Pfff...air combat :( (Full Version)

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Streptokok -> Pfff...air combat :( (9/7/2009 3:00:57 PM)

Hi, me again...
i downloaded the beta patch, installed it and over the weekend I restarted Jap campaign and slowely set my initial attacks, transports, initial strikes, set economy, check factories and updated plane production....
So was ready for turn 1, finaly checks and lets go.

So after 2 turns I can only say "Nerf bat has been working hard on Jap pilots/planes durig this patch".

I cant find other reason for such a terrible outcomes of my aerial combats that took first 2 turns.
My setup was basicly the same as first game pre-patch, but only a bit refined as to where aviation support should go after initial invasions. Didnt change altitude of fighters, missions were all left almost totaly the same.
Yet this patch turned to be complete masacre for my Jap aviators, as if I sent complete newbs to fight instead of "crack" pilots that Japs suposedly had at begining of war.

Each and every turn I lost more fighters even tough none of them were set to strafing airfield missions. Pure Escort and LrCap missions.
And even tough my fighters took "heavy" toll my bombers took even higher toll.

43 lost Nells and Beties first turn? [X(]
Where the hell am I suposed to find replacements for those loses, and the war has barely started?
50 pilots dead first 2 turns?
Each turn more fighters lost in air to air combat than what allies lost?
60%-75% Nates abort combat due to either gun jam, mechanical problems or engine cut off???
This is totaly funny, out of 40 Nates that showed up to defend Khota invasion ships only 10 fought [:@]
I mean gimme a break and tone this "mechanical problems" down a bit in final patch, this is stupid.
Now I have to bring double extra escort in order to have some protection :(
And not to mention to funniest thing. Those Nates attacked 2 old biplane torp bombers, teh Swordfishes, shot down one only to have the second one torpedo haruna [:@][:D]

In short - WTF?

31 zeros vs 14 P-40E and I loose more Zeros? Cant enjoy farking "air superiority" first week of the war then when is Jap player gonna have it?
In first 2 turns I didnt have a single fight where I came on top, killing more than loosing [:(]
And that was second turn after my Sallies made few runs against the airfields with alot of runs ending in 140+ airfield hits?




[image]local://upfiles/32710/3DB013B316FF4063912FD4C9F8CF5E81.jpg[/image]

EDIT: typo, not 34 zeros but 31...



Grollub -> RE: Pfff...air combat :( (9/7/2009 3:08:19 PM)

This might be a nice show [sm=00000613.gif]



jwilkerson -> RE: Pfff...air combat :( (9/7/2009 3:11:22 PM)

There were no changes in this area in the patch, so not a patch issue.

I can't actually say what the issue is. I'm playing numerous games and not seeing this type of issue.



Streptokok -> RE: Pfff...air combat :( (9/7/2009 3:20:15 PM)

Ah I know, a whine post [:(]
But I just dont get it how am i suposed to get anywhere with these loses now, and it completely kills the fun of the game in later year, hell it kills the fun in 06/42 when allies get better planes.
What happens then? jap player cant even get his plane airborne, they get shot during take off?

Point is, there is no point playing AE like this, because with this results its a shure win for allied player in PEBM.
Whats the point of playing then?
Isnt the "fun" of playing it in the posibilty that it wont end the way WWII actualy ended?

In stock it was possible for advanced players to do unhistorical things like clearing China and Russia or India, taking north Australia and New Zeland. And it was too much, I agree. AE is suposed not to let this happen, but should allow for unhistorical to happen to some extent. With this kind of disaster I dont see how?

Its turn 2 ffs and my A/C polls are empty (those that matter ie. zero, betty, Nells even Nate pool is empty [:(] ), squads understrength....

-----

I need to go play wwiionline a bit and leave AE for a day or two alone me thinks, not good when a game gets frustrating...



Bluebook -> RE: Pfff...air combat :( (9/7/2009 3:25:30 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Streptokok


In short - WTF?



In short - its war, stuff happens.

Im not seeing abnormal losses in my pbem as Japan. To lose 3 Zeros for 1 P-40 in one battle is not the end of the world, and if the nates cause you headache, then dont use them. I have mine sitting in various fields in Indochine waiting for Oscars insted.



Streptokok -> RE: Pfff...air combat :( (9/7/2009 3:29:38 PM)

I hear you and trust me I wouldnt "cry about it normaly" but in first 2 turns I didnt "win" any air to air combat.
Every time I lost more planes that my "crack" pilots shot down.
That just simply pisses me off [;)]

Bah, just disregard this thread then if u havent changed anything in patch, must be my "luck" then. Or lack of it.



jwilkerson -> RE: Pfff...air combat :( (9/7/2009 3:30:53 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Streptokok

Ah I know, a whine post [:(]
But I just dont get it how am i suposed to get anywhere with these loses now, and it completely kills the fun of the game in later year, hell it kills the fun in 06/42 when allies get better planes.
What happens then? jap player cant even get his plane airborne, they get shot during take off?

Point is, there is no point playing AE like this, because with this results its a shure win for allied player in PEBM.
Whats the point of playing then?
Isnt the "fun" of playing it in the posibilty that it wont end the way WWII actualy ended?

In stock it was possible for advanced players to do unhistorical things like clearing China and Russia or India, taking north Australia and New Zeland. And it was too much, I agree. AE is suposed not to let this happen, but should allow for unhistorical to happen to some extent. With this kind of disaster I dont see how?

Its turn 2 ffs and my A/C polls are empty (those that matter ie. zero, betty, Nells even Nate pool is empty [:(] ), squads understrength....

-----

I need to go play wwiionline a bit and leave AE for a day or two alone me thinks, not good when a game gets frustrating...


Main thing I wonder is what setting are you on for the AI??? Historical, Hard or Very Hard. If not on "Historical" try switching to "Historical" that should improve things. The AI gets combat bonuses on the higher levels.




TheElf -> RE: Pfff...air combat :( (9/7/2009 6:15:40 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: jwilkerson


quote:

ORIGINAL: Streptokok

Ah I know, a whine post [:(]
But I just dont get it how am i suposed to get anywhere with these loses now, and it completely kills the fun of the game in later year, hell it kills the fun in 06/42 when allies get better planes.
What happens then? jap player cant even get his plane airborne, they get shot during take off?

Point is, there is no point playing AE like this, because with this results its a shure win for allied player in PEBM.
Whats the point of playing then?
Isnt the "fun" of playing it in the posibilty that it wont end the way WWII actualy ended?

In stock it was possible for advanced players to do unhistorical things like clearing China and Russia or India, taking north Australia and New Zeland. And it was too much, I agree. AE is suposed not to let this happen, but should allow for unhistorical to happen to some extent. With this kind of disaster I dont see how?

Its turn 2 ffs and my A/C polls are empty (those that matter ie. zero, betty, Nells even Nate pool is empty [:(] ), squads understrength....

-----

I need to go play wwiionline a bit and leave AE for a day or two alone me thinks, not good when a game gets frustrating...


Main thing I wonder is what setting are you on for the AI??? Historical, Hard or Very Hard. If not on "Historical" try switching to "Historical" that should improve things. The AI gets combat bonuses on the higher levels.




This was going to be my first question.



Chad Harrison -> RE: Pfff...air combat :( (9/7/2009 6:36:30 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Streptokok

Nerf



This is a bit off subject, but its always funny to hear the word 'nerf' in regards to a game like AE. I almost feel like I stumbled into a RTS or MMORPG forum[:D]



Streptokok -> RE: Pfff...air combat :( (9/8/2009 8:41:40 PM)

Well im chilled from the subject and the Nerf is used here because:
-i can understand getting hordes of allied 4E bombers passing trough cap and beating down their target good later in the game but to loose so many Jap 2E bombers early in the game and to barely scratch allied 2 E bombers on their attacks wich were crap btw, more than betty and Nells
-and to loose so many zeros to "obsolete" allied fighters in the begining

makes me wonna use teh Nerf word on japanese side.

You see you cant realy make the game "historical" because its not a game anymore.
You need to make it a bit balanced, give both players a chance to show what they know...
Not just to scorch 30 Nells on every attack for allies and then give maybe a kill or two of the attacking Hudsons and Blens to the Japs that have a hard time with plane pools anyway in AE.
Thats all from me in here, no point in whining just wanted to state my opinion.

Anyway few PEBMS have gone far enough for to see all effects in second half of 42 to 43 imho.
Japs get Tonys/Tojos later than in stock i think, will see what a sloughter fest it will be when a bit better allied planes arrive...

PS. I continued the game with some tactics re-thinking, well actualy alot of thinking [:'(], got a bit better results. After 2 turns I managed to even the loses and last turn i was +1 [:D]
Yes I got my brain overloded pondering what to change to get it right but thats what i expect of Witp. Other stuff I need in games i get in wwiionline [&o]



Mynok -> RE: Pfff...air combat :( (9/8/2009 8:52:29 PM)


Why aren't you sweeping? Escort and LrCap are the worst missions for fighters.



Streptokok -> RE: Pfff...air combat :( (9/8/2009 8:56:17 PM)

Oh I swept.
And even more Zeros never came back [:D]

Sweeps are now used only where I know ill encounter some really crappy CAP in my game...



tbridges -> RE: Pfff...air combat :( (9/8/2009 9:38:06 PM)

Hey Mynok...please help this noob understand your comment. My air combats have been turning out terrible and I need help. [&:] Are you saying that I'll have better results if I send in my fighters on a sweep misssion (instead of Escort) to precede my bombing strike? Won't my bombers be left unprotected then? What about the enemy CAP that the sweep misses?



TheTomDude -> RE: Pfff...air combat :( (9/8/2009 10:07:15 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: jwilkerson


quote:

ORIGINAL: Streptokok

Ah I know, a whine post [:(]
But I just dont get it how am i suposed to get anywhere with these loses now, and it completely kills the fun of the game in later year, hell it kills the fun in 06/42 when allies get better planes.
What happens then? jap player cant even get his plane airborne, they get shot during take off?

Point is, there is no point playing AE like this, because with this results its a shure win for allied player in PEBM.
Whats the point of playing then?
Isnt the "fun" of playing it in the posibilty that it wont end the way WWII actualy ended?

In stock it was possible for advanced players to do unhistorical things like clearing China and Russia or India, taking north Australia and New Zeland. And it was too much, I agree. AE is suposed not to let this happen, but should allow for unhistorical to happen to some extent. With this kind of disaster I dont see how?

Its turn 2 ffs and my A/C polls are empty (those that matter ie. zero, betty, Nells even Nate pool is empty [:(] ), squads understrength....

-----

I need to go play wwiionline a bit and leave AE for a day or two alone me thinks, not good when a game gets frustrating...


Main thing I wonder is what setting are you on for the AI??? Historical, Hard or Very Hard. If not on "Historical" try switching to "Historical" that should improve things. The AI gets combat bonuses on the higher levels.




Joe, the manual says:

Hard - The computer is given some logistical advantages.
Very Hard - The computer is given some logistical and combat advantages.

I'm playing on hard because I did not want to have the Ai having combat advantages. So is the manual correct or does the Ai also have combat advantages on hard like you said above?
Thanks



Streptokok -> RE: Pfff...air combat :( (9/8/2009 10:14:05 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: tbridges

Hey Mynok...please help this noob understand your comment. My air combats have been turning out terrible and I need help. [&:] Are you saying that I'll have better results if I send in my fighters on a sweep misssion (instead of Escort) to precede my bombing strike? Won't my bombers be left unprotected then? What about the enemy CAP that the sweep misses?


Way Im seeing it is that u allways need escorts for bombers but what Mynok says, I think, is that sweeping the target base before you bomb it is more effective and/or that sweep missions give better results killing enemy fighters than to order LrCap or escort into target hex.



GB68 -> RE: Pfff...air combat :( (9/9/2009 1:38:15 AM)

 I am seeing similiar casaulities to Streptokok. But, in short its not that worrysome to me. It is a significant change from WitP though.

Except for one thing I've noticed on 1st turn (Dec 7th). Reading the manual, the surprise rule (which I have turned on) means the allies have only 50% chance of launching any CAP. And if they do launch the CAP is supposed to be redued by 75%.  When launching raids over Clark or Manila, the Allied CAP in one or the other is generally about 20+ planes, I have seen as high as 28 in total. Doing a quick count of total fighters based on Luzon (assuming LRCAP might be involved) they number about 103 plus 22 reserve. SO the maximum total CAP possible should be about 22 or 23. And this assuming all units are set to 100% CAP roles.

I'm struggling to see how the numbers are possible on the Morning phase of Dec. 7th. Anyone else seen this?



stuman -> RE: Pfff...air combat :( (9/9/2009 4:12:09 AM)

Playing Japanese, Historical, GC I started right off being fanatical about using proper support , proper supplies, sweeps at 20,000 ( some higher, a few 15,000 ) and I am not seeing what I consider atypical results. I am knocking down Allied fighters at maybe 1.5 to my 1 ( IIRC ). I also send escorts as often as possible. Each turn in both PI and Malaya got better for me. I have had a few mistakes, a couple of bomber groups left their escorts behind and got spnaked, but generally it has seemed to me ( maybe I am lucky ) that having all of my support in place, and sweep when possible is a good basic starting point for early success. Oh and I really watch fatigue, and replaced leaders as often as it made sense to do so.



sval062 -> RE: Pfff...air combat :( (9/9/2009 11:57:30 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Streptokok

Way Im seeing it is that u allways need escorts for bombers but what Mynok says, I think, is that sweeping the target base before you bomb it is more effective and/or that sweep missions give better results killing enemy fighters than to order LrCap or escort into target hex.


Yes. The better thing to do is to only sweep for several days in a row at 21000 feet (or higher), without bombing anything (--> no risk to loose any bomber because of non escorted raid [:D]).

Then you can continue to sweep and put some of your fighters on escort when you bomb. You should see good results. [;)]

I did that in my PBEM and after 5-6 days of sweep in PI, my ratio win/loss is 3-4:1 and I have also noticed that less enemy fighters are flying now (and sometimes, no more --> It's time to bomb).

I feel it's quite historical.[:'(]



goran007 -> RE: Pfff...air combat :( (9/9/2009 12:53:43 PM)

dunno how historical that really is.

First thing any side tried to do is to make surprise attack by overwhelming force. Trying to obliterate oponent by strafing and bombing airstrips and facilities to nonexistence.

One such well coordinated attack would destroy vast majority of instalations and aircraft parked near the strip.




OldCanuck -> RE: Pfff...air combat :( (9/10/2009 2:52:39 AM)

My experience also is that the air combat system is producing ahistorical results.  I am playing the campaign as the allies at historical difficulty.  In the Philippines and Malaya my troops are running like rabbits, but my inexperienced pilots in obsolete planes are tigers in the air.  They are going 1 for 1 with Zeros and Oscars and butchering Nates and bombers.  Meanwhile, my bombers are flying tanks that always get through, even if they can't hit anything when they arrive.  This isn't something that can be addressed by gamey tactics.  If one is using historical tactics, one should get , roughly, historical results.



PMCN -> RE: Pfff...air combat :( (9/10/2009 11:29:12 AM)

I am now mid-january 42 and the losses are running at 1000+ for the japanese and 700+ for me as the allies. But the thing is I notice that my pilots of the older junk (Buffaloes) are very good and my top pilots are in the P40Es. The P40Es are able to inflict serious losses on unescorted bombers and the AI does that a lot and they can often do very well even against zeros but it is a question of pilot skill. Shooting down unescorted japanese bombers wasn't that difficult they were fairly fragile and had few defensive guns so if you are blowing them out of the air that is what I would expect. The zeros/oscars are a danger though they can rip up my Buffaloes and the AVG is down to only 2 functional squadrons as the one in rangoon is nearly out of planes.

Nates die generally against P40Es. But I'm hard pressed to find that ahistorical. The losses the AI is suffering is brutal but they are also wearing down my air groups something fierce. I have less than 20 fighters total in the Philippines and about 25 fighters in Singapore with 14 fighters in rangoon. Production is well below losses for me and I assume the japanese is seriously in trouble with that degree of losses. My groups at Pearl are still way below strength.

I use my bombers mainly for night raids and that seems to work well. I've noticed the allied bombers do pretty good defending themselves. The B17s I sent in at 30,000 feet and they did better un-escorted. Didn't hit much bombing though. Is there some sort of minimum altitude for level bombers though? My best bombers at the momemt are the kingfishers they have been doing a bang up job around the Philippines attacking transports and freighters.



Streptokok -> RE: Pfff...air combat :( (9/10/2009 12:08:14 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Paul McNeely
The P40Es are able to inflict serious losses on unescorted bombers ... Shooting down unescorted japanese bombers wasn't that difficult they were fairly fragile and had few defensive guns so if you are blowing them out of the air that is what I would expect.


I agree, but please tell me why am I not suposed to find it strange when my CAP of 20-30 fighters of Oscars and Nates isnt able to do the same to unescorted Blens and Hudsons?
I find it completely unbalanced to see those planes escape my CAP every time and my Nells getting sloughtered every time, I dont think that 6 Blens shouldnt get masacred the same way when they are oposed unescorted with 20-30 Jap fighters...
Im sorry but that seems rather unfair and unbalanced.

quote:

Nates die generally against P40Es. But I'm hard pressed to find that ahistorical.


I agree again. But I do find it ahistorical when they manage to win every single fight against Zero CAP/sweep first 3 days of war.

And the bigest thing of all that I do mind is the historical part here.
Its a game. It shouldnt be all historical. Should give both sides a chance in PEBMs to show what they can do.
Otherwise theres no point in playing PEBM, just play as allies vs AI and win all the time...



EUBanana -> RE: Pfff...air combat :( (9/10/2009 12:33:00 PM)

My P40s in the Guadalcanal scenario got their ass well and truly kicked by Zeroes. The P38s didnt do very well either.

[img]http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/upfiles/10259/842D42835C834C2CBA531C211831EC6C.jpg[/img]



Flying Tiger -> RE: Pfff...air combat :( (9/10/2009 1:42:36 PM)

quote:

Main thing I wonder is what setting are you on for the AI??? Historical, Hard or Very Hard. If not on "Historical" try switching to "Historical" that should improve things. The AI gets combat bonuses on the higher levels.



WHAT??!! we were ASSURED that the die rolls were not affected (effected?? who cares). Giving the AI logistic help, movement bonuses, complete intel, etc. does not bother me. Loaded dice?? i'm not so sure



PMCN -> RE: Pfff...air combat :( (9/10/2009 1:55:30 PM)

I can't comment on the allied bombers because frankly I've never seen that sort of thing happen. I've not lost so many of my bombers to enemy cap that I recall but on the other hand I've never encountered serious cap except when I foolishly sent in my banshees or when the lex strike went in. In both of those cases my planes were 100% killed. Most of the time I send my un-escorted bombers in at night and there they do ok. The sole exception is the chinese ones which go in low and only get a few intercepting fighters which they mostly drive off. And yes I've seen the IJN bombers do the same thing, depends on the number of "gun jammed", "engine cutting out", "low on ammo", "leaking oil" events you get. The only daylight raids I launched were with B17s and they went in at 30K feet where the zero is less maneuverable then the B17. Mostly I get bomber damaged at the end of the day. Given the Betty has nearly twice the ranger of the allied bombers and they aren't that different in size I would suspect they lack armour. So your zeros probably damage a lot of allied bombers without shooting them down. Why 20-30 fighters can't shoot down 6 inbound bombers I can't say since I'd think that they were toast at that point.

I've never seen a zero protected strike get their bombers hurt and the zeros in numbers are damn dangerous. They are a meat grinder for your fighters. The Oscar is nearly as bad so I've never seen what you are commenting on. I am down to less than 60 fighters in the Philippines, Rangoon, and Singapore total after some 5 weeks of air-to-air combat. I've seen zeros everywhere so the Japanese are not running out of them. I'm doubtfull even my better pilots have managed much better than 1:1 losses against the zeros with P40Es. In the Philippines I am consolidating my squadrons down to a single P40E squadron, and a single P40B squadron due to losses. The P40Bs are used at night. Most of my zero kills are "on the ground" from when a CVL and a CV were sunk by submarines.

It may be important to remember that the allies have radar. I almost always have detected the raid on radar so tha means more of my CAP is available to be used. This may be part of the reason your sweeps are not so effective?



Halsey -> RE: Pfff...air combat :( (9/10/2009 9:20:38 PM)

To look for before assigning airstrikes.

Leaders
Fighters: insp 60+, air 60+, aggres 60+.

Bombers: high insp and aggres will increase the likelyhood of unescorted strikes going in.
Put weiners in charge, they will bug out and go home, unless escorted.[;)]


Altitude performance
Fighters:
Look for the major break in altitude effectiveness.

Bombers:
So, if your fighters get the break at 21000', set your bombers at that altitude also.[;)]

Your not in Kansas anymore Dorothy.[:D]
AE isn't like WITP in quite a few areas.



bklooste -> RE: Pfff...air combat :( (9/11/2009 4:37:13 AM)

One question is fair why are people using better than historic tactics to get get historic ( or worse) results...eg the leaders at start are what the Japanese actually used , escorts were used commonly and suplemented by sweeps not the other way around ,supply at start is what they used and they operated A6M2s and Nates at forward bases with poor Av support.



TheTomDude -> RE: Pfff...air combat :( (9/11/2009 9:15:16 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: TheTomDude


quote:

ORIGINAL: jwilkerson


quote:

ORIGINAL: Streptokok

Ah I know, a whine post [:(]
But I just dont get it how am i suposed to get anywhere with these loses now, and it completely kills the fun of the game in later year, hell it kills the fun in 06/42 when allies get better planes.
What happens then? jap player cant even get his plane airborne, they get shot during take off?

Point is, there is no point playing AE like this, because with this results its a shure win for allied player in PEBM.
Whats the point of playing then?
Isnt the "fun" of playing it in the posibilty that it wont end the way WWII actualy ended?

In stock it was possible for advanced players to do unhistorical things like clearing China and Russia or India, taking north Australia and New Zeland. And it was too much, I agree. AE is suposed not to let this happen, but should allow for unhistorical to happen to some extent. With this kind of disaster I dont see how?

Its turn 2 ffs and my A/C polls are empty (those that matter ie. zero, betty, Nells even Nate pool is empty [:(] ), squads understrength....

-----

I need to go play wwiionline a bit and leave AE for a day or two alone me thinks, not good when a game gets frustrating...


Main thing I wonder is what setting are you on for the AI??? Historical, Hard or Very Hard. If not on "Historical" try switching to "Historical" that should improve things. The AI gets combat bonuses on the higher levels.




Joe, the manual says:

Hard - The computer is given some logistical advantages.
Very Hard - The computer is given some logistical and combat advantages.

I'm playing on hard because I did not want to have the Ai having combat advantages. So is the manual correct or does the Ai also have combat advantages on hard like you said above?
Thanks


bump



Streptokok -> RE: Pfff...air combat :( (9/15/2009 1:55:04 PM)

Getting wasted vs easy AI [:(]

Anyway i tried it all and nothing works on unescorted Blens. Impossible to shoot down by Japs. And unescorted Netties get chewd like a juicy BigMac.

3 times in turn they attack 3 times oposed, none shot down.
34 Nells oposed by 2 Buffalos, 6 shot down.

Turn after turn same crap. Tried all fighter types, tried all altitudes. Blens escape [8|]
I gives up, its sucks to be Jap in AE.



[image]local://upfiles/32710/8231CB16C4A345A7B2110299E2D764CE.jpg[/image]



HistoryGuy -> RE: Pfff...air combat :( (9/15/2009 6:53:02 PM)

I think some of this frustration may result from "perceptions" of what happened historically.  If you are already convinced certain airframes did better, then AE seems totally lacking in realism.  Try perusing "Bloody Shambles" in detail.  It seems most Allied AF failures were attributable to lack of numbers, poor leadership, logistics, planning, training, rather than individual airframe performance.  It boggles the mind to know that the Brewster ALMOST became the standard Navy fighter rather than the Wildcat, because its performance wasnt THAT bad, but it was not chosen because the manufacturer was totally inept in a managerial sense.  P-40s did poorly on the first day in the Philippines because of abysmal fighter direction and inappropriate tactics, but US fighters did shoot down several zeros and were able to do so at reasonable cost in ATA combat.  As for AE, I have not seen invulnerable Blenheims and my air-to-air losses, as the Japanese, though somewhat puzzling at times, vary with changes in tactics.  I even had Oscars knock down B-17Es but the combat results do not always indicate the Allied plane was destroyed - it gets credited to the victory tally (apparently) after the operational reports list the B-17E as crashing due to battle damage.  Otherwise I cannot explain how an Oscar unit at Miri got 16 kills when it was only attacked by B-17s from DEI!



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