RE: Aussies vs Amis - World Defence(no Joe or Nik)

RE: Aussies vs Amis - World Defence(no Joe or Nik) (Full Version)

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jrcar -> RE: Aussies vs Amis - World Defence(no Joe or Nik) (2/13/2010 8:33:09 AM)
Have just processed the turn, a couple of things happening... It looks like they have pulled their fighters out of Alor (in the DEI). The B-17 wil go in again. We got a lot of Nells over Finshaven (see below). As long as we are suffering equal losses or less they I'm happy. This turn 25 P-40E and 30 Kittyhawk are LRCAPing Finshaven. In SOPAC forces will land this turn at Ndeni. The 4th Marine Def Bn and the 810 Engineers. It looks like Tulagi has possibly been abandoned, an Australian CA force is heading in to bombard to find out... In NORPAC I'm going to try a deliberate attack. Supplies will be around 70k so we can recover quickly. Forts are 4.19. If it flies and drops bombs then it will be supporting the attack (P-40 and P-39 as well as the 37 bombers). I have a lot of subs and search out and no sign of enemy shipping. Cheers Rob [image]local://upfiles/6237/7C94463494894AB8861DC4FA392AA27E.jpg[/image]

jrcar -> RE: Aussies vs Amis - World Defence(no Joe or Nik) (2/14/2010 9:40:47 PM)
22-23 Jul 1942 Subs Not much from our side. But they do well... I hope it is FOW... Sub attack near Adak Island at 162,53 Japanese Ships SS I-1 Allied Ships CA Minneapolis, Torpedo hits 1 CA Louisville DD Preston DD Cassin DD Tucker DD Flusser DD Reid BURMA Swebo reaches 3 Afld. Otherwise quite. We are trying to find their front line. Otherwise we are digging in. DEI The B-17 attack Alor against Oscar and Rufe Cap. Not a lot of damage to either side, although we have a lot of damaged aircraft. SWPAC No real change. Still wasn't able to stop them bombing Finshaven. Not much dameg to either side. The remants of the 8th Div are concentrating at PM abd the div will be reformed. We are pumping in lots of supply. Merauke reaches a level 3 port. SOPAC All quiet. Forces are landing at Ndeni. NORPAC the ground attack goes in: Ground combat at Adak Island (162,52) Allied Deliberate attack Attacking force 19070 troops, 279 guns, 283 vehicles, Assault Value = 508 Defending force 32366 troops, 340 guns, 203 vehicles, Assault Value = 682 Allied adjusted assault: 169 Japanese adjusted defense: 1307 Allied assault odds: 1 to 7 Combat modifiers Defender: terrain(+), leaders(+), experience(-) Attacker: Japanese ground losses: 744 casualties reported Squads: 4 destroyed, 58 disabled Non Combat: 3 destroyed, 58 disabled Engineers: 5 destroyed, 5 disabled Guns lost 1 (0 destroyed, 1 disabled) Vehicles lost 13 (1 destroyed, 12 disabled) Allied ground losses: 1384 casualties reported Squads: 4 destroyed, 137 disabled Non Combat: 3 destroyed, 109 disabled Engineers: 0 destroyed, 1 disabled Guns lost 2 (0 destroyed, 2 disabled) Vehicles lost 18 (0 destroyed, 18 disabled) I was surprised at how low our AV was... must have failed some checks. Theres was about what I expected. They have 2 HQ so should have some good leaders... they must have gotten a lot of supply ashore, as they are recovering AV (but low experiance). Our guys will recover quickly. China At Hankow they still fail to get even 1:1 odds. Our guys are surrounded and supply is low... Ground combat at Hankow (85,50) Japanese Deliberate attack Attacking force 28858 troops, 299 guns, 121 vehicles, Assault Value = 1147 Defending force 36705 troops, 200 guns, 0 vehicles, Assault Value = 753 Japanese adjusted assault: 625 Allied adjusted defense: 893 Japanese assault odds: 1 to 2 Combat modifiers Defender: terrain(+), supply(-) Attacker: Japanese ground losses: 677 casualties reported Squads: 1 destroyed, 59 disabled Non Combat: 3 destroyed, 56 disabled Engineers: 0 destroyed, 9 disabled Vehicles lost 22 (0 destroyed, 22 disabled) Allied ground losses: 524 casualties reported Squads: 4 destroyed, 32 disabled Non Combat: 2 destroyed, 51 disabled Engineers: 0 destroyed, 1 disabled Elsewhere they finally destroy a trapped unit behind the lines, but fail in an attack on another unit.

jrcar -> RE: Aussies vs Amis - World Defence(no Joe or Nik) (2/14/2010 11:05:08 PM)
Notes from Turn. The CA Miniapolis is at 22 float and is headed back to Kodiak under escort. Plane losses on both sides were light, we lost 1 B-17 against Alor, with most of the rest being ops losses. It is looking like they have pulled out of Tulagi. Burma is now very interesting (see map). We have finally found their FEBA... but it looks like they are pulling out! At Ramree Island it looks like we have cut of the endemy regiment there.. An Aussie div is on the way. While pulling back like they have made sense as a temporary tactical withdrawal... pulling back further doesn't, I continue to be surprised. The Allies just don't have that much combat power on the ground, and even air attacks do a lot less damage in recent exe upgrades. Japanese air ASW though is starting to become nasty, have two more damaged subs this turn that have to retire... makes about 6 in the yards due to Japanese air ASW. We need to follow then up everywhere so we can determine where they are going to fight, and start prepping forces... while not rushing too fast and becoming exposed. Cheers Rob

jrcar -> RE: Aussies vs Amis - World Defence(no Joe or Nik) (2/15/2010 11:42:01 PM)
24-25 Jul 1942 Subs Our guys do nothing. We loose an already damaged sub to a combination of another air attack and bad damage control. Burma We hit Ramree island with medium bombers to little to light effect. The B-17 and P-38 are resting and recovering. DEI We hit Alor again. Fighter opposition now includes Zero's, Rufe and Oscar... finally a place they want to defend! We get some aircraft on the ground and cause light damage. I think we loose two more B-17. Only about 1/3rd of the group is flying as 2/3rds are damaged/repairing :( Not sure if we will continue or not. SWPAC Same attacks on Hollianda and Lae by us. They attack Finshaven again. Our troops are slowly being attrited. But this turn 6 Nell come unescorted, 5 are shot down. I addition we get 2-4 Zero, but will have lost 4-6 fighters in return. Still favourable to us... just. Otherwise the place is quiet. NORPAC We bombard with ships, ground and air. Damage is light. Under the new patch causing damage is now a lot harder! Lesson - Rearming ships. At Kodiak I have an AKE. It will happily reload all the ammo on 3 CA and 6 DD in one turn, but then is out of ops points and supply. I then had to load supply, clear ops points then re-arm a BB or two at a time... Lesson have more than one AKE/AE otherwise you will take several days to rearm! Another AKE is on the way. We have 3 AKE and an AE in Australia to support the Aru/Ambon operation. We have an AKE and AE in the SOPAC to support the TB operation. China They attack at Hankow again and again fail to get even 1:1. Their losses are also higher... great job lads! When you run out of rats the crickets are taty too! In a couple of days I'll post shots of all the areas. Cheers Rob

Rob Brennan UK -> RE: Aussies vs Amis - World Defence(no Joe or Nik) (2/16/2010 12:08:43 AM)
Hi Rob , just read this AAR from start to finish (took 2 days [;)]) , very interesting and informative for us allied wannabe's. sure hope I/we (maybe doing a team game) can emulate your success but i doubt it [;)] . Thank you for taking the time to write all this and shame on tony being a lazy blighter [;)] Your advances in east PNG are just eye popping for someone embroiled in the guad scenario, and I'm of the opinion that your opponents really dropped the ball in the PI and also more recnently on adak. they cant have done any useful recon and maybe just assumed it would easily fall to thier 'superior' force. and no i havnt read the other side , nor will I untill the games over. Carry on flying the Aussie flag all over the pacific !

jrcar -> RE: Aussies vs Amis - World Defence(no Joe or Nik) (2/16/2010 11:16:22 PM)
Rob thanks for the feedback, actually the Aussie flag is flying even better in Burma, after the war we shouldn't have to worry about getting oil from anyone else :) Certainly the PI threw a spanner in their works and delayed their plan. Adak was also a surprise to them. This is what the Allied player has to do, upset the Japanese plans whenever you can, not for any other reason than to sow doubt force them to replan and therefore create delay. You also want to do this with the minimum force possible being lost! Actually I think our actions around the DEI, including the CV strike, helped a lot too. Their greatest mistake was when KB basically closed down PM they didn't follow up. They didn't have to invade PM, but landing more troops and supply at Lae would have had a similar effect. Instead they raided PM, and a few days later the base was back up. Cheers Rob quote: ORIGINAL: Rob Brennan UK Hi Rob , just read this AAR from start to finish (took 2 days [;)]) , very interesting and informative for us allied wannabe's. sure hope I/we (maybe doing a team game) can emulate your success but i doubt it [;)] . Thank you for taking the time to write all this and shame on tony being a lazy blighter [;)] Your advances in east PNG are just eye popping for someone embroiled in the guad scenario, and I'm of the opinion that your opponents really dropped the ball in the PI and also more recnently on adak. they cant have done any useful recon and maybe just assumed it would easily fall to thier 'superior' force. and no i havnt read the other side , nor will I untill the games over. Carry on flying the Aussie flag all over the pacific !

LoBaron -> RE: Aussies vs Amis - World Defence(no Joe or Nik) (2/17/2010 7:41:19 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Rob Brennan UK Hi Rob , just read this AAR from start to finish (took 2 days [;)]) , very interesting and informative for us allied wannabe's. sure hope I/we (maybe doing a team game) can emulate your success but i doubt it [;)] . Thank you for taking the time to write all this and shame on tony being a lazy blighter [;)] Your advances in east PNG are just eye popping for someone embroiled in the guad scenario, and I'm of the opinion that your opponents really dropped the ball in the PI and also more recnently on adak. they cant have done any useful recon and maybe just assumed it would easily fall to thier 'superior' force. and no i havnt read the other side , nor will I untill the games over. Carry on flying the Aussie flag all over the pacific ! Second that. Rob pointed me towards this AAR and I�m very impressed. Good delaying action, the way you bite and counter on every remote situation is truly something that causes for gray hair over on the dark side... [:D] That said I�m not even halfway through (around p7ish) so I�ll stop the chat and read on. [sm=00000613.gif]

jrcar -> RE: Aussies vs Amis - World Defence(no Joe or Nik) (2/18/2010 2:23:23 AM)
Thanks Lobaron, most of what I've learnt is from having Tony kick my butt a few times... I much prefer him on my side! They key as Allies early on is delaying, without loosing much (in particular ground troops). Loosing CL's and the ocasional CA is ok, and even a CV... loose 3-4 Cv and a lot of ships and you are resticted in your approach... loss a good division or two of ground troops and you will really hurt. Cheers Rob

Alfred -> RE: Aussies vs Amis - World Defence(no Joe or Nik) (2/18/2010 2:44:00 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: jrcar Thanks Lobaron, most of what I've learnt is from having Tony kick my butt a few times... I much prefer him on my side! They key as Allies early on is delaying, without loosing much (in particular ground troops). Loosing CL's and the ocasional CA is ok, and even a CV... loose 3-4 Cv and a lot of ships and you are resticted in your approach... loss a good division or two of ground troops and you will really hurt. Cheers Rob Far too modest. What you mention are only some tactical considerations, which would be of very limited benefit without: (a) a sound integrated Allied strategic plan, (b) careful assessment of enemy capabilities and intentions, (c) subjugation of emotional considerations/feelings to hard nosed rational professionalism. Now that you seem to be garnering additional readers and increasing your media exposure, you may have to change your PR or Management firm to maximise your "remuneration". I wonder if Michael Clarke's/Lara Bingle's minders have room to add to their stable two additional stars. Alfred

jrcar -> RE: Aussies vs Amis - World Defence(no Joe or Nik) (2/19/2010 7:08:38 AM)
Guys thanks for the comments After some false starts we have the new turn. The real interesting bit is in Burma. They have pulled out of prome, and look to be pulling back on the main axis as well! At Ramree Is we have cut off an Infantry Regt.The main forces will come and take it. [image]local://upfiles/6237/7608B208E80140BD8CA881FEC917443A.jpg[/image]

jrcar -> RE: Aussies vs Amis - World Defence(no Joe or Nik) (2/19/2010 8:08:24 AM)
So what are they doing.... Probably pulling back to more defensible terrain closer to supply sources. Shortening their front. The impact of this is that we probably can't punch through a line held like that, if they finally commit their air force to defend it... well not for some time. We probably could gain air superiority given time, but from what I've seen so far the Allies can't generate the combat power, even though we have added a US Div and the Australian Corps... I doubt it will be enough on the ground. The new rules on bombardments and air attacks also mean that even with air superiority we can only really hurt them with ground troops... and if we lost a big battle then we would be in trouble. We have a few options here now. Go on the defensive. This would release ground and air forces for other theatres. We are strong enough that we can probably stop a Japanese offensive (although if they really concentrated we may be in trouble. Try to attack. We need to wait to see where and when they stop withdrawing to even see if this is viable... Manoeuvre. What options do we have: a. move an Anglo Allied army into China... Historically difficult to swallow. b. Reinforce North Sumatra (which we still hold) c. go for Java. d. as a single operation, or a prelude to b or c take back Port Blair. I like d followed by b. IRL the Allies did plan to invade Sumatra, but a lack of landing craft and will power stoped them... Sabang is relatively easy to get forces into a bit at a time, there is enough supply at the moment to allow us to try and build a base. Send in maybe an bde plus engineers (the forts are already a 3). The problem is a lack of air support as all the Allied CV's are in the pacific, except for Hermes. As it is Tonys theatre it will be his call, but the discussions have commenced... Cheers Rob

Cribtop -> RE: Aussies vs Amis - World Defence(no Joe or Nik) (2/20/2010 4:05:09 AM)
I strongly recommend feinting in Burma to hold them in the nose while you kick them in their Sumatran pants. Take Port Blair but make it look like an ancillary move aimed at Rangoon rather than a major effort. The key to my mind regarding all of this - do you believe you could mount a serious threat to Palembang, even just a strategic bombing threat? That is the real prize in making these moves. At a minimum you will absolutely force their air force to engage in an attritional battle as the Japanese cannot afford to lose Palembang's oil. In the best case you will trash Palembang by air or ground and seriously shorten the war.

anthonykevinluke -> RE: Aussies vs Amis - World Defence(no Joe or Nik) (2/21/2010 12:05:07 AM)
Morning/Evening Gentlemen, I have decided to post just to see if Rob faints or his wife rings me and says' that he has collapsed in shock and is expected to be 'out cold' for several days :) As Rob states we are considering options at this stage; the first key is to determine where their new front line is going to be and what it consists of. This will enable us to analyse the critical piece of the puzzle - what their reserves are and where they are located. As our opponents shorten their defensive line they in turn reduce our options - in turns of both 'gaps and surfaces' and their ability to wield a large reserve on interior lines. Other issues slowing a move on Sumatra at this point are that I have sent just about all the AP's over to the PAC for the two soon to be launched OPs, and a lack of supporting Naval assets. I also note that he has some Japanese units now closed up on our positions in Sumatra and thus I expect he will act well before I can get there. In the short term I will close up on his forces in Burma (again!) and attempt to remain in contact as I work out what he is up to. At the same time I will build up some supporting Aflds and move foward the troops which are still straggling across the mountains, rivers and trails! Simultaneous to this I will recce Port Blair and maybe put some 'eyes' on Sumatra to work out what's there. Either way, an attempt to take Nth Sumatra with a force that won't suffer a "Dieppe' like fate is a little ways off. Will commence our sequential OPs TB and AL this turn. Apologies for posting so rarely and thank you for all the kind comments. Rob and I work extremely well together as allies instead of beating each other to death as opponents! He is a great player and makes up for my many poor tactical/operational and strategic decisions :) We alway's discuss our moves in advance, plus contingencies/branches/sequels; and therefore have a good feel for each others strengths and weaknesses as well as the general battle rythym. I will try and put up a med and long term Op Analysis sometime in the next week or so after Rob and I chat. Much will hang on where our opponents settle in the Burma Theatre and the success of the two coming Ops. Regards, Tony

jrcar -> RE: Aussies vs Amis - World Defence(no Joe or Nik) (2/21/2010 3:07:45 AM)
Well, I just had to have a little sleep to recover from my surprise at the post... where has the real Tony gone.... Oh I know, you tasked one of your students with writing in the AAR for you! Cheers Rob

jrcar -> RE: Aussies vs Amis - World Defence(no Joe or Nik) (2/21/2010 3:55:25 AM)
26-27 Jul 1942 Subs Another turn with no bangs. We attack the main Japanese AO Tf sth of Davao for no effect. A Japanese sub attempts to sink one of ours with no effect. We attack a TF sth of Medan (which appears to have dropped off troops that are advancing in Nth Sumatra), but get depth charged for our troubles. Japanese aircraft are making it really uncomfortable around Singapore. In the DEI there are now no subs around Kendari due to the Japanses aircraft damaging them all. Burma Prome has been abandoned, so the Allied air moves to Toungoo. A deep strike by B-17 hits an AA Bn at Moulmein to light effect. I continue to be surprised by their actions here. Posts elswehere on the forum indicates they are very concerned with their position here... I'm very concerned of ours! We have only advanced because they fell back... we only continue to maintain contact. Our main forces are at Lashio (600AV), Shwebe (700+AV) with Meitkilta having 250AV. Otherwise we just have light forces forward... they really have run from a threat that really isn't there... I just hope they don't realise it! Sumatra Enemy forces have landed at Tandjoengbalai, and have advanced nth towards Medan. We have about 130AV and lvl 3 forts. DEI We attack Alor again, and loose 4-5 B-17 against a light CAP o 12 total Zero, Oscar Rufe. I have an entire group of almost 40 B-17, and only 6-10 fly. We can't sustain this anymore. This is what the Japanese player has to do against B-17, fight them, loose planes but eventually you will stop them. Replacements are low, and the needs are high, you must fight them when you can and not let the Allied player create a mass. Otherwise quiet. SWPAC Gull Bn is almost fully unloaded at PM. Next turn the 8th AUS Div will be reconstituted as the defenders of PM. This will free forces up for offensive action. This turn their Netties attack the airbase at Wau causing light to moderate damage that isn't fully repaired. More enginners are flown in, and the fighters pulled back from LRCAP to defend the base. The troops from Finshafen should get to Lae next turn. We have moved in more transport aircraft to PM and have 3 sqadrons moving forces to Wau, and Milne bay. The movement to Buna is complete and the heavy equipment will be moved overland. Milne Bay is 50% to a level one port. Buna is still building forts (currently 1.5). Once it hits 3 will move to airfield development. We now have a low experiance B-24 group (50% of the aircraft it needs though) assembling between Brisbane and Darwin. In a few more turn they will move to Merauke to gain experiance bombing Hollianda, and the medium group will pull back to rest. SOPAC A CA TF hits Tulagi and finds nothing. Recon also indicates no troops at Tulagi. Forces continue to prep at Suva to land en masse. Unloading at Ndeni continues. 50% to a level 1 port. This will be built to a level 1-2 port and 2 airfield as a backstop to Tulagi, a forward protection to Luganville and flank protection to Fiji. Pacific The forces begin loading for the TB operation. See the screen shot below to see the forces assigned (around 400AV). NORPAC Usual. The BB TF has assembled for another run in to Adak from Kodiak. Our extensive sub fleet indicates no threats in the area. China At Hankow the bombing from the air sees them get two 1:1 attacks... the end is coming for our forces... the longer they delay the better though! [image]local://upfiles/6237/CCD24B9081DD46E0981C2A7EB1CC6346.jpg[/image]

jrcar -> RE: Aussies vs Amis - World Defence(no Joe or Nik) (2/21/2010 8:03:17 AM)
History lesson/observations. Tonight while looking for inspiration I started re-reading: "The Campaign In the Marianas" The War in the Pacific, U.S. Army In World War II (official History). The timeline/influences were: Pre war War Plan Orange. Pre US involvement in war agreement with the UK on Germany first, and agreement that Hong Kong, Singapore, Java, Philippines would be held, with US responsible for the later. 30 March 1942 SWPAC assigned Solomon�s Is West into the DEI. Pacific Ocean the rest. PO sub divided into SOPAC, CENTPAC, NORPAC. July 1942 US Joint Chiefs order the advance through the Solomon�s and PNG to secure the line of communications between OZ and US. Casablanca Conference Jan 1943 Casablanca conference mapped out global strategy: Operations in Europe Offensive in Burma to aid China Planning for a Marianas campaign 17 Jan 1943 the US Joint Staff planners presented a program: 1. Seize of the Solomon Is and PNG as far as Lae. 2. Seize of Kiska and Agattu 3. Seize Gilberts then Marianas Marshalls up to Truk. 4. Operations in Burma to allow aircraft in China to operate against the Japanese Final agreement at Casablanca was for: 1. Aleutians 2. Solomon�s PNG. 3. Diversionary attacks against the "Malay Barrier". 4. Central Pacific thrust. TRIDENT Meetings May 1943 in the UK/US TRIDENT discussions the focus was on the Med and Burma and China. Reaffirmed Cent Pac strategy. 14 May US Planners presented the Combined Chiefs (UK/US) a plan/estimate: To bring about un-conditional surrender of Japan it will be necessary for the Allies to gain a foothold in China in order to base aircraft out of. Three ways to do this, via Burma, through the Straits of Malacca, Across the Pacific. The UK, with US and Chinese aid would be responsible for the former two, the US the later. US planners then proposed a two pronged approach, through the Solomon�s Is/PNG approach and through the CENTPAC. The final agreement of the TRIDENT meetings were: 1. Conducting air operations In and From China. 2. Ejection of the Japanese from the Aleutians. 3. Seize the Marshal Islands (CENTPAC) 4. Solomon�s and PNG up to and including Rabaul. 5. Operations against the Japanese line of communications. MacArthur then gets involved ref SWPAC vs CENTPAC strategy, eventually the SWPAC first approach is taken. Enter the Army Airforce Autumn 1943 the Army Air force announce the immanent arrival of the B-29. The capabilities of this aircraft has a dramatic impact indicating that the US can either bomb the Japanese in to submission in three areas, China (via Burma), SWPAC, or Cent Pac. Initially China is preferred, but in the end logistically the CENTPAC becomes the preferred option. Next what does this mean for the game...

jrcar -> RE: Aussies vs Amis - World Defence(no Joe or Nik) (2/21/2010 8:45:06 AM)
What the History means for the Game I like to play "reasonably" historically in part to understand what was going through the minds of the commanders, and why. On the other hand I don't want to be straitjacketed too much, I want to explore the experience, not necessarily repeat it (that is what documentaries, histories and movies are for). In our game we have now: a. secured half of Burma, with the increasing likelihood of securing the lot, including the recapture of Rangoon. Certainly the line of communications has been reopened with China via a land route. b. secured the line of communications with the US via holding SE PNG, Luganville, Fiji. With operations underway to size Lae and the SE Solomons c. preparing to develop a base in the Gillbert Islands as a stepping stone to the Marshalls. d. secured the Aleutians (although Adak is contested!). Basically that conforms to the Casablanca and TRIDENT meetings (and about 6- 12 months ahead of schedule!). So now I'd like to reasonably historical in what we think about for future operations. The first thing that struck me was the emphasis on Burma to keep China in the war, and the desire to base aircraft there (including the new B-29, logistically supported by B-24 flying in supplies!). In our alternative history we have now secured the LOC into China, however historically they needed Rangoon to ship in supplies pre war (In our alternative history we sent in LOTS of extra supply early, shipped it north to Myitkyina (which we built up) and we have basically been living of the 80-90k in supplies we shipped in prior to Rangoon falling). An option for our alternative history then is to now move US forces into China (one concern by the US Army Airforce was having to rely on Chinese troops to protect the airfields, in our history we have a US div to do that). This conforms to early war intent, and is logistically sustainable in our alternative history, in particular if we can re-open Rangoon. Another option is "Diversionary thrusts against the Malay Barrier". This could mean moving back in to Northern Sumatra, and certainly the capture of Port Blair also falls into this category. In the SWPAC we are taking a similar but different coarse of action compared to history. By going into the DEI (supported not from Darwin, but from the East coast of Australia - Townsville mainly) we are using PNG to shield us from the Japanese CV's (since they have superiority) while using our increasingly strong ground based air to base hop towards the Philippines. In real life by now the Japanese CV's had been neutered, this is not a fact in our alternative reality, so I think we are conforming to historical intent, just in a different way. We are attempting to secure Lae to protect our flank, and the Solomons to secure our LOC with the US, but will largely leave Rabaul north alone (except via airstrike). In the CENTPAC we are conducting an operation for three reasons: a. Help secure the LOC to the US (having TB as a forward base significantly shortens out LOC). b. Close up with the enemy. c. Draw the enemy CV's from both the DEI and the Aleutians, thereby helping to secure both of them. So far we are conforming to historical intent, but in our alternative reality we have done better as a starting point than in real life at this point. While we ca maintain this historical intent at the moment we may have to increasingly deviate from it as our alternative history increases the divergence from history. So what does that mean? We may go into China in force, this isn't "historical" but as I've demonstrated is within historical intent (logistics aside maybe). We are choosing viable historical alternatives (I.e we are not attacking from Darwin, but from an east coast port) in the SWPAC. Having said that we have recently successfully got one large 40k convoy from Sydney through to Darwin anyway... In the Centpac we are also conforming to historical intent, just in a different way. Cheers Rob

jrcar -> RE: Aussies vs Amis - World Defence(no Joe or Nik) (2/21/2010 11:29:34 PM)
28=29 Jul 1942 Subs Do really good this turn, bangs and great intel! First though bad news: TF 260 encounters mine field at Shikuka (126,43) Allied Ships SS Growler, Mine hits 1, on fire, heavy damage Sge is in a bad way and may not make it :( Sub attack near Eniwetok at 124,108 Japanese Ships xAKL Tokihime Maru, Torpedo hits 1, on fire, heavy damage xAKL Sakae Maru xAKL Eiwa Maru xAKL Shinmei Maru xAKL Honan Maru xAKL Ryusei Maru xAKL Shoyu Maru xAKL Penang Maru xAKL Batavia Maru SC CHa-35 Allied Ships SS Swordfish Sub attack near Truk at 113,109 Japanese Ships CV Kaga CA Mogami CA Nachi CL Yura DD Makigumo DD Yugumo DD Kikuzuki DD Minazuki DD Hatsukaze Allied Ships SS Grenadier Sub attack near Eniwetok at 123,109 Japanese Ships xAKL Uchide Maru, Shell hits 13, on fire, heavy damage Allied Ships SS Swordfish Japanese ground losses: 20 casualties reported Squads: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled Non Combat: 1 destroyed, 1 disabled Engineers: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled Sub attack near Eniwetok at 123,109 Japanese Ships PB Takuna Maru #7 AS Jingei AD Shintoku Maru PB Okiyu Maru Allied Ships SS Swordfish The key ones here are the sighting of Kaga and the support ships sighted LEAVING Kawajalein. More on that in the next post. Burma The usual bombing by us and fleeing b them. It looks like they have fallen back to develop a main line of resistance at Moulmein! They are moving from everywhere else. Sumatra Three units are closing in on Medan. DEI Quiet. SWPAC Big air battle over Wau, the Japanese do better than us but damage is light and fully repaired. The Netties then discover the TF off Milne bay and try bombing, two attacks no hits... a lucky escape! Our ground troops have reached Lae. Only 9 AV so will halt for the moment. SOPAC Continue to unload at Ndeni. 85% to a level 1 port. CENTPAC TB forces begin loading and TF forming... but see the next few posts. NORPAC No change. We bomb and bombard. China Hankow is on its last legs. They continue to try and clear up their rear areas.

jrcar -> RE: Aussies vs Amis - World Defence(no Joe or Nik) (2/22/2010 12:05:34 AM)
Estimate Facts Burma Enemy forces continue to withdraw from central Burma. A large concentration of force is detected at Moulmein. Enemy air is still not detected in the AO Our airforce is intact, experienced, and beginning to develop a reserve. Philippines SIGINT indicates the presence of AF BF at Clark and forces at Manila. Davao is now a significant base (6 port 5 airfield). DEI Kendari is the principle base in the east 4 port 6 airfield. Other key bases are Ambon (3 port 4 afld), Alor (1 p, 2 a), Koepang (3p, 4a). SWPAC Rabaul is the main base, 5 port 6 afld. Shortlands 1p 3a. Tulagi has been abandoned. In depth Truk is 7 port 5 afld, Babeldoab 3p 7a, Saipan 3p, 6a. Several other bases in depth appear to be being built as well, but too early to tell. CENTPAC Appears to have been abandoned as an offensive area and forces pulled out. Probably some units in defensive locations on islands still. NORPAC Large forces still on Adak. Sigint indicates planning by other units (Eastern Army) is still being undertaken. Fleet The fleet has lost 1CA, 7 CL and around 20 DD. But is largely intact (losses in PB at 40 is high). Can generate overwhelming force at a point in space for a short time using airpower. Capable of sustained surface combat. Air Is intact and little used. 1 Daitai Betty, 1 Nell, 1-2 Zero operating at Rabaul. 1-2 Daitai Nettie operating Kendari. Lots of nettie and Sally operating around Singapore. Army airforce intact and little used. Deductions Overall Strategy The enemy is on the defensive and developing a series of interlocked bastions. The key ones are Kendari, Davao, Babeldoab, Saipan, Truk. Each of these has 1-2 forward outposts which are mutually supporting and supported by the main bastion. Burma Main defensive position at Moulmein will make approach to Rangoon via sea risky. Limited room for allied manoeuvre. Cannot be broken by forces currently available. DEI Kendari has Ambon, Alor, and maybe Koepang as outlying forward bases. Kendari has at least two Daitai of netties 1 of Zero. The enemy will counter attack from the air and sea any assault on its outlying forward bases. They probably are maintaining a regt-div as a counter attack force, but may rely solely on air and sea power. SWPAC The enemy forces currently on PNG are a distraction and will not be reinforced. Rabaul is held strong on the ground, but will probably not be defended by the air once the Allies put up significant airpower. KB will be used to strike from the open sea flank. Truk and Babeldoab are the main bastions, with Saipan in support. Expect outlying islands to be developed as forward bases. CENTPAC Has largely been abandoned. No enemy forces currently identified, but some islands may still have garrisons. KB will be used as a counter invasion force. Likely some patrol aircraft still in area. NORPAC Indications are a further attack is being planned, but may not eventuate. It will require KB support. FLEET The fleet will now be used to counterattack invasions, in particular KB. KB MAY be sent raiding once the refits have occurred. KB aircraft should now be back at strength, but have lost experience. Air Enemy air has been little used. This is probably because limited increase in 1st generation aircraft frames were undertaken, within increased R&D on second and third generation fighters. These fighters are better defensive platforms, and in the hands of experienced pilots will be difficult for un escorted bombers to handle. As we get closer to the bastions air defence will intensify (as seen over Alor). In short as we anticipated some time ago, they are building a very strong inner perimater. This is getting close to completion as they are pulling in forces. The good times (which were brief) are now almost over... cracking these nuts will take a lot of thought and effort...

jrcar -> RE: Aussies vs Amis - World Defence(no Joe or Nik) (2/22/2010 4:18:34 AM)
Planning Consisderations Enemy Strengths CV's Large intact ground airforce On the defensive. Interior lines Enemy Weakness Large area to defend. Logistics Airforce not as advanced in general. Limited abaility to deal with massed 4E bomber raids... maybe. Friendly Strength Ground airpower, in particular 4E bombers. Plenty of supply/fuel. ability to mass sufficient force for most operations. Increaseing numbers of everything over next 6-12 months. Friendly Weakness CV's comparitively weaker. Operating on exterior lines assault shipping Tankers Fighter range Medium bomber range In general our planning is focussing on using our strengths and avoiding the enemy's. Hence a continental style policy for using our ground based airpower, and in general keeping away from places where they can use the CV's, or at least attempt to neutralise teh CV's through mass ground fighters. For example the Aru operation will be conducted within the range of our CAP of Beufighters and P-38. And once established will bring Ambon within range of our medium bombers and CAP, and will start to isolate Timor from Kendari. Landings will then be done in Timor somewhere... The TB operations aims to bring so much as quickly as possible and then we will get out of dodge (bit like the initial Guadalcanal landings). The aim is to build an airbase then to dominate the area using ground based airpower. We will attempt to go round the new strongpoints they are making in the DEI/Pacific. That will depend on gaining CV superiority at some point... Otherwise we need to create a very big hammer! Cheers Rob

Alfred -> RE: Aussies vs Amis - World Defence(no Joe or Nik) (2/22/2010 4:24:59 AM)
the Allied Commanders, Nice summaries, including the one from the ghost writer in Burma[:D]. A few observations from the peanut gallery (the take no responsibility if things go wrong kind). Burma I would reinforce the point made by Tony regarding maintaining contact with the enemy in Burma. (1) Specifically, as it seems your opponents are turning Moulmein into a festung (it being behind a river line) and by inference not holding Rangoon in strength (a course of action which strikes me as being too negative), you should not overlook the value of capturing Rangoon. With possession of Rangoon, you open up the Burma Road. Not until the additional Allied supply into China via (a) the automatic Burma Road daily supply allowance and (b) the push/pull supply mechanism through the network of Burmese bases becomes available, the idea floated of having US LCUs stationed in China is, IMHO not logistically feasible. (2) I am not so certain that the enemy holding Moulmein will really crimp Allied sea movement into Rangoon. The key is air superiority. Other than Moulmein, the enemy will be restricted in the number of nearby, quality air bases with which it could operate offensive operations against Rangoon. Whereas Rangoon has several nearby quality (at least potentially) interlocking airbases which would be Allied controlled. (3) The capture of Port Blair, IMHO, rates much more highly than the placing of an allied army at Sabang. Without Port Blair, the enemy should not really be in a position to block the Allied SLOC to Rangoon (see preceding point). With an Allied Port Blair (and possibly also the dot of Nicobar) you do set the enemy two coastlines which must be guarded from enemy landings: (a) northern Sumatra - with the threat to the oil fields, (b) southern Burma/north western Malaya - with the threat to cut off the enemy festung at Moulmein. It is always much harder to defend against two dangerous independent threats, than against a single albeit more dangerous threat. (4) With Rangoon and Pegu under allied control, you could consider bypassing the Moulmein festung and sending a recon column to invade northern Thailand at Chiang Mai. Depending on what you discover, a move down to Rahaeng/Laos might be profitable in 1943. Eastern DEI Based on (a) your assessments of enemy festungs and (b) your careful build up of allied infrastructure and force dispositions around the Arafura Sea with an eye towards a late 1942/early 1943 move on Ambon, I think you over estimate the strength of the defences to be overcome. As previously discussed, you have several promising axes to exploit the Allied conquest of Ambon. Currently, there seems to be only one main enemy base on each of these axes, consequently you can bypass much of the enemy's strength and counter attack options. From Ambon you can: (5) drive on Timor/Celebes with a view of going directly for the oil centres of Java/Borneo. This will probably run into the main enemy strength (Kendari/Koepang) but with the string of Allied airbases at the base of the schwerpunkt, will pose a great risk to the deployment of the KB and any enemy counter invasion, (6) drive north into the Moluccas which allows for future Mindanao/Caroline Islands exploitation. This route forces enemy air to operate at long range from its main airfields and can largely be accomplished by island hopping under Allied air power (admittedly after the requisite build up of infrastructure) and across the Allied lake known as the Ceram Sea, (7) go east onto the north coast of Dutch New Guinea to ultimately strike the Marianas from the south in late 1943. By that stage, the KB should be less potent due to wear and tear or fuel shortages. So all in all, I think the enemy curling up into a tight ball is not really either limiting the Allied possibilities (without even mentioning other locations such as the North Pacific etc) nor strength of schwerpunkt because they are ceding the initiative to you without inflicting any serious losses in return. Provided you maintain contact, and I have no doubt that you will, you will always find their vulnerable points. Alfred

anthonykevinluke -> RE: Aussies vs Amis - World Defence(no Joe or Nik) (2/22/2010 8:13:13 AM)
Evening All, Well, at the risk of giving Rob heart failure by posting twice within two days, I thought I'd put down some retrospective 'musings' about our opponents actions. Firstly, I'd state up front that Nik and Joe are quality opponents with a great deal of experience and ability. Also, they are 'Gentlemen' opponents and seem to be great blokes. Rob and I were discussing the game to date and thought that they became a little unstuck in some of their early moves and then seemed to have been 'panicked' by aggressive, but focused, use of allied air. Some areas that they did not fully exploit or in turn allowed us to exploit: Insufficient application of mass - this was the key to their Philippines delay and disasters. It was also evident in their assault on Java where they came from two directions and split their force to try and take east and west at the same time , and thereby arguably delayed both, suffering more casualties and further delay. Overly cautious use of their air power, especially when the first six months is the time when it is at its' strongest and the allies at their weakest. Being very bold, but without the necessary spt/cover in their attacks on Palembang and Ambon. Neutralising Port Moresby then leaving without taking it, thereby letting it recover and do what it did historically! Not doing enough recon on Adak or West Burma before committing to their attacks, and thereby committing insufficient force. Over reacting to allied airpower rather than countering it with their own. Insufficient analysis of the allies strengths and weaknesses; particularly our deficiency in real gnd units and acft replacement rates (especially in Burma!!!), if they had pushed us they might have found just how "hollow" our str really is. We play very realistically, i.e. no Indian units outside India without paying the PP. Rob and I are currently stunned/bemused at their precipitous withdrawal from Burma, and now perhaps even the Gilberts and Solomons. They killed many allied Bns in Malaya, the DEI and east Burma in the first 3 to 4 months with their air, but that is the game engine and the correct use of mass. We did the same to them (by our count 1 x Tk regt, 2 x Arty units, 1x AA Bn, 1x Afld bn, and maybe 1 Bde and HQ) in Burma after we lured them way up the jungle trails before unleashing our carefully saved air assets. Latest patches seem to have really addressed this air to gnd issue, so balance is pretty well restored. But, their reaction has been astounding. Who knows perhaps they are right, only time will tell. But, they have given us a lot of valuable , highly defendable terrain without cost. They seem to be too easily put off by allied 4E bmbr attacks. I know in my last game as Japs against Rob that the counter to his 4E attacks was by massing my ftrs and meeting him head on. Even Oscars applied in numbers of 30- 50 str cause B17's to be lost , and morale quickly drops with the 4E types (as well as maintenance issues), so you just gotta be prepared to take some lumps and use supporting airbases. Our faults have been many but we are content with our progress to date. I suppose the key point to all of the above is to remember that it is from OUR perspective, knowing our strengths and weaknesses and obviously not being fully aware of theirs and/or their perceptions. We all see the world in a different light. We also note the war sure isn't over yet and expect to reap our fair share of floggings and disasters, especially with a fully intact KB (+) still on the field of battle. Please feel free to comment and give us your perceptions. Regards, Tony

Rob Brennan UK -> RE: Aussies vs Amis - World Defence(no Joe or Nik) (2/22/2010 6:49:49 PM)
Hi all , great AAR. Some musing about the japanese reasoning ..ish. Abandoning Burma seems utter madness, as both players must be aware of the allied limitations and your self imposed indian rule (which i applaud ). why ?? are they not contesting air space ? Maybe they have fallen into a 'wonder weapon' trap and by pushing for second and poss third generation fighters early are trying to keep thier pilots alive for the better a/c. On the face of it , this may seem sensible to many people but I feel its a vast under use of thier most valuable assets early war. the Japanese ability to pretty much overwhelm allied air in 42 just hasn't been used. Especially in Burma. Oscars and Zeros are capable of fighting whatever the Commonwealth and US supplied a/c may be there. This has a serious knock on effect on thier on map pilot experience as they 'may' be training up a ton of pilots in the home islands only real combat nets experience gains to get them to elite status. They really did fail to use recon sensible too esp up in Adak. Seems very lazy play as viewed from the safety of the gallery [;)]. By creating what should be the 2nd line of defence by abandoning the historical 1st line they may even have shortened the war for you. anyhoo , enough rambling from me. Keep up the good work , your both an ispiration for us allied players.

Nemo121 -> RE: Aussies vs Amis - World Defence(no Joe or Nik) (2/22/2010 8:25:25 PM)
Rob, it seems utter madness but is it unpredictable? I would suggest no... We are dealing here with the same team which committed troops to Adak without proper recon and then proceeded to slowly reinforce failure never sending quite enough troops to do the job. So, at Adak, they showed a deplorable lack of recon and also a signficant failure to appropriately assess their strategic needs and titrate the forces committed appropriately. They had the strength available to win there but failed to commit it. In so doing they not only failed to take Adak but lost far more fighters than they needed. So, just how much of a surprise is it that they have no failed to recon enough to properly assess the correlation of forces and have, again, failed to correctly titrate the forces committed to the objectives sought ( delaying the Allies far from the heart of the Empire )? I would suggest that when we look at their previous performance it shouldn't come as much of a surprise that they've miscalculated now. What would I choose as a strategic indicator for this failure? I would suggest that if the Allied players look through their past logs of recon over Burma etc they will find no appreciable spike in recon just prior to this decision being made. A spike in recon would have shown an effort by the Japanese to correctly assess the breadth and depth of forces facing them in order to feed their decision-making process. Absent of such a spike only fear and imperfect intel guided their decision-making process and, consequently, they drew the wrong conclusions and are pulling back. I would urge the Allied players to forget about their own weaknesses and push their forces forward as fast as ( or even just a little faster than ) logistically possible. A rapid pursuit could yield even more bases being abandoned now that the enemy appears determined to retreat into some mythical "safe border". Obviously don't push too deep but a few rapid rapier thrusts now could gain bases which would otherwise hold you up for months.

jrcar -> RE: Aussies vs Amis - World Defence(no Joe or Nik) (2/22/2010 10:22:54 PM)
Thanks Guys. Rob they reconed Adak... just not well enough. And they thought that KB would make the difference (and it almost did...) until it had to back off to replenish and we were able to get 70+ fighters in... enough mass to stop the second KB attack. That was the real turning point in the battle. It is important for the Allied players to recognise that a KB attack while devastating is only a temporary thing. As long as you don't loos much then you are ok. I'm actually not sure they have shortened the war. It will take us time to safely close up, in particular in the ocean where their CV's still rule... and that inner arc will be a mongral to penetrate... it won't be until they close up, itedtify the surfaces and therefore the gaps that we will know how to proceed... and we had better be 100% prepped! Nemo thanks as well. I have noticed almost no recon over Burma for months... but they should know that even with the 2 Oz divs and the one US we can only muster around 6 divs total... Overall I agree with your assesment, they have not conducted an analysis of enemy troops, but paniced. They also know that we can't strat bomb until mid 1943 (HR)... but soon we should be able to port bomb :) As we have done so far we will maintain contact, look for gaps, apply force and advance :) I look forwarad to reading their reasoning... I just don't understand it (well I understand them pulling back to the defensible terrain on the Prome line... but further...) Maybe this means they are trying to conserve force here to free forces for Adak... or elsewhere. We aren't too concerned about that as our offensives we are about to launch shoulc change their priorities, and them being mid operation would be a good thing for us. Cheers Rob

Nemo121 -> RE: Aussies vs Amis - World Defence(no Joe or Nik) (2/22/2010 10:39:09 PM)
Rob, I think from what you can see they are transitioning from one stance to another, not just from one operation to another. As to your planning. So, recon-pull as opposed to recon-push then... Don't forget that to exploit the gap recon finds you need to have some cavalry units probing ahead of the main herd. Recon won't hold the gap open by itself. I'm certain you're aware of this but it still bears stating.

jrcar -> RE: Aussies vs Amis - World Defence(no Joe or Nik) (2/23/2010 12:31:00 AM)
Thanks Nemo, yes I agree they are transitioning, actually we noticed this some time ago... and I think they have almost transitioned. Still unsure about Adak. Still concerned about Nik's unpredicatbility. And Joe is cunning an methodical, so interesting things will happen if we go too far too fast... or interesting things won't happen if we don't go fast enough! We are using recon pull where we can establish contact with the enemy (mainly Burma and SWPAC). That is starting to diminish due to the military geography. In the DEI and CENTPAC though we have our own plans, and they are being heavily supported by a recon effort. Aru and TB were chosen very early on as potential targets. Examples of the support are the subs at Kwajalein which have identified the ships pulling out, a key combat indicator, and a bit of a surprise... We have limited recon aircraft at this stage, really only 2 sqn (1 of F4 one of B339). These are supplemented by Dutch B25 (Rabaul) and PBY (Hollianda). B-17 are starting to join the effort in the DEI as we try to work out what is where. Cheers Rob

Cribtop -> RE: Aussies vs Amis - World Defence(no Joe or Nik) (2/23/2010 4:33:43 AM)
Excellent posts and not much to add other than to agree, particularly re Burma and Adak. Only thing I can imagine is that their fear of Allied 4Es and insistence on developing 2nd and 3rd gen fighters before committing the air force has led to irrational retreat. One can argue that they may or may not know you are refusing to commit Indian troops without paying PPs, but then again they could know this if they reconned properly. Two caveats - First, they will be tough to crack in the inner perimeter as you note. Good pilots, modern LBA and a healthy KB make for a solid defense. Second, I'm not criticizing them as players, no doubt I would hash things up worse. One countercaveat - The inner perimeter defenses will be irrelevant if you advance into the DEI under LBA cover and smash the oil fields. This is especially true if you can find a base on the Burma axis that can threaten Palembang and Singers. In fact, if jrcar moves on Timor/Celebes first and, after about 3-4 weeks of engaging all Japanese resistance here, Tony then goes all out to get within bombing range of Palembang/Singers.... hmmm.

jrcar -> RE: Aussies vs Amis - World Defence(no Joe or Nik) (2/24/2010 12:06:31 AM)
Again thanks for the comments. The first lot of troops are loaded for the Aru op and are going around Cape York, The second lot are loading, and the warships are gathering (1 BB , 4 CA, 6 CL). The various convoys will merge in the Gulf of Carpentaria, the fighters for CAP will move into position, the convoy's will move up and the attack will be on... probably 3-4 more turns (week game time). LRCAP will be initially provided by 1 Sqn F4F3 and 1 F4F4, then 25 P-38 and 16 Beufighters will take over for the landings themselves at max effort. The enemy will get through this, and I expect to loose ships, but hopefully the LRCAP and the AA fire will break up the attacks. The landing will be made by: 8th Marines D Det Port Svcs (with another to be flown in) 1st USN Seabees 804 EAB 94th Cst AA (two more AA regts will be moved in later) 101 USN BF 6RAA Cst Defence (6" guns). I have 4 AP and 6 AKA supported by 6 fast xAP, APD and DD's as the landing force. The use of AO and AKA should get things unloaded quickly... I hope! Should get 10-15k of supply ashore. Aim will be to get the airfield up to 2 so that fighters can escort an Avenger Sqn :) As our first offensive operation under AE it is a learning experiance. At least the target isn't defended, just the counterattack to handle. I may try bombing Ambon with a B-17 group just prior to the landings... Cheers Rob

jrcar -> RE: Aussies vs Amis - World Defence(no Joe or Nik) (2/24/2010 1:21:34 AM)
30-31 Jul 1942 Subs Lots of attacks but only one bang on an xAK. Moving subs back into the DEI area to keep his aircraft ocupied, and to support the upcoming landings. Burma Not much happening, we have caught up with the Japanese rearguard, and may get to cut some off (I will post a map soon). DEI I set the B-17 to Naval attack for a rest instaed of bombing Alor. 18 then launch against a Japanese force cleaning up dot bases... not one hit was scored from 8k :( SWPAC As noted the transports are moving for the Aru operation. I am at Lae now with about 9AV, but short of supply. Some is being flown in. Should attack next turn. Japanese aircraft are largely grounded, but some fly against a lonely xAKL unloading at Milne Bay, no hits are scored and the supply is almost all ashore. Milne Bay shoud get to level 1 port next turn. SOPAC Ndeni lvl 1 port. Aflds being built next. NORPAC Our BB's hit causing light to moderate damage. The normal ground and air bombardments. Going to attack again next turn. Cheers Rob

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