Allied AI Cheats!! (Full Version)

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doc smith -> Allied AI Cheats!! (8/19/2009 4:17:12 AM)

As if the Allies don't have enough of an advantage over the poor sons of heaven, playing scenario 001 as Japan, around 12 Dec I loaded the game to look at what the AI is doing. I was shocked to see units listed as West Coast (R) are now loaded on tnps and headed toward Hawaii!!! Still listed as West Coast units, not reassigned to a non-restricted HQ.

Wassup??



Crimguy -> RE: Allied AI Cheats!! (8/19/2009 5:10:34 AM)

Interesting - anyone else see this?



wdolson -> RE: Allied AI Cheats!! (8/19/2009 6:25:04 AM)

The AI ignores HQ restrictions.  The original game did some similar things too.

Bill



Flying Tiger -> RE: Allied AI Cheats!! (8/19/2009 6:50:57 AM)

if this was the extent of the AI 'cheats' i'd be happy! This sort of thing just gives the poor old machine some hope - without screwing the gameplay at all. Its unlimited ammo/supply/etc that bugs me a bit.



CV Zuikaku -> RE: Allied AI Cheats!! (8/19/2009 9:40:18 AM)

What? Is the cheat so extended that AI TFs have unlimited ammo and fuel? and that you can't blockade ,isolate and starve bases? I don't like that kind of cheating... i don't like when AI teleports ships all arround the Pacific, but this is killing strategy... what's use of war of attrition if you can not starve some garrison or expect that after 3 surface engagements AI TF is low on ammo? [:@]



Sardaukar -> RE: Allied AI Cheats!! (8/19/2009 9:53:22 AM)

Is this on Historical difficultu level? I also think that AI units will get automatically 100% prep points for targets on Hard difficulty and above.



CV Zuikaku -> RE: Allied AI Cheats!! (8/19/2009 10:04:20 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Sardaukar

Is this on Historical difficultu level? I also think that AI units will get automatically 100% prep points for targets on Hard difficulty and above.


I'm OK with free PPs, but unlimited fuel, ammo for ships and supplies for every base along with "project Philadelphia" ships is a bit too much...



Sardaukar -> RE: Allied AI Cheats!! (8/19/2009 10:14:22 AM)

Yea, I am not happy if that happens on Historical difficulty. Maybe ship fuel I can accept, but ammo is different thing.



Valgua -> RE: Allied AI Cheats!! (8/19/2009 11:17:03 AM)

I concur. Cheating is ok insofar it doersn't disrupt strategy. Let's hope that this does not apply to historical difficulty. 



doc smith -> RE: Allied AI Cheats!! (8/23/2009 4:26:00 AM)

Found another 'cheat':

I've had 2 Brit or Dutch DDs (with pissy little 4" or 4.7" guns) go toe to toe against a Japanese TF with 4 Mogamis and some DDs at night, the Japanese "cross the T" and the Allied fleet survives the action after getting ONE friggin' hit!!



Sheytan -> RE: Allied AI Cheats!! (8/23/2009 4:39:25 AM)

It isnt just the Allied AI. I asked a question about this before and never really got a satisfactory reply.

I had four surface TFs engage the same IJN surface task force over a single turn, while my CA's showed significant depeletion of thier main battery ammo, this, in a single engagement, the IJN CA's in the enemy TF continued to employ main battery fire as if it wasnt depleting at all, by the time the fourth allied TF engaged I was still getting clobbered by the IJN TFs main battery guns.

I am playing the historical setting for the Campaign game. Not hard etc. This isnt good if the AI is in fact not depleting its ammo stores.

quote:

ORIGINAL: doc smith

Found another 'cheat':

I've had 2 Brit or Dutch DDs (with pissy little 4" or 4.7" guns) go toe to toe against a Japanese TF with 4 Mogamis and some DDs at night, the Japanese "cross the T" and the Allied fleet survives the action after getting ONE friggin' hit!!




pmelheck1 -> RE: Allied AI Cheats!! (8/23/2009 5:12:59 AM)

I don't think it's the Allied AI as it's the AI in general no matter which side you play.  I know that the AI for it's torp equiped air squadrons don't need HQ's like players do.  In my game there is a group of bettys flying from a level 4 field only attacking with torpedoes even though theirs no HQ at the base.  I know that I'm being out produced currently with Aircraft.  Even when the F6F comes online I will only be out produced some 3 to 1.  A total of some 2500 betty bombers were produced during the war however in my game 2200 will be produced by the end of 1942 alone.  I believe I am being out produced in ground units (tanks, squads, ect).  Industry also expands for the Japanese AI with no damage apparently.  Who knew Japan out produced the U.S. during WW2



Jonathan Pollard -> RE: Allied AI Cheats!! (8/23/2009 6:42:29 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: doc smith

Found another 'cheat':

I've had 2 Brit or Dutch DDs (with pissy little 4" or 4.7" guns) go toe to toe against a Japanese TF with 4 Mogamis and some DDs at night, the Japanese "cross the T" and the Allied fleet survives the action after getting ONE friggin' hit!!

The 'cheat' may be unintentional. Testing has confirmed that in cruise speed vs. mission speed TFs, the mission speed TFs have an overwhelming advantage.



RoryAndersonCDT -> RE: Allied AI Cheats!! (8/23/2009 6:56:16 AM)

Why would ships at mission speed have an overwhelming advantage historically?



Jonathan Pollard -> RE: Allied AI Cheats!! (8/23/2009 7:05:52 AM)

No reason whatsoever that I can think of, which is why the general consensus on this forum is that the advantage is a bug, or at the very least a "feature" that should be eliminated with the next patch.



doc smith -> RE: Allied AI Cheats!! (8/26/2009 3:05:58 AM)

Japanese TF was at mission speed.



doc smith -> RE: Allied AI Cheats!! (8/26/2009 3:13:12 AM)

Another pair of cheats:

1. Far East AF units (B-17s) have a (R) for restricted movement on their HQ but have redeployed to Soerabaja. Similar to West Coast AAF units boarding ships (as (R) HQ units) for travel across the Pacific.

2. B-17s flying from airbases size 1 or 2 with 3 or 4 times as many planes as available air support.

3. Aircraft flying from bases with no av spt or even no airfields.

4. Australia Command forces travelling by sea to Moresby or Milne Bay.

I'm up for a challenge but if I can't move my (R) units by ship, the AI should not be able to either. The whole raison d'etre for (R) was to recapture: a) inability to support units outside the host country (China, USSR) or b) IRL fears of enemy attacks requiring forces to remain in place in case of invasion (e.g., West Coast or Indian forces)



Zebedee -> RE: Allied AI Cheats!! (8/26/2009 3:17:13 AM)

The AI couldn't use Political Points in WitP either. I don't think this AI cheat is particularly problematic (I only play vs AI). It certainly wasn't in WitP. Perhaps AE may turn out to be different but I'm not starting a full campaign game til patch 1 so will hold judgement until after my first real campaign game.



Rexor -> RE: Allied AI Cheats!! (8/26/2009 4:09:20 AM)

All of this is distressing indeed. I believe that the trend toward AI cheats has become too entrenched now to counter. Reminds me of HOI2, where the AI had unlimited naval and air range, negating the idea of recreating WWII in a game in the first place.

But one of the reasons I bought AE is that the AI was moddable. Anyone interested in tackling the job of modding an AI opponent that's more realistic and still challenging? Time-consuming, to be sure. But surely it's possible with time...?



Cribtop -> RE: Allied AI Cheats!! (8/26/2009 4:24:11 AM)

Do we have any comment from the devs on unlimited ammo & supply for the AI? If so, is this only a feature of the harder settings or does it apply across the board. If the AI doesn't have to re-supply isolated LCUs it would radically alter my strategy in my current game.



Zebedee -> RE: Allied AI Cheats!! (8/26/2009 4:47:55 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rexor
But one of the reasons I bought AE is that the AI was moddable. Anyone interested in tackling the job of modding an AI opponent that's more realistic and still challenging? Time-consuming, to be sure. But surely it's possible with time...?


After a couple of campaigns, I'll be doing some scripting. But I doubt that the underlying behaviour patterns needed to compensate for the AI's inability to plan on the scale required will be totally done away with during my lifetime in any game of this scope or complexity. If you want a competitive game in AE, then I think you're just going to have to accept AI cheats or switch to PBEM. I can appreciate that it brings its fair share of 'wtf?' moments, but it's something players of any game just have to accept. AI scripting can cover up a lot, but the fundamental problem is that the AI cannot plan and forcing it to use rules which will cripple it would be a step back and undo much of the benefits of the excellent scripting work the AE devs have done.

edit: Just to give some idea of what is required for an AI to be competitive at a reasonable level for the much less complex game of Go - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computer_Go



Rexor -> RE: Allied AI Cheats!! (8/26/2009 5:01:41 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Zebedee

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rexor
But one of the reasons I bought AE is that the AI was moddable. Anyone interested in tackling the job of modding an AI opponent that's more realistic and still challenging? Time-consuming, to be sure. But surely it's possible with time...?


After a couple of campaigns, I'll be doing some scripting. But I doubt that the underlying behaviour patterns needed to compensate for the AI's inability to plan on the scale required will be totally done away with during my lifetime in any game of this scope or complexity. If you want a competitive game in AE, then I think you're just going to have to accept AI cheats or switch to PBEM. I can appreciate that it brings its fair share of 'wtf?' moments, but it's something players of any game just have to accept. AI scripting can cover up a lot, but the fundamental problem is that the AI cannot plan and forcing it to use rules which will cripple it would be a step back and undo much of the benefits of the excellent scripting work the AE devs have done.

edit: Just to give some idea of what is required for an AI to be competitive at a reasonable level for the much less complex game of Go - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computer_Go


To be sure, I don't expect a cheat-less AI. I just think it's pointless to advertise an AI on a game only to give players a computer opponent that isn't playing the same game. I also think the widespread defeatism regarding capable AIs has gone too far. Why not try to work out a solution rather than simply accept that no capable AI is possible in a computer strategy game?

And the bottom line is that no game of this scale will ever attract a majority of players who play via pbem. The majority will always purchase to play vs. AI. Something has to give--either the bottleneck obstructing thinking about coding AI opponents will open up, or historical computer gaming will die. I don't turn to my computer for interaction with other people. I have friends for that, and my schedule is too erratic to afford more than a couple of turns every two months. Sometimes I even have to stop it altogether for months. That's why I indulge PC games at all, because I can do it at a schedule I shape at my leisure. This is the reality for the majority of historical gamers, and nothing will change that. Computers, after all, open up opportunities rather than limit them. So why not rise to the challenge, even if it takes a long time? Stranger things have happened.



bradfordkay -> RE: Allied AI Cheats!! (8/26/2009 5:20:43 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Baloogan

Why would ships at mission speed have an overwhelming advantage historically?


Why would any TF go into combat at cruise speed?


"I also think the widespread defeatism regarding capable AIs has gone too far."

I think that there are some unrealistic expectations as well... This game is infinitely more complex than chess, and the time to create an AI that doesn't need some assistance would cost big money, running the price of a game with as small a customer base as WITP into the stratosphere.

I don't like the idea of the AI getting unlimited ammo, but then I remember the KB sailing back and forth across the Java Sea without launching any attacks in my last stock WITP AI game. Why didn't it launch any attacks? Because it was out of sorties...

In six months you guys will be up on the nuances of the game and the AI will be merely challenging at that point (or so we hope) instead of a "cheatin SOB".



Scott_USN -> RE: Allied AI Cheats!! (8/26/2009 6:16:34 AM)

The most annoying yet even still acceptable AI cheat is the Star Trek Warp Drive engines [:D]

I love it still though it has to cheat come on. Let them ignore restrictions we are under it needs it!!



Scott_USN -> RE: Allied AI Cheats!! (8/26/2009 6:18:16 AM)

With that said the AI is good and fun. I have already got my money back and I quit my GC in June 1942 to wait for a patch.

Taps foot patiently... ok not patient but I still tap my foot.



Sheytan -> RE: Allied AI Cheats!! (8/26/2009 8:37:28 AM)

Why dosnt the AI do a ammo check and return to port to replenish? I dont get that. Assuming it in fact has unlimited stores...how hard would it be to code a check and compell the AI to replenish?

In my humble opinion this might mitigate some of the problems. Hell since its main gun battery that typically depletes quickest, all it needs to check is that one item no?



Sardaukar -> RE: Allied AI Cheats!! (8/26/2009 8:52:40 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Sheytan

Why dosnt the AI do a ammo check and return to port to replenish? I dont get that. Assuming it in fact has unlimited stores...how hard would it be to code a check and compell the AI to replenish?

In my humble opinion this might mitigate some of the problems. Hell since its main gun battery that typically depletes quickest, all it needs to check is that one item no?


Seconded!



myros -> RE: Allied AI Cheats!! (8/26/2009 10:58:25 AM)

Agreed, sometimes all you have to do is simulate an event ... ie even if you dont NEED to replenish in order to simulate acurrate behaviour you create the appearance of it. In this case would be something like a random timer of between 1 - 3 months at the end of which the TF has to go to a major port. Much easier to create than a true dynamic ai, but creates the illusion needed.

The other thing, you can go further and say if the ai needs help you give it more than the player ie allow double the sorties, fuel, supplies whatever.

IMO the way of giving unlimited anything to an AI is a mistake, it kills the games credibility and reduces startegic options significantly. There are ALWAYS other ways around scripting problems, always.



TheTomDude -> RE: Allied AI Cheats!! (8/26/2009 12:03:28 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: myros

IMO the way of giving unlimited anything to an AI is a mistake, it kills the games credibility and reduces startegic options significantly.


/signed




Andy Mac -> RE: Allied AI Cheats!! (8/26/2009 12:12:55 PM)

The AI does not get unlimited anything.

Andy




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