127mm-165mm armor plate that a Brooklyn class cruiser carried over the vitals - even at point blank range. HE and IS rounds are soft nosed and not made to penetrate heavy armor plate ... they could get through the thin skinned areas though and start fires. B quote: ORIGINAL: Dili quote: Gotta agree here. Nagara is not a real light cruiser, its a destroyer leader. It's guns are completely ineffective against a well protected ship like Boise. At that distance even DD guns penetrate Boise.

Shark7 -> RE: Kung Fu Boise strikes again... (7/30/2009 5:54:43 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Big B Not really. The Japanese 12.7cm/50 3rd Year Type gun (the Japanese Destroyer gun 5" gun) only fired HE and Incendiary Shrapnel rounds. They would not be able to penetrate the 127mm-165mm armor plate that a Brooklyn class cruiser carried over the vitals - even at point blank range. HE and IS rounds are soft nosed and not made to penetrate heavy armor plate ... they could get through the thin skinned areas though and start fires. B quote: ORIGINAL: Dili quote: Gotta agree here. Nagara is not a real light cruiser, its a destroyer leader. It's guns are completely ineffective against a well protected ship like Boise. At that distance even DD guns penetrate Boise. Those type of shells are also often an 'airburst' type weapon designed to take out exposed 'vitals' rather than do structural damage. In a modern engagement the HE and IS (especially) would take out crewmen, radars, searchlights, unshielded guns, torpedo tubes, DC racks etc. If you get lucky, they touch off a torpedo or DC and do secondary explosion damage. Same principle in WWII.

Scott_USN -> RE: Kung Fu Boise strikes again... (7/30/2009 6:09:30 AM)
PT's do seem to be a bit hard...

Akos Gergely -> RE: Kung Fu Boise strikes again... (7/30/2009 7:19:05 AM)
Well I'm playing Guadalcanal against the AI and in that scenario Boise did not make a big impression so far, in fact most of the night surface engagements were pretty unclimatic with mostly the japs scoring hits (due to higher night exp). So it's pretty random then I would say.

EUBanana -> RE: Kung Fu Boise strikes again... (7/30/2009 11:33:48 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Yamato hugger And wait until you run into them invincible PTs. Yeah, PTs seem even better in AE. They are frickin' indestructible. DDs just can't hit them. In my game against the AI I've not lost one in the PI despite there being a PT raid every third turn. They've not scored many hits but it seems difficult to weed them out. Admittedly this is against the AI. [:-]

John Lansford -> RE: Kung Fu Boise strikes again... (7/30/2009 11:51:36 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: pad152 I have one DD that while escaping ran into a Japanes invasion TF and sank it (1 Allied DD vs. Japanese 1 APD, 1PB, 1 AM, 2 AK, 2 AKL). I was suprised to see each Japanese ship sink after just two gun hits. No hits on the allied DD. The survivor of the three Hong Kong DD's that I tried to disrupt one of the PI landings with ran into a transport TF in the open ocean in daytime. It was a close in fight; somehow the DD (Scout) got to 4000 yards and less to this TF before anyone figured out she was an enemy. Scout shot up the whole TF, sank the biggest ship with a torpedo, but the TF wasn't going down quietly and hit her repeatedly with 15cm and 8.8cm gunfire. Scout survived but the whole TF was on fire and one ship sank. I also had a TF of MTB's intercept another transport TF in daytime. They torpedoed three transports and then disengaged with no hits on them either. Right now Louisville is the ship with the biggest kill score in my game. She diverted to attack the invasion TF at Tarawa and sank the whole group, which apparently was still half full of Japanese troops and support personnel. The AAR said over 1200 troops were casualties from the sunk ships.

EUBanana -> RE: Kung Fu Boise strikes again... (7/30/2009 11:57:43 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: John Lansford The survivor of the three Hong Kong DD's that I tried to disrupt one of the PI landings with ran into a transport TF in the open ocean in daytime. It was a close in fight; somehow the DD (Scout) got to 4000 yards and less to this TF before anyone figured out she was an enemy. Scout shot up the whole TF, sank the biggest ship with a torpedo, but the TF wasn't going down quietly and hit her repeatedly with 15cm and 8.8cm gunfire. Scout survived but the whole TF was on fire and one ship sank. I've never had much luck with my three HK DDs. They are very old DDs, it is true... My ultimate surface action so far was 3 heavy cruisers vs That Jap Force That Lands at Wake, which is fairly big but only has a CL leading it. They absolutely cleaned its clock, sank every ship, with their entire troop cargo.

Zacktar -> RE: Kung Fu Boise strikes again... (7/30/2009 12:14:32 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: John Lansford The survivor of the three Hong Kong DD's that I tried to disrupt one of the PI landings with ran into a transport TF in the open ocean in daytime. It was a close in fight; somehow the DD (Scout) got to 4000 yards and less to this TF before anyone figured out she was an enemy. Scout shot up the whole TF, sank the biggest ship with a torpedo, but the TF wasn't going down quietly and hit her repeatedly with 15cm and 8.8cm gunfire. Scout survived but the whole TF was on fire and one ship sank. I had something like this happen in my AI game -- the three RN DD's didn't so much retreat from Hong Kong as they attacked towards the DEI. They savaged an invasion TF, laughed off a few air raids, sank a sub and are now sitting at anchor at Singapore, plotting their next exploits. I think they're commanded by reincarnations of Jack Aubrey, Horatio Hornblower and Lord Cochrane! [:D]

John Lansford -> RE: Kung Fu Boise strikes again... (7/30/2009 12:26:37 PM)
Those three Hong Kong DD's shot up an invasion force, but when Jintsu and her escorts showed up they suffered badly. Jintsu sank one with gunfire, then a LL torpedo hit the other one. Scout got lost in the fight apparently and withdrew, and that's when she found the incoming transport TF. BTW, has anyone seen the "sub disengages due to low deck gun ammo" message yet? I had one of my fleet subs armed with a 3" gun fire off the whole alotment of ammo into a transport (why not, the torpedoes weren't working) and then the skipper must have given up in disgust.

EUBanana -> RE: Kung Fu Boise strikes again... (7/30/2009 12:30:44 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: John Lansford BTW, has anyone seen the "sub disengages due to low deck gun ammo" message yet?� Yeah, my Dutch subs off Malaya have had that a couple of times. They seem to be commanded by really angry captains, they used every torpedo and every shell ripping into the Japs. As I only had three subs up there on station and it was rich pickings, I left to them their own devices until they were totally out. [:D] But my favourite one is - I swear I saw a Buffalo collide with a Betty. I have the delay on something like 0.3 seconds so the messages just whip by, but either my eyes deceive me or I saw something about a mid air collision. [:D]

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