Non-historic first turn with Dec 7th surprise? (Full Version)

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CEDeaton -> Non-historic first turn with Dec 7th surprise? (8/12/2009 8:48:21 PM)

I just started a PBEM GC with a non-historic first turn and Dec 7th surprise set to ON.

After investing the better part of a week in my first-turn setup, the Allies were seemingly unrestricted and were able to completely empty their ports of any meaningful target during their first turn. What's up with that? I'd say that kind of first turn for the Allies represents anything but a Dec 7th surprise (unless the intent was to be ironic!).

While I like the ability to do this as an option if Dec 7th surprise is turned off, I'd certainly never even consider a game that took that away from the Japanese, unless I wanted to see just how FUBAR it was possible to make the Japanese situation from day one.

Is this something that was overlooked in testing? It seems unimaginable that such a thing would have been missed.

Is there any discussion about this being patched so it behaves more like the original Dec 7th surprise in vanila WITP, or is this meant to only be addressed through "house rules"?




herwin -> RE: Non-historic first turn with Dec 7th surprise? (8/12/2009 9:00:04 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: CraigDeaton

I just started a PBEM GC with a non-historic first turn and Dec 7th surprise set to ON.

After investing the better part of a week in my first-turn setup, the Allies were seemingly unrestricted and were able to completely empty their ports of any meaningful target during their first turn. What's up with that? I'd say that kind of first turn for the Allies represents anything but a Dec 7th surprise (unless the intent was to be ironic!).

While I like the ability to do this as an option if Dec 7th surprise is turned off, I'd certainly never even consider a game that took that away from the Japanese, unless I wanted to see just how FUBAR it was possible to make the Japanese situation from day one.

Is this something that was overlooked in testing? It seems unimaginable that such a thing would have been missed.

Is there any discussion about this being patched so it behaves more like the original Dec 7th surprise in vanila WITP, or is this meant to only be addressed through "house rules"?




House rules. Neither Manila nor Pearl should have been caught with their pants down.



CEDeaton -> RE: Non-historic first turn with Dec 7th surprise? (8/12/2009 9:07:43 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: herwin
House rules. Neither Manila nor Pearl should have been caught with their pants down.


Perhaps we shouldn't have been caught with our pants down, but that's a counter-factual argument, since we were.

One of the best things about the original game was the ability to change the initial Japanese battle plan up a bit, while still allowing the Japanese to achieve surprise. So it begs the question as to why we kept the toggle for Dec 7th surprise when it can't really be achieved except in the stock setup?

Matrix Devs - Chalk up one vote for a return to the way things were, in this regard. The rest of what I've seen looks damn good though.



vonSchnitter -> RE: Non-historic first turn with Dec 7th surprise? (8/12/2009 9:16:52 PM)

Well CD,

I guess "herwin" choose to be ambiguous - probably due to his stated carreer as an "Computational neuroethologist" - or being boozed.

Just the simple things:

a) Non historical 1st means: BOTH sides in a PBM can make adjustments to their forces pretty much as they like.
b) Surprise just means: for the first move special rules apply - like allied air assets ar caught on the ground etc.
c) Both rules are in no way linked.

The ai has no way to take advantage of a - a PBM player might.
May I recommend to have a close look at the rule book ? Sounds condescending, I know.
But in this case it is as simple as that.

If you need house rules for a scenariao like this, have a look at the WitP forum.

Cheers



ChickenOfTheSea -> RE: Non-historic first turn with Dec 7th surprise? (8/12/2009 9:27:39 PM)

This is a very important issue for opponents to discuss before starting a PBEM. Non-historical means non-historical for both sides, so you need to agree on how much flexibility each side has in the opening.



CEDeaton -> RE: Non-historic first turn with Dec 7th surprise? (8/12/2009 9:29:25 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: vonSchnitter

Well CD,

I guess "herwin" choose to be ambiguous - probably due to his stated carreer as an "Computational neuroethologist" - or being boozed.

Just the simple things:

a) Non historical 1st means: BOTH sides in a PBM can make adjustments to their forces pretty much as they like.
b) Surprise just means: for the first move special rules apply - like allied air assets ar caught on the ground etc.
c) Both rules are in no way linked.

The ai has no way to take advantage of a - a PBM player might.
May I recommend to have a close look at the rule book ? Sounds condescending, I know.
But in this case it is as simple as that.

If you need house rules for a scenariao like this, have a look at the WitP forum.

Cheers




I saw that in the manual. It's rather silent to what ships can and cannot do. One might assume that if a plane can't run a mission, getting battleships underway would be even more impossible. Apparently, this is wrong on both counts. I offer as exhibit A a snipet from the Combat report:

Allied aircraft
F4F-3 Wildcat x 5
SBD-3 Dauntless x 37
TBD-1 Devastator x 12


Allied aircraft losses
SBD-3 Dauntless: 1 destroyed, 10 damaged
TBD-1 Devastator: 1 destroyed, 4 damaged

Japanese Ships
CV Shokaku, Bomb hits 3, heavy fires
CA Tone
CV Zuikaku, Bomb hits 10, heavy fires, heavy damage

I guess that line about "the Allies will launch no airstrikes" is also an error. [X(]



vonSchnitter -> RE: Non-historic first turn with Dec 7th surprise? (8/12/2009 9:51:55 PM)

Well Craig,

do not get me wrong please - but it looks like you are quite new to this type of game.

Do not feel bad about it - just imagine that any of the "know alls", big post count chaps - including me, even though I do not fall in any of the categories - made the same sort of mistakes or rather false assumptions as you did - when they started. Many moons before ...

And of course, the manual - and to some extend the game testing - caters for those old hands familiar with things for a decade or more.
Which does not mean the manual is right - all the time. Far from it ..

Nevertheless because of this:

Is this attack on IJN Carriers in the afternoon pulse ? If so, it is fine. It just should be explained in the rule book explixitly.
If not - you have a VERY valid issue.




herwin -> RE: Non-historic first turn with Dec 7th surprise? (8/12/2009 10:03:14 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: vonSchnitter

Well Craig,

do not get me wrong please - but it looks like you are quite new to this type of game.

Do not feel bad about it - just imagine that any of the "know alls", big post count chaps - including me, even though I do not fall in any of the categories - made the same sort of mistakes or rather false assumptions as you did - when they started. Many moons before ...

And of course, the manual - and to some extend the game testing - caters for those old hands familiar with things for a decade or more.
Which does not mean the manual is right - all the time. Far from it ..

Nevertheless because of this:

Is this attack on IJN Carriers in the afternoon pulse ? If so, it is fine. It just should be explained in the rule book explixitly.
If not - you have a VERY valid issue.




The Japanese expected something of the sort to happen--they didn't expect to get away scot free. They were running the op on a shoestring--at one time in the planning they considered scuttling the Hiryu and Soryu because they couldn't figure out how to provide enough fuel to get them back home afterwards. Anything that produces a bit of variation during the Japanese happy time is probably a good idea. There should be the flavour that the Japanese were walking a tight-rope, and eventually fell off in June 1942.

That's why I came up with my War Plan Orange limited war rules. They change the dynamics of the game at the cost of not doing a Pearl Harbour. Now the USN has to force things and may walk into a big battle when not ready for it.



vonSchnitter -> RE: Non-historic first turn with Dec 7th surprise? (8/12/2009 10:19:03 PM)

sorry herwin,

this one does not need any historical extemporations.

Things are very clear and simple:

If the IJN carriers get attacked by USN carrier planes in the morning pulse - the composition of the attackers suggest a carrier based force - the rule book is wrong. Simple case. The surprise part.

If the IJN CVs get attacked in the afternoon pulse - all is fine.

In this case the jap player got too close to PH (by old WitP standards)- to avoid op losses/increase his strike force intentionally - without regard to allied carriers in the vicinity and their ability to close in and strike back. (Did not test in AE to be honest)

Or - the reaction thing has struck. If so - we all owe one to CD - because the old hands would have taken ages to find this.

Your argument may have some value if surprise is off - never tested or played it.






CEDeaton -> RE: Non-historic first turn with Dec 7th surprise? (8/12/2009 10:28:05 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: vonSchnitter

Well Craig,

do not get me wrong please - but it looks like you are quite new to this type of game.



Hmmm. Wargaming since 1975, computer gaming since 1983, bought UV, WITP and WPO practically the day they came out. Yeah, I'm a noob! [;)]

Just NEVER saw anything like that on Dec 7th. I certainly saw no reason to expect it with Dec 7th surprise set to on. It was an afternoon attack though. Guess I just rolled snake-eyes!

It's always pilot error. Sometimes the idiot just doesn't know how to fly a broken plane.



Mynok -> RE: Non-historic first turn with Dec 7th surprise? (8/12/2009 10:41:01 PM)


If I'm Japanese I love to see Allied ships at sea when KB arrives. It means a lot more sinkings and less loss of my planes and pilots.

As far as afternoon attacks, well, the Witp AI was too stupid for that, and no PBEM guy is going to risk his Allied carriers in the face of KB that early in the game. It's not that it couldn't happen before....just not likely for the reasons I stated.

Now, you'd best expect an aggressive AI.



vonSchnitter -> RE: Non-historic first turn with Dec 7th surprise? (8/12/2009 10:42:03 PM)

Sorry Craig,

I just went by your post count and drew some assumptions - I hope you noticed I at least tried to handle a percieved noobs concerns with as much TLC as possible ? [:D]

Anyway: Did you change the destination hex of KB ? If so which one - if I may ask.

Some of us old and hardened WitP PBMers ([8D]) still believe that the KB is out of danger if left unaltered..

By the way who is your PBM partner - just to laud him - and avoid him ...[:D])



Mynok -> RE: Non-historic first turn with Dec 7th surprise? (8/12/2009 10:44:50 PM)


Guh! I just realized this WAS a PBEM. That's a gutsy opponent indeed.......

Hope you set Naval Attack on your carriers for Dec 8th. [:D]



vonSchnitter -> RE: Non-historic first turn with Dec 7th surprise? (8/12/2009 10:46:04 PM)

Sorry Mynok,

I know you little black guys have special skills but:

look at the disposition of the KB aircraft in AE before your greet any naval opposition.
Tell me about your findings - so I do not need to look myselves. [:D]

And yes, the allied player in this PBM has guts - plenty.

Better to know about the possibility of this, right ?

oops - the martians beat me [:'(]



CEDeaton -> RE: Non-historic first turn with Dec 7th surprise? (8/12/2009 10:51:51 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: vonSchnitter

Sorry Craig,

I just went by your post count and drew some assumptions - I hope you noticed I at least tried to handle a percieved noobs concerns with as much TLC as possible ? [:D]

Anyway: Did you change the destination hex of KB ? If so which one - if I may ask.

Some of us old and hardened WitP PBMers ([8D]) still believe that the KB is out of danger if left unaltered..

By the way who is your PBM partner - just to laud him - and avoid him ...[:D])


In the past I'd have kept this little surprise to myself, but since it now appears pointless... What I did was I split off Shokaku and Zuikaku and a small escort and hit San Diego. I was willing to trade several BBs in order to take out the Saratoga. Unfortunately, since he was able to sortie everything with the revised turn one rules, it wasn't even in the port (obviously) and this battle actually took place near San Clemente island.



mjk428 -> RE: Non-historic first turn with Dec 7th surprise? (8/12/2009 11:04:06 PM)

Best thread ever.



vonSchnitter -> RE: Non-historic first turn with Dec 7th surprise? (8/12/2009 11:09:35 PM)

As far as ceative goes: Pretty impressive.
Just change the detached CVs airgroup missions - naval attack, with port attack as secondary.
And look at the CV airgroup sizes.

I am just glad to have smelled the afternoon strike thing - else you would have got me.
Never heard of a move like this.



CEDeaton -> RE: Non-historic first turn with Dec 7th surprise? (8/12/2009 11:17:51 PM)

I specialize in unheard-of moves. So does my opponent. We've been playing PBEM games for about 10 years now and it's seldom a dull moment.



vonSchnitter -> RE: Non-historic first turn with Dec 7th surprise? (8/12/2009 11:21:18 PM)

Just one more - just out of curiosity:

Warp type moves are supposed to be reserved in AE to some specific TFs in Non-Historic openings. Right ?

So the rest of you carriers is now somewhere close to Etorufo - the point of departure ?

Am I missing something ?




CEDeaton -> RE: Non-historic first turn with Dec 7th surprise? (8/12/2009 11:29:51 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: vonSchnitter

Just one more - just out of curiosity:

Warp type moves are supposed to be reserved in AE to some specific TFs in Non-Historic openings. Right ?

So the rest of you carriers is now somewhere close to Etorufo - the point of departure ?

Am I missing something ?




Take a bit of shuffling, but all four of those task forces will warp, so you can make up multiple Air Combat TFs by changing the TF type on one of the other three to Escort and then adding a carrier.

I'm giving away entirely too many secrets here...



vonSchnitter -> RE: Non-historic first turn with Dec 7th surprise? (8/12/2009 11:53:25 PM)

Very interesting, Mate.

To be honest, I am not sure whether you:
a - care to set me up - one way or the other - to take a pot shot on the noob thing - fine by me
b - care not to share your "secrets" by use of a smoke screen
c - you are up to something worth a close look - re reshufling TF numbers

If C is the correct answer - I am sure you will have made a dent in AE history, proving the rules are leaky.

I leave it to you, to opt for the benefit of all concerned if c. is right.
Or just stop bragging.

or send a PM and we go from there.



CEDeaton -> RE: Non-historic first turn with Dec 7th surprise? (8/13/2009 12:21:54 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: vonSchnitter

Very interesting, Mate.

To be honest, I am not sure whether you:
a - care to set me up - one way or the other - to take a pot shot on the noob thing - fine by me
b - care not to share your "secrets" by use of a smoke screen
c - you are up to something worth a close look - re reshufling TF numbers

If C is the correct answer - I am sure you will have made a dent in AE history, proving the rules are leaky.

I leave it to you, to opt for the benefit of all concerned if c. is right.
Or just stop bragging.

or send a PM and we go from there.



Hey, please don't get me wrong. I'm just having a little fun here. The noob comment struck me as REALLY funny since I've seldom met anyone that has played games as long as I have (at least anyone who will admit it). I wasn't offended at all. I know I don't post a lot - too busy playing, most times. So I just "lurk" and see what's going on with the games I like.

I really don't understand what you meant by your comment about the smoke screen (probably it's a local slang thing), but suffice to say, if one fancies themseleves a cunning player, it's best to keep at least some cards close to the vest and my comment about giving away secrets was half in jest, but half serious as well.

That being said, I've really opened my kimono in this thread. I got bitch-slapped, plain and simple. In this case, some changes in the rules seem to have set me up for it, but that's OK. War tends to slap people who don't expect it.

My whole purpose with this thread originally was to be sure that was what Matrix intended. If so, I think it's a shame because the game can now model fewer potential opening moves than could have been done in vanilla WITP and, I think, we all suffer a loss from that. Overall, however, I believe the game itself is a vast improvement over stock WITP, so I can live with a setback here and there.

If I appeared to be bragging, I can assure you, that was not my intent. Not sure how anyone that just got a carrier damn-near sunk on Dec 7th could even attempt to brag. [:D]




vonSchnitter -> RE: Non-historic first turn with Dec 7th surprise? (8/13/2009 12:56:03 AM)

Well Craig,

I am fine with all you say. No problem.

Let me ask you this - probably your chance to earn AE fame and the respect of any IJ player:

Did you find a way to split off carriers from KB and have them "warp" to a specific location ?
Did you find a way to have the reminder of KB "warp" to a specific location ?

Just simple questions ?

In case both answers are yes - either in the forum or in a pm - do you mind, if the powers that be, get a chance to review their setup with your help ?
At that time I am out of the cicle and your secrets are safe.



Nomad -> RE: Non-historic first turn with Dec 7th surprise? (8/13/2009 1:50:09 AM)

To be quite honest vonSchnitter, he gave all the info you needed in post 20.

Excellent idea CD, and if you had put your San Diego strike force on Naval Attack / Port Attack you would have had a real victory parade. [:)]



Freedom205 -> RE: Non-historic first turn with Dec 7th surprise? (8/13/2009 2:14:54 AM)

That was entirely possible in WITP also,(splitting up TFs and still being able to warp) but havnt had the option of trying it out in AE as I am waiting for a mixup in the promo code to sort out so I can buy this wonderful gem  ;  )



Nomad -> RE: Non-historic first turn with Dec 7th surprise? (8/13/2009 2:21:28 AM)

The difference is in WitP every IJN TF could warp speed on turn 1, but in AE, only those that are identified in the scenario file are capable. That means that a bit of slight of hand is needed to do what CD did.



Mynok -> RE: Non-historic first turn with Dec 7th surprise? (8/13/2009 2:33:36 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: CraigDeaton

Hey, please don't get me wrong. I'm just having a little fun here. The noob comment struck me as REALLY funny since I've seldom met anyone that has played games as long as I have (at least anyone who will admit it). I wasn't offended at all. I know I don't post a lot - too busy playing, most times. So I just "lurk" and see what's going on with the games I like.


Heh..I've been playing close to as long as you. Started in 77 with Tactics II then Squad Leader. [:D]

Keep on keeping on. Sounds like you know how to have fun with these games, and that's really what it is all about. [:D]



johnbmac -> RE: Non-historic first turn with Dec 7th surprise? (8/13/2009 3:06:32 AM)

USN in Strategy and Tactics Magazine got me started when I was 12 years old in 1971.

Strategy & Tactics magazine #29.

USN deals with the air, land and sea warfare in the Pacific between 1941 and 1943. Each hex represents over 200 miles. Each turn represents a week's operations. Land unit counters represent divisions or regiments. Air units represent multiples of 10 planes. Virtually the entire Pacific is shown, from east of Hawaii to west of Java. Across this wide expanse, naval units (individual aircraft carriers, groups of everything else) fight in one of the most complex campaigns in history. The air, land and naval forces all operated under different conditions. There are five different Combat Results tables used to accomodate everything from torpedo attacks to bayonet charges. The CRT's represent abstract battle actions. There are three "campaign" games plus three shorter "mini" scenarios.

Game Equipment: one 22 x 28" map, 400 1/2" counters, rulesheet (folding "roadmap" variety), games charts & tables.



http://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/8727



CEDeaton -> RE: Non-historic first turn with Dec 7th surprise? (8/13/2009 3:30:49 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: johnbmac

USN in Strategy and Tactics Magazine got me started when I was 12 years old in 1971.

Strategy & Tactics magazine #29.

USN deals with the air, land and sea warfare in the Pacific between 1941 and 1943. Each hex represents over 200 miles. Each turn represents a week's operations. Land unit counters represent divisions or regiments. Air units represent multiples of 10 planes. Virtually the entire Pacific is shown, from east of Hawaii to west of Java. Across this wide expanse, naval units (individual aircraft carriers, groups of everything else) fight in one of the most complex campaigns in history. The air, land and naval forces all operated under different conditions. There are five different Combat Results tables used to accomodate everything from torpedo attacks to bayonet charges. The CRT's represent abstract battle actions. There are three "campaign" games plus three shorter "mini" scenarios.

Game Equipment: one 22 x 28" map, 400 1/2" counters, rulesheet (folding "roadmap" variety), games charts & tables.



http://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/8727



Holy crap! They're gtting $81 for that game?! I've got about three old boxes of board games in the attic that I'm gonna start listing on e-Bay next week. I now know how to continue my game addiction after getting hit with a 4% pay cut last week.

Gotta love this economy, eh?



herwin -> RE: Non-historic first turn with Dec 7th surprise? (8/13/2009 1:27:44 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: CraigDeaton


quote:

ORIGINAL: vonSchnitter

Sorry Craig,

I just went by your post count and drew some assumptions - I hope you noticed I at least tried to handle a percieved noobs concerns with as much TLC as possible ? [:D]

Anyway: Did you change the destination hex of KB ? If so which one - if I may ask.

Some of us old and hardened WitP PBMers ([8D]) still believe that the KB is out of danger if left unaltered..

By the way who is your PBM partner - just to laud him - and avoid him ...[:D])


In the past I'd have kept this little surprise to myself, but since it now appears pointless... What I did was I split off Shokaku and Zuikaku and a small escort and hit San Diego. I was willing to trade several BBs in order to take out the Saratoga. Unfortunately, since he was able to sortie everything with the revised turn one rules, it wasn't even in the port (obviously) and this battle actually took place near San Clemente island.


Well, SD is closer than PH, but with PH, the KB had Truk as an emergency stop if things went wrong. I'm not sure what you would do for SD.



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