Are Mortars inbalanced? (Full Version)

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TheArchduke -> Are Mortars inbalanced? (8/29/2009 9:32:24 PM)

After playing a Operation Barbarossa game through '42 against an opponent who uses 50-60 mortars in his attack units (covered by 20-30 rifles or 2-3 tanks) I have to wonder, are they inbalanced as being rear area and good in attack against everything.

I had the most obscene results whilst fighting against or with mortar überstacks..



Jeffrey H. -> RE: Are Mortars inbalanced? (8/29/2009 10:37:54 PM)

It's been discussed a few times about mortars being more cost effective than infantry. In random games, I tend to build mortars over any other infantry sftype.



seille -> RE: Are Mortars inbalanced? (8/30/2009 8:48:01 AM)

Tons of mortars covered by rifle and/or tanks are VERY powerful.
Had the same bad experience like you long time ago.

Itīs like the stack limit for planes. Play with houserules.
Letīs say rifle-mortar-ratio 10:1 or max number of mortars per unit 5.
Something like this.



Joshuatree -> RE: Are Mortars inbalanced? (8/30/2009 10:30:58 AM)

I agree with Seille here, mortars are quite powerful, therefore I never put more than 5 in an unit. 50 to 60 mortars in an unit I consider to be a game exploit, which should be prevented by house rules.



82ndtrooper -> RE: Are Mortars inbalanced? (8/30/2009 11:50:47 AM)

motors are very powerful in large numbers. but they are more effective when they are attacking so attack them first. fighters kill them and so does arty.  armored cars and lights tanks do also.  2 or 3 pronged attacks are good against any units.
but the key to motors is to attack them first if you see a uber stack.


House rules are a good choice to stop this like noted above.



jjdenver -> RE: Are Mortars inbalanced? (9/1/2009 2:25:08 AM)

Agree, mortars are too strong. A house rule to restrict units to 1 mortar per 10 infantry/smg/conscript/militia or part thereof is a good idea I think. So:
1-10 inf type sft unit can have 1 mortar
11-20 inf type sft unit can have 2 mortar
21-30 inf type sft unit can have 3 mortar
etc

This keeps it in balance I think. If a unit is reduced out of proportion by combat losses the unit has to be brought back into line w/ the ratio w/in a reasonable amount of time, a few turns.

In diplomacy games that I've played in the past I've seen opponents build a ton of mortars so I like the house rule approach.



Appren -> RE: Are Mortars inbalanced? (9/1/2009 3:31:38 PM)

Mortars are strong indeed, but die easy to air power, which is the real "overpowered" thing in AT :)



GrumpyMel -> RE: Are Mortars inbalanced? (9/1/2009 5:09:23 PM)

Probably mortars, air and artillery are all a little bit overpowered (IMO)..... not that they aren't darn powerful in real-life, but they are a little bit too much of the "I win" unit in the game I think.

Fortunately, the engine has alot of tools to tweak those units....so I think playing around with those SFT's a bit might be able to yield some good results. I've been meaning to try a project with those SFT's and see if I could play a bit with some tweaks to change the balance a little bit.

One of the things about mortars I always wondered about was why they had such good combat values against armor. I don't think historicaly they were particulary effective against armor (at least if it was buttoned up).... perhaps nerfing their combat abilities against armor
might help balance them a bit more.

After-all, being a rear area unit...means that they are only really vulnerable when on defense. If an attacker knew that his mega-stack of mortars would get chewed up on every armored counter-attack.... he might be a bit inclined to disperse them a bit more....and put some more bazookas or AT guns in his stacks for protection. Might make them a bit more rock, paper, scissors then they are now.







SSFSX17 -> RE: Are Mortars inbalanced? (9/1/2009 5:21:31 PM)

If I ever have enough time to create the Advanced_to_the_17th mod, I'll try out the following changes:

- Change Mortars to cost 250 production, but only have 3 attacks, and reduce effectiveness vs. armor
- Artillery (and in my mod, S.P. Artillery and Long-Range Artillery) eat more supply. It's not easy to support the logistics for a constant shelling.
- Short-ranged pieces (Infantry Gun, Anti-Tank Gun & Flak) eat less supply and/or weigh less.



TPM -> RE: Are Mortars inbalanced? (9/1/2009 11:39:38 PM)

I totally agree with the last change...I've been working on a simple Barbarossa scenario (isn't everyone?) where those units (Infantry Gun, AT, and Flak) are basically "halved"--half the cost, half the weight, half the firepower, etc. In the vanilla game, those units are so expensive and heavy that you rarely ever use them...

quote:

ORIGINAL: SSFSX17

If I ever have enough time to create the Advanced_to_the_17th mod, I'll try out the following changes:

- Change Mortars to cost 250 production, but only have 3 attacks, and reduce effectiveness vs. armor
- Artillery (and in my mod, S.P. Artillery and Long-Range Artillery) eat more supply. It's not easy to support the logistics for a constant shelling.
- Short-ranged pieces (Infantry Gun, Anti-Tank Gun & Flak) eat less supply and/or weigh less.




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