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dpstafford -> Too Funny (8/7/2009 1:54:33 AM)

Not really.

When you create a sub patrol TF, it defaults to retirement rather than remain-on-station.

When you create a sub mine laying TF, it defaults to Do Not Lay Mines.

Both completely the opposite of what it should be.

If you guys are really interested in making a dent in the excessive mouse clicks, here is an easy one to start with.




Don Bowen -> RE: Too Funny (8/7/2009 2:31:04 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: dpstafford

Not really.

When you create a sub patrol TF, it defaults to retirement rather than remain-on-station.

When you create a sub mine laying TF, it defaults to Do Not Lay Mines.

Both completely the opposite of what it should be.

If you guys are really interested in making a dent in the excessive mouse clicks, here is an easy one to start with.




I disagree.



Mynok -> RE: Too Funny (8/7/2009 2:37:12 AM)


I'm with Don. The settings should be consistent for all task forces, and that means Retirement Allowed is the default, as is Do Not Lay Mines...for all TFs. Especially with Mine TFs, I don't want to forget and have them dump their load where I created them before I set their destination.



dpstafford -> RE: Too Funny (8/7/2009 3:29:06 AM)

At least now I know how AE got so screwed up.

This particular item, manual sub operations, worked just fine in WITP. Without these buttons.

Rule 1: if something isn't broken, don't "fix" it.

Rule 2: see rule #1



TalonCG2 -> RE: Too Funny (8/7/2009 4:11:33 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: dpstafford

At least now I know how AE got so screwed up.
This particular item, manual sub operations, worked just fine in WITP. Without these buttons.
Rule 1: if something isn't broken, don't "fix" it.
Rule 2: see rule #1


Keeping all TFs and default settings consistent is less confusing and necessary. It makes perfect sense to have them set the way they currently are.

I think you're a bit confused. AE is damn near perfect. Only a few minor tweaks and it will be wargaming nirvana. To that I say, AE ain't broke! Don't try to fix it!

The game by it's very nature is a click fest. The game difficulty is listed as gronard, anorak, war historian for a reason! If you're looking for less work, more action, go play PacStorm or something on the Xbox. [8|] [:'(]



aprezto -> RE: Too Funny (8/7/2009 4:34:28 AM)

It is certainly a click fest though. I am so daunted by this that I am crawling my way through the grand campaign turn 1.

click, click, click, click.

Unfortunately I can't really see how you get around this though. We want to control everything but want the game to somehow 'know' what we want. A necessary evil maybe, but it sure makes the first turn hell.



Mynok -> RE: Too Funny (8/7/2009 4:37:15 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: dpstafford

At least now I know how AE got so screwed up.

This particular item, manual sub operations, worked just fine in WITP. Without these buttons.

Rule 1: if something isn't broken, don't "fix" it.

Rule 2: see rule #1


It works the same way it worked in Witp. Both buttons were there and performed exactly the same way.



dpstafford -> RE: Too Funny (8/7/2009 5:03:55 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mynok

It works the same way it worked in Witp. Both buttons were there and performed exactly the same way.

Well, that would explain a lot. Apparently you never played WITP. Those buttons are NOT on Sub TF's in WITP.



dpstafford -> RE: Too Funny (8/7/2009 5:07:22 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: TalonCG2
The game by it's very nature is a click fest. The game difficulty is listed as gronard, anorak, war historian for a reason! If you're looking for less work, more action, go play PacStorm or something on the Xbox. [8|] [:'(]

I have been playing "gronard" games since you were in diapers. When you have a thousand turns or so under belt in PacWar/UV/WITP/AE then you can talk to me about your Xbox.



jimh009 -> RE: Too Funny (8/7/2009 5:14:30 AM)

There's no doubt that AE requires lots of clicking. But, this is a huge game in incredible detail. No real way around much of the clicking. Only thing that bothers me...and takes up a lot of my time and "clicks"...is all the stuff going on in the off-map areas and having to constantly check for aircraft withdraws. It would have been helpful if all the reinforcements that arrive "off map" arrived "on-map" instead and if air units that are withdrawn soon after the game begins and are "locked down" never appeared in the game to begin with (locked down air units on the east coast...scheduled to be withdrawn in January '42 and have one aircraft each...what's the point of these units at all?). At times, you can have too much detail and have it accomplish little but bog the game down.

But other than that, no real complaints from me about AE.



dpstafford -> RE: Too Funny (8/7/2009 5:16:28 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: aprezto
Unfortunately I can't really see how you get around this though. We want to control everything but want the game to somehow 'know' what we want. A necessary evil maybe, but it sure makes the first turn hell.

Play WITP and you'll see how the original designers got around it. At least some of it.

I'm not denying that AE fixed and improved a lot of thngs from WITP. But they went over board shoving every beta tester's pet project into the game.

Stafford's theorem: There are players and there are modders. Are rarely the two shall meet in the same head. This monster had too many modders and not enough players working on it. But then, I guess it would be the modders who were most willing to work it. The players were too busy playing. So I guess we players have no one to blame but ourselves.....



jimh009 -> RE: Too Funny (8/7/2009 5:18:59 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: dpstafford

Not really.

When you create a sub patrol TF, it defaults to retirement rather than remain-on-station.

When you create a sub mine laying TF, it defaults to Do Not Lay Mines.

Both completely the opposite of what it should be.

If you guys are really interested in making a dent in the excessive mouse clicks, here is an easy one to start with.




In WiTP, mine laying TF's defaulted to "Do Not Lay Mines." Fire up WiTP and check.

Subs in WiTP also defaulted to retirement allowed, although, like you...I found that annoying. But as another poster said, it's probably a good thing that all task forces are "standardized", even if it means a few more clicks here and there. Besides, with subs in AE, you can just set them once and forget about them for months and months on end now...unlike WiTP, where sub management took up tons of time.

And I have 1000's of hours in WiTP and UV, too.



dpstafford -> RE: Too Funny (8/7/2009 5:27:01 AM)

I actually don't mind the off map stuff. But the plethora of withdraws on land, sea and air, as you said, are a real drawback to playability. The "war" in the Pacific has been completely lost.

They will claim that the constant withdraws are "realistic". But they are not. They happened when they did because of the historic situation at the time of the withdrawal. But the "history" is changed as soon as the first turn is played. Someone in charge of the OOB just went a little nuts.



dpstafford -> RE: Too Funny (8/7/2009 5:36:31 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: jimh009
In WiTP, mine laying TF's defaulted to "Do Not Lay Mines." Fire up WiTP and check.

Subs in WiTP also defaulted to retirement allowed, although, like you...I found that annoying. But as another poster said, it's probably a good thing that all task forces are "standardized", even if it means a few more clicks here and there. Besides, with subs in AE, you can just set them once and forget about them for months and months on end now...unlike WiTP, where sub management took up tons of time.

Yes, minelaying SURFACE TF's have that default. Sub minelaying TF's don't even have that switch. And they didn't need it.

And sub patrols are NOT defaulted to retirement in WITP. (Or did you mean AE?)




jimh009 -> RE: Too Funny (8/7/2009 5:36:49 AM)

I agree, at least to a certain extent, about all the withdraws. As you said, the withdraws happened for a reason during the war...reasons unlikely to be duplicated in a persons game. On the other hand, some withdraws (British ships in particular) and perhaps some ships from the US (to support Atlantic operations) do make sense. Certain land unit withdraws also make sense (the Marine Raiders...which were disbanded entirely as the war progressed). But I do think things went a bit overboard in the unit withdraw department...especially the air groups that are withdrawn and then "come back" a few months later with a different name.



jimh009 -> RE: Too Funny (8/7/2009 5:37:40 AM)

Ah...lol, I never use sub minelaying TF's in WiTP. There were enough mines floating around in WiTP, so never found a use for sub minelayers!



erstad -> RE: Too Funny (8/7/2009 5:38:46 AM)

I'm not endorsing all of dpstafford's comments. However, he is right that sub TFs in WiTP did not have the retirement allowed option. See screenie below - sub tfs are set to patrol/do not retire, and it's greyed out meaning you can't change it.

I would personally favor setting sub tfs to remain on station, that is what you want 99.9% of the time. But that's an opinion. It is a fact that it is different than Witp (unless I'm confused on some way?)




[image]local://upfiles/13407/76116AC81D4549048347708B523F2960.jpg[/image]



dpstafford -> RE: Too Funny (8/7/2009 5:41:01 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: jimh009
At times, you can have too much detail and have it accomplish little but bog the game down.

That's all I am saying. And trying to point out some of those areas. From the perspective of a player. Not a modder.



dpstafford -> RE: Too Funny (8/7/2009 5:44:02 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: erstad
I would personally favor setting sub tfs to remain on station, that is what you want 99.9% of the time. But that's an opinion. It is a fact that it is different than Witp (unless I'm confused on some way?)

Right on all counts. Maybe 99.99%



dpstafford -> RE: Too Funny (8/7/2009 5:47:31 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: jimh009
Ah...lol, I never use sub minelaying TF's in WiTP. There were enough mines floating around in WiTP, so never found a use for sub minelayers!

I only used them for minelaying because the torpedo dud rate is so high in the early war. And because they can lay mines in the enemy rear areas.



rroberson -> RE: Too Funny (8/7/2009 5:55:07 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: dpstafford


quote:

ORIGINAL: TalonCG2
The game by it's very nature is a click fest. The game difficulty is listed as gronard, anorak, war historian for a reason! If you're looking for less work, more action, go play PacStorm or something on the Xbox. [8|] [:'(]

I have been playing "gronard" games since you were in diapers. When you have a thousand turns or so under belt in PacWar/UV/WITP/AE then you can talk to me about your Xbox.



I do have have a thousand turns or so under the belt in PacWar/UV/WITP/AE. And I have an xbox. Wanna talk?

Once I realized that those settings had to be set on subs...it took me exactly 1 second to correct it.



Kaletsch2007 -> RE: Too Funny (8/7/2009 8:47:51 AM)

Allways very interesting, how people (few of them) can find a hair in every soup. Maybe they are even searching for it ?!
Should not be a problem to allways remember to set the sub TF to remain on station and tell them to lay mines.

I know, nobody is really interested in my small opinion, but this discussion is not worth more then 2 cents.



Chickenboy -> RE: Too Funny (8/7/2009 2:26:49 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: dpstafford


quote:

ORIGINAL: erstad
I would personally favor setting sub tfs to remain on station, that is what you want 99.9% of the time. But that's an opinion. It is a fact that it is different than Witp (unless I'm confused on some way?)

Right on all counts. Maybe 99.99%


I respectfully disagree. Keeping your sub TFs set to remain on station (in a given target hex) is a good way to get 'em killed in AE. I'd prefer to not have my submarine forces *defaulted* to a very dangerous activity.

In order to keep them anywhere in the theater or targeted area in WITP one had to have them remain on station ('Do not retire') or set them up with movement orders EVERY TURN. A bit monotonous and repetitive.

The 'Patrol Zone' scripts in AE are a godsend as far as I'm concerned. They effectively neuter this argument, as I can't think of too many reasons to just give a sub a single one hex destination and order it to not retire once it gets there.



Mynok -> RE: Too Funny (8/7/2009 2:55:09 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: dpstafford

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mynok

It works the same way it worked in Witp. Both buttons were there and performed exactly the same way.

Well, that would explain a lot. Apparently you never played WITP. Those buttons are NOT on Sub TF's in WITP.


I was talking about tf's in general. Since sub tf's now DO have those buttons, they should work absolutely consistently with other tf's.



erstad -> RE: Too Funny (8/7/2009 3:27:27 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

The 'Patrol Zone' scripts in AE are a godsend as far as I'm concerned. They effectively neuter this argument, as I can't think of too many reasons to just give a sub a single one hex destination and order it to not retire once it gets there.



Good point. I haven't done much with patrol zones yet. (baby steps, then bigger steps, then ...)



Sardaukar -> RE: Too Funny (8/7/2009 3:49:31 PM)

Best thing is command "Patrol around target", which quickly sets patrol zone around hex. Really quick and useful.



Placatio -> RE: Too Funny (8/7/2009 3:55:31 PM)

I must be weird on the minelaying.  I LIKE the "Do not lay mines" default.   Many times I want to refuel on the way and I don't want them laying mines in my refueling station because I forgot to change it :)

I agree on subs, though.  Default should be "Remain on Station" if that is easy enough to change for a patch.



Sardaukar -> RE: Too Funny (8/7/2009 4:00:47 PM)

I don't think you want your subs to "remain on station" in AE, which mean in one hex. Every time they are spotted, chances grow that they will be sunk or at least attacked since their detection level go up. It negates their effectiveness too, since spotted subs cause many TFs to avoid the area.

Using Patrol Zone where sub changes hex every day is way to go, and is very quick to set with "Patrol around target".



Mynok -> RE: Too Funny (8/7/2009 4:48:51 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Sardaukar
Using Patrol Zone where sub changes hex every day is way to go, and is very quick to set with "Patrol around target".


Exactly. Great new feature.



jeffk3510 -> RE: Too Funny (8/7/2009 5:21:29 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Sardaukar

I don't think you want your subs to "remain on station" in AE, which mean in one hex. Every time they are spotted, chances grow that they will be sunk or at least attacked since their detection level go up. It negates their effectiveness too, since spotted subs cause many TFs to avoid the area.

Using Patrol Zone where sub changes hex every day is way to go, and is very quick to set with "Patrol around target".


IF I recall correctly, you dont have to click the retire/remain on state button if youre going to use patrol/waypoints, because once you chose that option to patrol or use the way points, the retire/remain on station button is greyed out...

I could be wrong though.... but if not, that is one less click..



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