4E bombers... (Full Version)

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hmota -> 4E bombers... (8/1/2009 5:40:51 PM)

after more than month of playing Aleutian scenario my pilots flying zeroes canīt shoot down single enemyE bomber...even if the ratio was 20 zeroes against 4 unescorted liberators...similar situation is with Zeroes agaist venturas or mitchells...

[image]local://upfiles/25047/79007C7F82B442E0AFA9A47D46C62C01.jpg[/image]




herwin -> RE: 4E bombers... (8/1/2009 6:07:28 PM)

The Japanese got fed up, too, and designed some interceptors.




kfmiller41 -> RE: 4E bombers... (8/1/2009 7:21:46 PM)

Yeh, I have been reading Downfall - the end of the imperial Japanese empire and it gives numerous examples of bombing raids which flew right thru enemy cap without losing a plane but then losing b-29s to cap over the tagrget. Very depressing if your Japan[:D]




Shark7 -> RE: 4E bombers... (8/1/2009 7:33:35 PM)

4Es are tough to begin wtih. Most of them can fly home on 2 engines, and some only need 1. Germany finally adopted a tactic of attacking them head on to kill the pilots which was far more efficient than trying to destroy the plane.

Bottom line is, if Japan had a similar design in production (G5N, G8N) they would have likely been effective as well.

4 engines vs 2 makes a hugh difference in wether a plane survives the bombing raid or not.




bigbaba -> RE: 4E bombers... (8/1/2009 8:09:41 PM)

i remember an episode from history chan. "dogfights" about a single B-17 flying recon at buka isl. in soutn pacific. the bomber was intercepted by 17!! japanese zero and oscars and made it back home after shooting down at least 2 japanese fighters.

it took the germans until late 1943 to shoot down the 4E in a huge number with their famous and deadly 30mm MK-108. so its no surprise that the japanese simply can not match the heavies in early 1942 with their "paper flyers".

the later japanese fighters with 20mm and armor protection however should do much better against the heavies.




Hard Sarge -> RE: 4E bombers... (8/1/2009 8:15:06 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: bigbaba

i remember an episode from history chan. "dogfights" about a single B-17 flying recon at buka isl. in soutn pacific. the bomber was intercepted by 17!! japanese zero and oscars and made it back home after shooting down at least 2 japanese fighters.

it took the germans until late 1943 to shoot down the 4E in a huge number with their famous and deadly 30mm MK-108. so its no surprise that the japanese simply can not match the heavies in early 1942 with their "paper flyers".

the later japanese fighters with 20mm and armor protection however should do much better against the heavies.


I don't have the link anymore (computer crashed) but you should read the real story of that crew, it is even more unbelieveable then the one on TV, that wasn't the only mission that crew flew like that (well, that was the worse one, but others were pretty wild also)





hmota -> RE: 4E bombers... (8/1/2009 9:14:33 PM)

I made some test with tojos and tonys equiped with cannons...the results is the same :) none 4E going down :)

...and finally Ki-84b with 4x20mm cannons...the same results...
all test were made on aleutian scenario...




Barb -> RE: 4E bombers... (8/1/2009 9:49:28 PM)

It was B-17E Old 666 serial numbers 12666 and this mission occured on June 16 1943 or June 17th [:)]




Grollub -> RE: 4E bombers... (8/1/2009 10:11:13 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Hard Sarge


quote:

ORIGINAL: bigbaba

i remember an episode from history chan. "dogfights" about a single B-17 flying recon at buka isl. in soutn pacific. the bomber was intercepted by 17!! japanese zero and oscars and made it back home after shooting down at least 2 japanese fighters.

it took the germans until late 1943 to shoot down the 4E in a huge number with their famous and deadly 30mm MK-108. so its no surprise that the japanese simply can not match the heavies in early 1942 with their "paper flyers".

the later japanese fighters with 20mm and armor protection however should do much better against the heavies.


I don't have the link anymore (computer crashed) but you should read the real story of that crew, it is even more unbelieveable then the one on TV, that wasn't the only mission that crew flew like that (well, that was the worse one, but others were pretty wild also)


From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_666

The Mapping Mission
On June 16 1943 a request went out for a special mission, a single ship unescorted mapping mission over hostile territory. Capt. Zeamer and crew eagerly volunteered.

Taking off at 4 A.M. to make use of darkness to cover at least part of the mission 'Old 666' and crew headed for Bougainville, where they were instructed to make a reconnaissance of the Japanese airfield there to determine logistics and enemy strength.

The flight would require flying over 600 miles of open sea to even reach the target. By 7:40 AM with only 22 minutes of flight-time remaining to complete his mission, Old 666 was intercepted by no less than 17 Japanese fighters (15 A6M Zeros & 2 Ki-46 Dinahs) of the 251st Kokutai Squadron, commanded by Chief Flight Petty Officer Yoshio Ooki.[2]

After making a pass at the heavily armed tail the fighters came in against the normally lightly armed nose only to find that this specific bomber possessed much heavier forward firepower, resulting in two A6M Zeros being shot down. However, 20mm cannon shells from a third Zero smashed into the cockpit and nose wounding both Zeamer and Sarnoski before being shot down itself. Sarnoski crawled out of the nose to seek first aid attention but when a Ki-46 Dinah led a second wave of fighters to attack nose on he returned to his guns, shot it down and then shortly thereafter collapsed.[1]

The second wave knocked out the oxygen system and forced the bomber to dive from 25,000 ft to 10,000 ft, where the crew could breathe normally, in just a matter of seconds.

By 8:45 AM the American bomber was over open seas and the enemy fighters, low on ammunition and fuel, were forced to turn back to Bougainville, most of the crew had been wounded in varying degrees and the aircraft was shot full of holes. It was during the return flight that Zeamer lost consciousness and Sarnoski, still manning his guns, died.

Upon landing the co-pilot told the ground crews, "Get the pilot last. He's dead!" He was not, and Zeamer lived to receive the Medal of Honor, but Sarnoski's Medal of Honor was awarded posthumously. In one of the most decorated flights in history, the rest of the entire crew received Distinguished Service Crosses.[3] This mission was featured on the episode "Long Odds" on the History Channel show Dogfights.




stuman -> RE: 4E bombers... (8/1/2009 10:19:04 PM)

Hell of a story. Bunch of brave guys.




jwilkerson -> RE: 4E bombers... (8/1/2009 10:23:42 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: hmota

I made some test with tojos and tonys equiped with cannons...the results is the same :) none 4E going down :)



I shoot down the occasional 4EB with almost anything - even a Rufe - though I mostly get "fighter can't catch bomber" messages ... same with Claudes. They can be shot down - but not in huge numbers. You will however, damage them, and if they get enough damage, it can take a loooong time for them to get repaired - the aircraft repair process is totally difference in AE. So Allied players flying lots of unescorted 4EB raids against fighter opposition, may not see lots of their 4EB getting shot down, but they will see the number of offline aircraft build up.





Historiker -> RE: 4E bombers... (8/1/2009 10:25:40 PM)

quote:

. Germany finally adopted a tactic of attacking them head on to kill the pilots which was far more efficient than trying to destroy the plane.

This wasn't introduced to kill the pilots - which was a good side effect - but to avoid the defensive fire. Attacking from the front left just a few heartbeats for the countless cal. 0.50 MGs to kill the German fighter.
Using the Mk-108, there was no need to hit a pilot. Usually, 3 to 4 hits anywhere were enough to kill a 4e.




bigbaba -> RE: 4E bombers... (8/1/2009 10:26:33 PM)

thanks to sweden for the link. realy amazing story.






sval062 -> RE: 4E bombers... (8/1/2009 11:36:13 PM)


quote:

. Germany finally adopted a tactic of attacking them head on to kill the pilots which was far more efficient than trying to destroy the plane.


If I remember well, british pilots did the same thing during Battle of Britain. And they also targeted the formation leader in order to desorganize the formation/ bombing.

It was not fair play at all [:D]




Historiker -> RE: 4E bombers... (8/1/2009 11:44:07 PM)

quote:


It was not fair play at all

Its war! How can killing someone you don't even know, you don't have a quarrel with and who doesn't intend to enslave you ever be fair?




sval062 -> RE: 4E bombers... (8/1/2009 11:50:51 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Historiker

Its war! How can killing someone you don't even know, you don't have a quarrel with and who doesn't intend to enslave you ever be fair?


I was ironic Thorsten [;)]




bigbaba -> RE: 4E bombers... (8/1/2009 11:55:59 PM)

that remembers me when the british said useing the "88 FLAK" in north africa against tanks was unfair.[:D]




Historiker -> RE: 4E bombers... (8/2/2009 12:08:06 AM)

the crossbow was unchristianic and just to be used against moslems [;)]




88l71 -> RE: 4E bombers... (8/2/2009 12:29:42 AM)

Zero has 2 popguns and 2 20mm with lousy ammo capacity for the latter, so not surprising.




stuman -> RE: 4E bombers... (8/2/2009 3:50:03 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: bigbaba

that remembers me when the british said useing the "88 FLAK" in north africa against tanks was unfair.[:D]


Why was it that the allies never used one of their AA guns in a similar fashion ?




herwin -> RE: 4E bombers... (8/2/2009 8:19:40 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: stuman


quote:

ORIGINAL: bigbaba

that remembers me when the british said useing the "88 FLAK" in north africa against tanks was unfair.[:D]


Why was it that the allies never used one of their AA guns in a similar fashion ?


Doctrine.




herwin -> RE: 4E bombers... (8/2/2009 8:21:40 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: hmota

I made some test with tojos and tonys equiped with cannons...the results is the same :) none 4E going down :)

...and finally Ki-84b with 4x20mm cannons...the same results...
all test were made on aleutian scenario...


That should not be happening. The land-based IJN fighters (the 'J's) were also designed as interceptors. Try them.




88l71 -> RE: 4E bombers... (8/2/2009 8:28:26 AM)

Didn't they get the 90mm on the Pershing and M36 from the 90mm AA???




Historiker -> RE: 4E bombers... (8/2/2009 9:51:50 AM)

The 17 Pounder from the Sherman Firefly was a derivate of the 17 Pounder Flak as well, but to develope a tank gun from a AA gun isn't the same as using a AA gun for ground combat.




EUBanana -> RE: 4E bombers... (8/2/2009 10:25:24 AM)

As the Allies I've seen B17s get shot down, indeed they seem to me to be more vulnerable than they were in WITP.

I sent the Philippines B17 squadrons to Java and started bombing Kuching when the AI took it - small raids, 4 bombers apiece usually.  I soon found it simply didn't work.  1 B17 got shot down by the ~6 Zero CAP every time they flew, and B17s take aaaaages to get fixed, so having them all shot up in a raid simply wasn't profitable use of them - especially as they were on half loads flying from Java anyway.




ram_971 -> RE: 4E bombers... (8/3/2009 11:45:57 AM)

I am almost 4 months into the Guadalcanal campaign and the unescorted 4Es usually go through the CAP. Although many 4E have been shot down, the fighter losses are quite similar and now the Japanese fighter arm is completely depleted.

The 4Es are being also very effective against the AK ships. Sending a supply convoy to New Guinea requires a huge escort (including all my CVs and BBs) and even with this CAP and AA protection they always are able to hit many AKs.



[image]local://upfiles/27408/8B2BEACC75B349BE9BC332E074E020E3.jpg[/image]




John Lansford -> RE: 4E bombers... (8/3/2009 11:52:25 AM)

Your B-17's are doing a lot better than mine then; it's January 1 and my Philippine bombers have hit two cargo ships, total.  Btw, how do you move them to Java?  Mine are still listed as part of the restricted command and it costs a lot to switch them to something else.




EUBanana -> RE: 4E bombers... (8/3/2009 12:02:14 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: John Lansford

Your B-17's are doing a lot better than mine then; it's January 1 and my Philippine bombers have hit two cargo ships, total.  Btw, how do you move them to Java?  Mine are still listed as part of the restricted command and it costs a lot to switch them to something else.


The PP cost depends on how many there are, and when I moved them they were down to about six a/c.

I built them up a bit, with upgrades, but they still contributed nothing, I ended up sending them to Darwin.

One thing that doesn't help in the early war is the B-17 crew experience, which is awful at essentially everything. They need a couple of months training.

That said 2 months doing training missions really makes a big difference. The ABDA P-40 squadron reinforcements - I sent one in ill trained, it got cut to ribbons, and one trained in air-to-air, and even though their experience was very bad (40-50 for both) the difference was very marked.




bigbaba -> RE: 4E bombers... (8/3/2009 12:09:01 PM)

the repair time for the B-17 is much much longer then in WITP. i sent 25 B-17 out of australia to a ground bombing mission N of PM (an 18 hex range mission) and after the turn noone was shot down but 8 were damaged. each turn, only 2-3 damaged AC were rapaired and all that without a CAP and only caused by AA fire. i can imaine that with fighter resiatance more then half of the B-17 wouldnt be able to fly the next day. later in the game, against better japanese fighters, the out of action number of the bombers must be even higher after a hard mission.

i like the way the game handels 4E bombers. hard to kill, but also hard to bring back to service.




Shark7 -> RE: 4E bombers... (8/3/2009 5:33:48 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: bigbaba

the repair time for the B-17 is much much longer then in WITP. i sent 25 B-17 out of australia to a ground bombing mission N of PM (an 18 hex range mission) and after the turn noone was shot down but 8 were damaged. each turn, only 2-3 damaged AC were rapaired and all that without a CAP and only caused by AA fire. i can imaine that with fighter resiatance more then half of the B-17 wouldnt be able to fly the next day. later in the game, against better japanese fighters, the out of action number of the bombers must be even higher after a hard mission.

i like the way the game handels 4E bombers. hard to kill, but also hard to bring back to service.



The problem is that even with the long repair times, the paper airplanes the Japanese are trying to shoot them down with are lost forever, not just damaged.




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