RE: If you had to pick the biggest drawback of this game? (Full Version)

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obsidiandrag -> RE: If you had to pick the biggest drawback of this game? (8/6/2009 2:53:20 PM)

sorry, most of that last was for Neverman..



NeverMan -> RE: If you had to pick the biggest drawback of this game? (8/6/2009 4:34:08 PM)

THese are not complaints, they are a way to realize what people on the forum believe is the best way to improve the game.

More often than not Matrix has their own ideas that don't align with what the players actually want.



easterner -> RE: If you had to pick the biggest drawback of this game? (8/6/2009 4:52:28 PM)

PnzGr wrote an awful long missive on NM. Summary: PnzGr said he's a liberal.

As to the question it has a problem EiA is two games , multi-player and solitaire. Each has seperate issues.

Speed is a zero issue in solitaire mode. My one attempt at PBEM (2-player) was such a disaster I don't see it being repeated after exchanging 3 files the 4th wouldn't go, so PBEM clunkiness would be my vote but I have too little experience with it to so commit and never got to the time issue at all.

However in solitaire the issue is AI, it is too weak, it attacks when it should hold back, retreats from must wins, refuses to build troops in general and minors ever and fights to the last man instead of surrendering while ahead.

With the exception of Navy changes (I neither like nor dislike) I consider the EiH an upgrade and have NO interest in EiA Classic. That is an opinion, NM calls EiH stuff crap, that is an opinion too.



bresh -> RE: If you had to pick the biggest drawback of this game? (8/6/2009 5:28:56 PM)

OD.

When refering to a poll, please add a link.
As far as i remember the poll was a narrow(eg. only few things to vote on), so 50% might choose A over B, but maybe 51% would rather have seen C....

Im guessing this is the one you meant :
http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=1848517&mpage=1&key=poll?

Pbm streamlining was highest, i dont think i voted, since i thought it to narrow.(could be wrong).

Anyway pbm.streamlining has improved, players can choose to skip a phase (especially Pr/Au often auto skip all naval-phases), so you cant just say the other things had a higher priotity.


Editor. 18% (10)
AI improvment. 37% (20)
PBEM streamlining. 40% (22)
Tutorial. 3% (2)



Regards
Bresh

quote:

ORIGINAL: obsidiandragon

quote:

ORIGINAL: Dancing Bear

The last time a poll was done on this topic by Matrix. PBEM game speed was the top item, closely followed by improvements to the AI and trailling a distant third was the editor.


And somehow security, AI improvements and the editor managed to get done first.

---------------------------------------------------------------------

Sorry.. can't agree with this one..

As we have seen skipping phases came online before all of these and in my opinion should be one of the greatest advantages to speed up the game if all players are using it as eficiently as it can be.. (and I am not a fan of the changed build times but agree it would be another speed booster)

I think what alot of people are pointing out is that you are complaining about the same things for the same reasons and not acknowledging the improvements or modifications to that which you are complaining about .. The game has changed and come along way - the speed has been greatly enhanced - and in my opinion the only way to make battles BETTER and FASTER is through IP but then you have to have different player availability options and a whole nother realm of programming for it. Personally I have been thinking of trying to host a game on my pc with pc anywhere or vpn connections for the other players to checkin and take thier turn to see if it speeds things up... The loss is the security as everyone can see what you have going -- concessions for the speed but keeping the game dynamics and structure???

The main point I have is work with it to make it better instead of always looking at the bottom of the glass

To answer you question though that is the main thing I miss about the game from the ftf is the player interaction that you still do not have and wont without IP play where you can chat to eachother while someone else is moving etc.. That is what I would like to see...


no hard feelings..[:)]

OD




pzgndr -> RE: If you had to pick the biggest drawback of this game? (8/6/2009 6:05:47 PM)

quote:

PnzGr wrote an awful long missive on NM. Summary: PnzGr said he's a liberal.


Correction here. I posted a missive; I did not write it myself. There's a complaint letter generator for that sort of stuff. [:D] If a random word generator hits too close to home, oh well... [sm=innocent0009.gif]

quote:

The game has changed and come along way


To re-emphasize what OD said, the soon-to-be official v1.06 patch resolves a lot of the lingering pbem issues and playgroups should move forward with it.



Marshall Ellis -> RE: If you had to pick the biggest drawback of this game? (8/6/2009 8:59:53 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: NeverMan

THese are not complaints, they are a way to realize what people on the forum believe is the best way to improve the game.

More often than not Matrix has their own ideas that don't align with what the players actually want.


Oh! I misread then! Maybe you should have titled the thread differently then :-/ ??? but I'm cool with that.

Improvements?

Secure PBEM?. Working on it! Should see in 1.07
Streamlined PBEM? About the only thing I could feasible do would be simul diplomacy and Eco and this would be tough BUT not impossible. Again, skipping was added earlier and that was NOT easy :-0! This will be after 1.07
AI? You bet. Already MUCH better BUT still could use some more!
Classic Scenario? We're talking about it and I want to do it BUT we do not have a firm go ahead yet.

And for what I think is the biggest improvements ... quicker smaller patches! My commitment for 1.07!





obsidiandrag -> RE: If you had to pick the biggest drawback of this game? (8/6/2009 9:45:23 PM)

sorry, I was actually quoting Dancing Bears post from earlier in this thread and seperated mine with the dashes.. (haven't figured out how to box in the quote from someone elses post - haven't really tried.. - same with pictures..)

My point was that speed was addressed as soon or sooner than the others and may still be worked on, as the AI needs work still too..

and that security, AI improvements and the editor did not manage to get done first as all three of those also are not compleled and will receive more work I am sure before it is all said and done.

again sorry for the confusion..

OD



Jimmer -> RE: If you had to pick the biggest drawback of this game? (8/6/2009 10:06:35 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: obsidiandragon
(haven't figured out how to box in the quote from someone elses post - haven't really tried.. - same with pictures..)

What I do is bring up two reply-to dialog windows, each quoting one of the two posts. From the first one, I copy and paste everything into Notepad (or other text editor). Then, I go to the second one and paste in the parts of the quote that I want to keep (including the square bracketed stuff).



Thresh -> RE: If you had to pick the biggest drawback of this game? (8/7/2009 4:39:31 AM)

I swear Neverman, the way you talk sometimes I wonder if you couldn't have coded a better game with all the time you spend complaining about it...



NeverMan -> RE: If you had to pick the biggest drawback of this game? (8/7/2009 4:47:25 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Thresh

I swear Neverman, the way you talk sometimes I wonder if you couldn't have coded a better game with all the time you spend complaining about it...


To be honest, it's a high possibility!!

Someone else mentioned that there really should be two separate problems, single player and PBEM. I absolutely agree and I also agree that AI is the problem for single player.



Thresh -> RE: If you had to pick the biggest drawback of this game? (8/7/2009 4:48:22 AM)

I don't think the game is what anyone wants it to be, and to be honest I think the version being released soon were the initial release, it would have been better received by many of us, a still imperfect game but you can see the potential.  It still wouldn't be the game I want it to be, or the game Marshall wants it to be, but that's why many of us, except me lately (sorry Marshall), have been doing what we can when we can to help.

Todd



pzgndr -> RE: If you had to pick the biggest drawback of this game? (8/7/2009 1:56:39 PM)

quote:

I swear Neverman, the way you talk sometimes I wonder if you couldn't have coded a better game with all the time you spend complaining about it...


And actually get off his fourth-point-of-contact and DO SOMETHING?? Not likely. It's far easier to be a critic than a doer. [8|]

quote:

"It is not the critic who counts, not the one who points out how the strong man stumbled or how the doer of deeds might have done better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred with sweat and dust and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs and comes short again and again; who knows the great enthusiasms, the great devotions, and spends himself in a worthy cause; who, if he wins, knows the triumph of high achievement; and who, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who know neither victory or defeat." -- Teddy Roosevelt


I'll continue to support the individual developers of our niche wargame community. Guys like Marshall Ellis, Ron Dockal of Schwerpunkt, Hubert Cater of Fury Software, etc. These guys do not have staffs or development budgets or anything approaching what the Microsofts or Paradoxs have to work with. So I suppose the biggest "drawback" is the amount of time it takes to iterate between patches to fix and improve things. Where larger staffs could be expected to produce patches in weeks, it takes these guys months. So be it. Patience is called for. My hat's off to these guys. THANK YOU!! The alternative is we don't get guys like Marshall and Ron and Hubert and others to develop and maintain these niche games for us. All we would be left with are inane critics who produce nothing for us.



Marshall Ellis -> RE: If you had to pick the biggest drawback of this game? (8/7/2009 2:08:37 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Thresh

I don't think the game is what anyone wants it to be, and to be honest I think the version being released soon were the initial release, it would have been better received by many of us, a still imperfect game but you can see the potential.  It still wouldn't be the game I want it to be, or the game Marshall wants it to be, but that's why many of us, except me lately (sorry Marshall), have been doing what we can when we can to help.

Todd



Thresh:

I would agree with this. We were ready to release what we designed but we just didn't design what should have been released ... if that makes sense??? We saw this early though and have continued to strive to make this more true than it was. It's a game and I'm having a blast! I've not gotten any death threats (Not even from Neverman). Matrix has been VERY supportive and I will be around to make this thing better and better!

BTW: Don't apologize to me Thresh. You've helped enough in the past to deserve a small vacation :-)







Marshall Ellis -> RE: If you had to pick the biggest drawback of this game? (8/7/2009 2:14:54 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: NeverMan


quote:

ORIGINAL: Thresh

I swear Neverman, the way you talk sometimes I wonder if you couldn't have coded a better game with all the time you spend complaining about it...


To be honest, it's a high possibility!!

Someone else mentioned that there really should be two separate problems, single player and PBEM. I absolutely agree and I also agree that AI is the problem for single player.


LOL! Give me enough time and maybe I could have won the Viet Nam war!
Point being: It's a little late for that now ya think?

Seriously, there are always things I will be doing to PBEM and the AI. That's the life of a developer. Until Matrix tells me to stop ... I'm coding!








AresMars -> RE: If you had to pick the biggest drawback of this game? (8/7/2009 5:49:17 PM)

If you had to pick the biggest drawback of this game?

Some of the people who post in the forums.....



borner -> RE: If you had to pick the biggest drawback of this game? (8/9/2009 4:39:31 AM)

I am so very sorry I am getting into this 44 posts late. First, it is very sad that this went down to path to slam neverman from the start. Perhaps he and Pz should decide on pistols at 10 paces to settle things. Anyone slamming him play a game with him? I have, and am currently. He is a good player, and unlike many, does not abandon games at the first downturn.  His question is legitimate. What do people still think is the biggest shortcoming? Now, as a poster a few lines up commented. The current version should have been the first. I am sure many of us unpaid beta testers will agree. (note, there are still bugs, a Russian garrison in Turkey disappared between the land and eco phases in one I am in). Matrix (not Marshall) made a mistake a year ago. plain and simple. It is better, and each patch seems to cause one new issue but solve 2 or 3, so there is a light at the end of this tunnel. 

To answer the question, GAME SPEED. Is it possible to code the turns so that instead of loading 12 files to get to your turn, you can simply load the last and all previous information is loaded? Also, combining phases would help. The long mentioned "classic" version with the old map will/would be great.



NeverMan -> RE: If you had to pick the biggest drawback of this game? (8/9/2009 6:33:16 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: borner

I am so very sorry I am getting into this 44 posts late. First, it is very sad that this went down to path to slam neverman from the start. Perhaps he and Pz should decide on pistols at 10 paces to settle things. Anyone slamming him play a game with him? I have, and am currently. He is a good player, and unlike many, does not abandon games at the first downturn.  His question is legitimate. What do people still think is the biggest shortcoming? Now, as a poster a few lines up commented. The current version should have been the first. I am sure many of us unpaid beta testers will agree. (note, there are still bugs, a Russian garrison in Turkey disappared between the land and eco phases in one I am in). Matrix (not Marshall) made a mistake a year ago. plain and simple. It is better, and each patch seems to cause one new issue but solve 2 or 3, so there is a light at the end of this tunnel. 

To answer the question, GAME SPEED. Is it possible to code the turns so that instead of loading 12 files to get to your turn, you can simply load the last and all previous information is loaded? Also, combining phases would help. The long mentioned "classic" version with the old map will/would be great.


Two points about your post:

1. Yes, sadly pz has a little thing for me. If Matrix followed up on anything they say, such as posters who personally insult other posters or posters who derail threads, then pz would have stopped this nonsense a long time ago, sadly Matrix will only do as they preach when it suits them.

2. I have previously ask Marshall about putting all the updates into 1 file so you don't have to download 12 or so files just to play your turn, his response was that the file would be too large, which I would agree with if EVERY GROUP I'M IN didn't already use some 3rd party file management site (like Google or Yahoo) and didn't already ZIP the files (making them quite small and managable).



pzgndr -> RE: If you had to pick the biggest drawback of this game? (8/9/2009 1:51:35 PM)

quote:

If Matrix followed up on anything they say, such as posters who personally insult other posters or posters who derail threads,


It's really quite simple. Personally insulting Matrix and Marshall and generally derailing this entire forum with negative rantings (ie, gratuitous bashing, like a Walmart Greeter of Doom), is uncalled for and unappreciated. Please stop already? But if bashing is somehow OK then what's good for the goose must be good for the gander. If it's one thing a bully cannot stand it's someone else standing up to them.

As usual, the gripes raised here yet again have been repeatedly raised and discussed and argued about since the game was released in December 2007. That's a long time. And not really argued about -- the shortcomings are known and everyone generally agrees they need to get fixed. And Matrix and Marshall achknowledge this. The Mantis bug tracker is still full of issues and suggested game enhancements that need to get done, and Marshall is working them off as best he can. And everyone knows this, and except for a few whiners most everyone else is willing to be patient with this process. So what the heck is the point opening up yet another pointless beat-the-dead-horse thread to rehash yet again what everyone knows? It's stupid. It's just whining. Please stop already?? [8|]



[image]local://upfiles/11380/C9E61D4930144D7DB63255268B7F23E9.jpg[/image]



Dancing Bear -> RE: If you had to pick the biggest drawback of this game? (8/9/2009 2:28:47 PM)

Isn't it a bit late to try and take the high road on this one?



borner -> RE: If you had to pick the biggest drawback of this game? (8/9/2009 4:21:09 PM)

actually Ps, all neverman was doing is asking a question. and a legitimate one. I think your reply took this thread down the wrong road.



pzgndr -> RE: If you had to pick the biggest drawback of this game? (8/9/2009 4:56:28 PM)

quote:

actually Ps, all neverman was doing is asking a question. and a legitimate one


No, I disagree that was all he was doing. Legitimate? Raising the issue for the umpteenth time?? If he has something original and constructive to offer, and sometimes (rarely) he does, no problem. But another "what's wrong with this game?" or "why is this game unplayable?" or whatever is just another whining thread.

There are other threads with constructive discussion going on about what specifically to fix/improve to help pbem games go faster. No argument there. Nothing new there. Why bring up the question, again? NeverMan has an agenda here and it's not a pretty one or a particularly helpful one. If he wants to behave the way he does and blast away with his negative rantings, then a little counter-fire should be acceptable. This is a practical exercise for Newton's Third Law: For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. Stop with the negative rantings and I'll stop.

Howzabout Mr. NeverMan taking a chill pill and be quiet? We are all in the same boat wanting a game that works right (bug free, fast pbem, challenging AI, etc.) and we don't need the same questions being asked or the same complaints being aired or any of the old arguments rehashed over and over. Legitimate? Yeah, a year ago they were legitimate; now they're just damn annoying and aren't helpful at all. Please stop already? [8|]



borner -> RE: If you had to pick the biggest drawback of this game? (8/10/2009 1:43:03 AM)

perhaps that was his motive, perhaps not. Still no argument the thread went from a question to one of personal attacks very early. If you find his posts annoying, why post in reply?




NeverMan -> RE: If you had to pick the biggest drawback of this game? (8/10/2009 3:38:58 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: borner

perhaps that was his motive, perhaps not. Still no argument the thread went from a question to one of personal attacks very early. If you find his posts annoying, why post in reply?




Personal attack? YES. Interesting that Matrix doesn't seem to care. I guess Erik is only concerned when it's covering his own hide.



pzgndr -> RE: If you had to pick the biggest drawback of this game? (8/10/2009 12:13:41 PM)

Personal attack? These are girly-man fighting words! [X(]

I suppose the endless blistering negative rants against Matrix and Marshall are to be viewed as "helpful" and "considerate"? Thank god we have a computer game programming expert and computer game sales/marketing expert like NeverMan to offer his valuable insights for free, except that everyone else is too damn stupid to appreciate him. [&o]



Erik Rutins -> RE: If you had to pick the biggest drawback of this game? (8/10/2009 4:20:30 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: NeverMan
If you had to pick just one drawback of this game that you considered the biggest, what would it be?
For me, it's the speed of the game. I loath the bugs, the bad UI, the horrible EiH crap, the modified EiA stuff.... but above all the speed of the game is the most annoying part.
What do you find most annoying? Or what is the reason people you know who would love to try this game are staying away?


I'm sorry I didn't see this earlier. This is not the way to begin a constructive thread. Whatever your motives, the tone of the original post and the title makes this a type of thread known as "trolling" which is generally banned on all forums, because it inevitably leads to flame wars. You know that there are people on this forum that agree and disagree with your (strongly held) opinions on EIA, so you also must have known that this kind of thread would indeed lead to an argument.

On a personal level, I have already had an extremely stressful morning and simply don't have time to read through each post, so if I come across as short here, I apologize. I did read enough to see that, as could have been predicted, it devolved into personal insults. However, this thread is locked and I would thank everyone who participated here to please mind your manners in the future.

When I have time to read through the whole thing, those of you who made personal insults, consider yourselves warned. Neverman, consider yourself on probation as well. I think you have had plenty of chances to express your dislikes in other threads without starting a trolling style thread.

Regards,

- Erik



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