RE: Bitter Herbs (Full Version)

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JeffroK -> RE: Bitter Herbs (11/21/2009 3:00:39 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Altaris


quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffK

Any other thought on how to limit japan without totaly crippling them?



I was tossing some ideas around in my head and here on the boards about limiting the number of units or total infantry that could assault in a hex on one day. The remainder would have to be in non-attack mode (reserve, defend, etc). Say something like, only 40,000 infantry can participate on attackers side on any given day. This would make it possible to cap off how much had to go into a base for defense, and make non-base hex have some actual purpose. Imagine having to actually fight a strategic battle to cut off a well fortified city, that sort of thing. That's how I interpreted the manual as describing long drawn-out land combat. There's nothing long or drawn-out about the current model.

Right now, the full initiative lies in the hands of whomever attacks. One only attacks if they have overwhelming force for the most part, and in doing so, they take very few casualties while completely annihilating the defensive force. China's made worse due to the poor quality of their troops, but it happens in other theaters this way as well.

The big problem with limiting amount of attackers is overcoming a massive defense in an isolated position (such as Bataan or Singapore). I certainly wouldn't want a limited attack force hitting the typical massive stacks in either of these areas, as the attacker would be the one taking horrendous losses.

I'm sorta waiting for Patch 2 at this point, I wish we had some idea of what was being done to address this matter. I fear it's not much, since it's been so mum. I'm going to start doing some more test case scenarios after P2 comes out, and fleshing out ideas for HR again.


Heh,

I just noticed the first 95% of my mail didnt post[:'(]

My thoughts were,

Limit the amount of arty which can leave Manchuria by assigning garrison sections to their TOE. These can be "released" by allowing production of 1 garrison section per mth starting on date XX/XX/XX

Anchor much of "China Command" by using similar garrison sections. Some of the units were made up of locally conscripted Chinese so these could be anchored permanently.

Change all roads back to tracks to make it hard to amass enough supply to conquer central China.

Tone back Artillery effect by 50-75% for all units, while the killer of the battlefield in Europe, it was a bit harder to achieve this in the PTO and allows for not all tubes being able to fire.

Do the Chinese need Industry which can be destroyed?? Cant a City give automatic supply??
This would stop the Strategic Bombing campaign by making it ineffective, but still provide the Chinese with some supply.

Make the penalty for not keeping a garrison worthwhile so that players dont ignore it for a higher purpose.

Avoid House rules.

Play against the AI, it never does gamey things, dumb, but not gamey.



Bullwinkle58 -> RE: Bitter Herbs (11/21/2009 6:12:59 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: crsutton

I see his point. It is that a smart human player will use few larger convoys to reduce the number of attacks. This is what the Allies discovered in the North Altlantic, that even one very large convoy with poor escort was at much less risk that a bunch of smaller convoys as it limited the actual number of times that subs was in position to attack. Historically, the Japanese did not use large convoys but in the game, a wise player will run large convoys and break them up as they get to their destinations.


Maybe. But that then buys loading delays due to port size limits.



IronWarrior -> RE: Bitter Herbs (11/21/2009 7:00:14 AM)

Bullwinkle, I find it a shame that you don't pbem as I like your approach and attitude. C'mon you know you want to... and create an AAR as well. [:D]



Ketza -> RE: Bitter Herbs (11/21/2009 4:41:12 PM)

Both of my games have ground to a halt due to the China issues.

Sorry to see this one end I was watching for a new post everyday.



Q-Ball -> RE: Bitter Herbs (11/21/2009 5:22:32 PM)

I think a good HR start is to:

1. Prohibit strategic bombing in China. As a minor sop to the Japanese, don't strat bomb Burma Oil fields until 1944

2. Kwantung Artillery cannot be bought and moved. It stays there.

It does sound like artillery effectiveness will be toned down for patch 2



FatR -> RE: Bitter Herbs (11/21/2009 5:59:50 PM)

I'm completely against HRs forbidding moving stuff out of Manchuria. Garrison requirements to prevent Soviet activation are antihistoric already. And the whole point of the game is to try and make better decisions than those that were made in RL. In this particular case, realising that you must either attack USSR right now, to ensure its fall, or ignore it for the time being and concentrate on more vital targers, instead of tying up a massive force for the period when it might actuall matter. Ability to one-sidedly obliterate your opponent when you have decisive artillery advantage is historical too. I'll be rather disappointed if artillery will become almost useless, as, I heard, it was before.

The points where AE really fails at both historical accuracy and gameplay balance is shifting supplies between bases practicaly at will (which completely removes about half of historical reasons for Japanese failure to utterly overrun China) and low supply requirements for bombardments (you can easily afford to just bombard every single goddamn turn at every hex where you aren't shock attacking, and keep this up for at least a month without creating a supply crisis).

EDIT: I'm not even sure that flattening China in 1942 matters, unless it allows for the point victory and the aim of the game is, in fact, obtaining the point victory. Once Allies gain enough air superiority to start leapfrogging and isolating islands - which Patch 1 in all likelyhood makes easier, by not really allowing Japanese pilots to ever gain skills in combat - extra infantry isn't going to stop them. They still will be able to both bring enough power to overwhelm any quantity of troops Japanese can realistically supply on islands, target the weakest points at will and secure their victory by strategic bombing.



Bullwinkle58 -> RE: Bitter Herbs (11/21/2009 6:56:21 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: IronWarrior

Bullwinkle, I find it a shame that you don't pbem as I like your approach and attitude. C'mon you know you want to... and create an AAR as well. [:D]


[:)]Well, aw, shucks, and so forth.
PBEM would only really work for me if I could play someone I know in RL, and I know where they live, where I can go to beat them senseless with a couch cushion when they bolt the game after it gets hard to play Japan.

When I play, I usually play at least two weeks of turns in one sitting. I don't play every day, and I would have trouble playing in real time.

Not to say never though, but I'd need to find an opponent who isn't so anally-retentive that the thing is no fun. And someone who won't mind when the US sub fleet dismantles them at all costs. [:)][:)]



Bullwinkle58 -> RE: Bitter Herbs (11/21/2009 7:03:17 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: FatR

EDIT: I'm not even sure that flattening China in 1942 matters, unless it allows for the point victory and the aim of the game is, in fact, obtaining the point victory. Once Allies gain enough air superiority to start leapfrogging and isolating islands - which Patch 1 in all likelyhood makes easier, by not really allowing Japanese pilots to ever gain skills in combat - extra infantry isn't going to stop them. They still will be able to both bring enough power to overwhelm any quantity of troops Japanese can realistically supply on islands, target the weakest points at will and secure their victory by strategic bombing.


Hear, hear.

All this wailing about China is nice, but again, SO WHAT? If you can't lose the game on VPs there it's just gorilla dust.

The glass jaw of Japan is, was, and forever will be its merchant marine. Destroying that must be the focus of any PTO game. Without AKs/TKs it doesn't matter how many troops are deployed out in the theater. They can be bypassed, or selectively destroyed to get bomber bases in range of the VP bank in the HI. China is just a series of speed bumps that give the Japanese player warm fuzzies for a few months. They they get unrelenting pain until the end comes at sea and in the air.



Wittmann30 -> RE: Bitter Herbs (11/21/2009 8:54:30 PM)

Just a short note to the artillery topic. My PBEM opponent had the following suggestion which is quite good and practically:

Artillery must stop bombarding when it has a fatigue of >30 and can resume bombardments when fatigue falls <10


Works very good by now..

Wittmann



Canoerebel -> Shattered Vow Resumes (11/21/2009 10:59:15 PM)

Miller and I have agreed to resume the game. While China is borked, we agree that we've already invested so many hours in the game that it would be a shame to stop now.

I suggested that we continue without House Rules and that Miller do his dead-level best to wipe China out. I wanted to see if the Allies could recover. But he suggested these House Rules:

1. Complete ground ceasefire in China till at least July 43. I will pull my troops back to Nanyang from Sian, also I will stand down everything at Changsha to simulate a siege. I will also send the the Kwantung units I have brought into China elsewhere. Could I be allowed to continue air attacks on ground units and airfields as pilot training? Obviously you can oppose with fighters....

2. No more strat bombing in China, perhaps you would consider not attacking my captured resources until after a certain date (44 perhaps)?

3. Artillery.......perhaps just leave it as is [House Rule - one unit per division] until patch 2 comes out? I realise the turn we ended that I have landed too many units at Cox's Bazar, I will stand them down and march them south to Akyab.

One complication that isn't a complication and probably helps both of us to an extent. Miller had posted in my AAR, so I knew he had probably read at least some of it. But how much? So I asked him and he replied:

"I skimmed your AAR, I saw you were thinking of landing Parishimu Jima....but my CV advantage would make that a nasty prospect in the next few months. Besides, I had a good read of your AAR v John III and I know you went for there and Hokkaido early 43 in that game, so I was half expecting you to consider that as an option, along with Iwo Jima!"

I think I might've made a show of it a Paramushiro, but certainly Miller was attuned to such a gambit. So now I stand all those troops down and come up with some other clever plan. I think we're entering a lull in the game as the Allies can't really go on the offensive for awhile. But at least all the hours and hours and hours that have gone into serving Allied logistics will not have gone to waste.

The game will be slow restarting. My family and I are to leave town tomorrow for nearly a week, but one of my children seems to be coming down with a cold, so travel plans are still a bit in the air.




Deathtreader -> RE: Shattered Vow Resumes (11/21/2009 11:05:27 PM)


Woohoo!!

Good news.........[sm=00000613.gif]

Glad to see the restart!!

Rob.



khyberbill -> RE: Bitter Herbs (11/22/2009 12:49:25 AM)

quote:

Both of my games have ground to a halt due to the China issues.


One of my games has been halted for weeks now. The other is still going on because my foe has decided not to create large stacks in China.



Bullwinkle58 -> RE: Shattered Vow Resumes (11/22/2009 9:52:00 PM)

Excellent!!

I think you, and we, now get the chance to see how the Allies do with the low-CV status you currently find yourself experiencing. History is out the window.

I know from your earlier comments you'll re-look at your submarine efforts. Since the northern invasion route might be OBE for now due to his reading the AAR, I urge you to consider again setting up a squadron at Dutch H.--S-boats--and close off his northern sortie routes out of the Sea of Japan.

Personally, I'd have prefered to see your idea of letting him crush China and then seeing what happens. His HRs pretty much hand you back a lot of initiative and VP room. But if that's what he wants, and it gets the game underway again, play on!!

We aren't traveling this recession year. I think there'll be a veritable orgy of AE playing over this coming 4-day weekend.



GB68 -> RE: Shattered Vow Resumes (11/23/2009 1:15:16 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

1. Complete ground ceasefire in China till at least July 43. I will pull my troops back to Nanyang from Sian, also I will stand down everything at Changsha to simulate a siege. I will also send the the Kwantung units I have brought into China elsewhere. Could I be allowed to continue air attacks on ground units and airfields as pilot training? Obviously you can oppose with fighters....

2. No more strat bombing in China, perhaps you would consider not attacking my captured resources until after a certain date (44 perhaps)?







I personally think this is a great solution for China in the short term. Especially the cease fire rule!

Obviously, you would have to limit moving units out of China, but it is certainly doable. Certainly not historical, but a solution. Also as the "Quiet China" scenarios don't seem to work that well.

Looking forward to reading the rest of this great AAR.



modrow -> RE: Shattered Vow Resumes (11/23/2009 11:05:00 AM)

Canoerebel,

great news [sm=character0272.gif].

When I was trying to catch up inn your AAR after a few days of absence from these forums and I was coming across the end of this game, I was sad to read that it was to be over. Actually, I was going to propose a new rule that whenever you end an AAR, this is considered to start a new term of celibate for you... [8D], but evidently, you have managed to avoid this now...

Looking forward to see how this develops.

Hartwig



Swenslim -> RE: Shattered Vow Resumes (11/23/2009 11:10:37 AM)

How much divisions historically Japan pulled out of China ? You can agree peace treaty and allow for Japan to move out of China historical number of units plus 4-5 divisions.



Chickenboy -> RE: Shattered Vow Resumes (11/23/2009 1:49:37 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Swenslim

How much divisions historically Japan pulled out of China ? You can agree peace treaty and allow for Japan to move out of China historical number of units plus 4-5 divisions.

If I was playing Japan I would not agree to this suggestion. If the Japanese player pays PP for them, he should be able to extract units out of Kwantung and China, if necessary exceeding those withdrawn IRL.

If one's not careful about exactly what is extracted from Kwantung (e.g., focusing only on the number of infantry divisions), then difference in interpretation of details may abound. What about the numerous armored, artillery, air force and base force units. These don't qualify as 'divisions' as you've defined above, but their removal from Kwantung and / or China would have significant game effects.

Like I said before-specific HRs often beget additional HRs which make it necessary for new HRs to address some other HRs. IMO, it's best to avoid too many of these that will, eventually, be interpreted differently for different players.



Canoerebel -> Weird Twilight (11/28/2009 1:30:08 PM)

8/16/42 to 8/19/42
 
Weird Twilight:  The game has entered a weird and dissatisfying phase for the Allies.  Allied carriers got trashed at the Battle of New Hebrides, China got clobbered, we halted the game due to the situation in China, my opponent naturally read over my AAR getting a whif of my future plans, then we resumed the game because we had so much time invested.  So now I'm impotent (no carriers to speak of) and what far-fetched plans I did have were scrubbed due to my opponent's security breakthrough (permissible reading of my AAR).  For some time to come I'm reduced to taking baby steps, trying to blunt any Japanese offensives, making sure Allied logistics are properly operating, and trying to come up with some kind of plan to take advantage of opportunities that may arise.

NoPac:  Now that my opponent knows I was looking at the Kuriles, I need to stand down all the troops that had gathered at Seattle; the only problem is that I don't know where I want to send them.   I'll probably send a few to the Aleutians just to beef up those bases; the rest will probably head to Australia.  I have to admit that I haven't totally, 100%, given up on the idea of the Kuriles, though.

CenPac:  Quiet at the moment; a Japanese move on Midway or Canton Island wouldn't surprise me given Japanese carrier superiority.  Both have garrisons of about 100 AV near the population limits (6,000 each), some mines, and three forts.

SoPac:  I don't expect Japanese offensive activity here.  The Allied garrisons at Pago Pago, Suva, Tahiti, Noumea, Luganville, and Auckland are too strong.  The main Allied activity will be building up the dot hexes north of Luganville and possibly some "small, lightning" moves on the Funafuti chain.

SWPac:  The Allied build-up of Coen and Portland Roads continues.  This is where I intend to employ 4EB and 2EB in big numbers fairly soon.  The Japanese are about to land at Dili, so I'll loose my hold on Timor.  But there are a bunch of small but potentially good bases on islands north and northwest of Darwin.  Fertile fields for an Allied buildup.

China/Burma:  The Japanese have landed 16 units at Cox's Bazaar.  The Allies have enough to stop them, but Japanese bombardment are doing bad things to Allied AV, which has already dropped from 700 to 525.  I want to fight a war of attrition here and, if necessary, fall back and continue the fight at Chittagong.  Supply lines and proximithy to Allied air bases doesn't seem well-suited to a Japanese offensive in this region.

China:  Other than aerial activity, we've stood down China until January 1, 1943.  This is a particularly unsatisfying state of affairs to both of us - for my opponent because he was making great strides here, and for me because I hate house rules and it is most dissatisfying to artificially impose the weird twilight state on a major part of the game.

Sigh:  Sigh.

Long Term Prognosis:  [:D]




treespider -> RE: Weird Twilight (11/28/2009 1:32:39 PM)

Do you guys plan on patching?



Canoerebel -> RE: Weird Twilight (11/28/2009 1:35:47 PM)

Yeah, we'll patch once the patch is official.

I didn't detect much in the list of improvements that will affect China - just the need to garrison bases.  Didn't see anything that will affect artillery death stars, strategic bombing, air war balance, extremely limited supply, or the massively disproportionate battle losses inflicted on the Chinese.



khyberbill -> RE: Weird Twilight (11/28/2009 5:04:22 PM)

quote:

Yeah, we'll patch once the patch is official.

I didn't detect much in the list of improvements that will affect China - just the need to garrison bases. Didn't see anything that will affect artillery death stars, strategic bombing, air war balance, extremely limited supply, or the massively disproportionate battle losses inflicted on the Chinese.



That is also my conclusion. My foe moved a 9400 AV death star into Sian with a bunch of artillery and the game stopped about a month ago to wait for Patch 2. We are going to back up a few turns to the point where I had a little muscle in Sian and then patch the game and see what the affect of the patch is on China and develop HR if we have to. There is about 12000 supply in Sian but the troops dont have any of it-hopefully that is fixed too. Neither of us likes HR and an HR for China would be our only one.

It is sad that War in the Pacific is being so affected by land combat in China. Don has collected about 8000VP in China largely due to destruction of Chinese forces and I am not sure dinging him a few VP here and there is going to change a JFB's approach. In addition, I believe he has about 5000AV he can buy out from Manchuko to help garrison (unless the garrison requirements there changed). Unfortunately, my forces have been really hurt and I can mount much offense elsewhere. He is behind lvl 4 forts in all the major cities and the troops quickly run out of supply when I have tried to cut supply lines etc.

Does anyone know how many additional AV is required for the new garrison duty requirements by Japanese in China/Burma? Will it make a dent in a 9400AV death star?



JeffroK -> RE: Weird Twilight (11/28/2009 8:51:49 PM)

Its a pity a game about The War in the Pacific is so nerfed by the War in Asia, the japanese command IRL must have been so dumb not to achieve what gamers can. Or the game seriously overrates them!!  I'm getting a feeling that wile early Allies LCU & Chinese should have exp of around 30-40 and later LCU around 50-60 the IJA should be around 40-60.    Apart from the first 6 mths, and a very limited time in Burma & China in 1944 what did the IJA (LCU & commanders) do to rate higher?

Canoerebel,

Dont give up on the north, of course Miller doesnt expect that push anymore but now a base or two being built might fet him worrying, at least build up Dutch Harbour & Unmak as defensive outposts.

Have you considered moving units into SEAC, its possible a small investment especially in Air bases could help the Brits and drag a few more IJA units that way.



racndoc -> RE: Weird Twilight (11/29/2009 3:00:34 AM)

Good to see that you have resumed both the game and this AAR. If he has landed at Cox's Bazaar now you have him where u want him. You have unlimited supply there and at least a half dozen artillery....do to him now what he has been doing to you. And if u arent using your Far Eastern Air Force in China then use everything here. You have several bases at extremely close range to Cox's Bazaar and once u close down the airfield there all his AC will be at long range. You can set up an aerial attrition battle here that he cant possibly win.

And if u create air superiority you can LRCAP RN bombardment TFs from Diamond Harbor to Cox's Bazaar on a daily basis.

The way I see it India should almost be China in reverse.

And then some....



khyberbill -> RE: Weird Twilight (11/30/2009 1:02:05 AM)

I tend to agree with this advice. I would also like to point out that you can achieve some degree of success bombing his nearby airfields at night at low altitudes, such as 5000ft. At this point in the game, your foe doesnt have a decent night fighter. I have destroyed as many as 30 planes a night. On the other hand, please note that you are still in the monsoon season and you wont have great results until October. For some reason, monsoon lasts longer in AE than real life. I know, I grew up there!!! Judging by my success at Rangoon, the citizens there have never seen a star!



crsutton -> RE: Weird Twilight (11/30/2009 4:59:43 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

Yeah, we'll patch once the patch is official.

I didn't detect much in the list of improvements that will affect China - just the need to garrison bases.  Didn't see anything that will affect artillery death stars, strategic bombing, air war balance, extremely limited supply, or the massively disproportionate battle losses inflicted on the Chinese.



I have already noticed what seems to be a significant decrease in artillery kills in China. But perhaps my opponent just feels sorry for me....



Canoerebel -> Here come the Rebels! (12/1/2009 4:49:57 PM)

8/20/42 to 8/27/42
 
Here Come the Rebels (Not)!:  The title to this post is nothing more than disinformation aimed at making my opponent think I'm up to something.  A truer title might be:  "Days Dark and Dreary."  I remember the beautiful Larisa Anitpov (actress Julie Christie) in Doctor Zhivago saying, "It is a terrible time to be alive!" as wolves howled outside the ice-encrusted house in which she and Yuri had sought refuge.  The same thing holds true for the Allies as we near the end of August 1942.

Subwars:  Ack!  Escorted by four destroyers, BB Pennyslvania was making her way to the West Coast nine months after Pearl Harbor.  She had zero SYS damage and 60 FLT damage.  I-3 stumbled across her path and put a TT in her side, raising FLT to 83.  The next turn, I-31 put two more TTs in her side and the stricken ship went under.  The Allies have really suffered at the hands of Japanese subs in this game.  At least three RN BBs have been torpedoed, but this takes the cake.  Awful!  Gloom, despair and agony on me!  Now, though, I'm mad.  [:@]

India: The standoff continues at Cox's Bazaar.  Allied bombers, unopposed, hit the Japanese two days running and will continue for at least two more days.  For some reason, however, the damage inflicted is slight - much less than when comparable numbers of Japanese bombers hit me.  Are Wellingtons, Blenheims, Mitchells and Flying Forts toothless?  I suppose relatively low experience is the culprit, but...dang. [:o]   I think I can hold Cox's and that this will be a point of attrition to my advantage, but we'll see.

Australia:  I'm moving some Aussie troops out of the southern half of the continent to reinforce front line bases.  This is a small but satisfying step.  I think Oz is pretty safe - Perth has a garrison of 750 AV, Darwin 600 AV, and NE OZ has decent garrisons and tons of airfields.  I doubt Miller will head to Australia in any meaningful manner.  I'm positioning base forces and aircraft so that the Allies can begin a sustained bombing campaign against New Guinea as soon as Portland Roads has a decent airfield.

SoPac:  Quiet here.  The cost paid to re-take Luganville (three CVs and a BB) was steep, but it sure is nice to have the base back.  Luganville insulates the heavily protected bases at Noumea, Auckland, Suva, and even Pago Pago. I think the Allied position is safe and I can concentrate on baby steps (building up little bases on remote islands like Vana Lueva).

CenPac:  Quiet.  I bumped up Canton Islands garrison to just over 6,000.  With the KB intact, Miller can certainly take Canton or Midway, but he'll have to commit a fair amount of assets to do so.

NoPac:  The mass of troops, aircraft, and ships remains on hold at Seattle.  Don't know what I'm going to do with these guys, but various ideas are bouncing around in my head.




Chickenboy -> RE: Here come the Rebels! (12/1/2009 5:32:30 PM)

Well, glad to see your AAR gracing the top of the AAR pile, where it belongs.

Also glad to see you're getting mad. Allied commanders found that a genuine hatred of the enemy helped promote fighting spirit in troops, particularly in the ETO. Anger and fury have their place in warfare. Simulated anger should do here, though. [;)]

Go get 'em, reb.



Q-Ball -> RE: Here come the Rebels! (12/1/2009 6:37:34 PM)

At what point will you have parity in CV power? I lost track of what went under. Unless Miller accelerated Taiho, the only reasonable reinforcement the IJN gets until mid'43 is Ryuho. (all the CSs are available in June/July '43)

It looks bleak now, but you're fine. You haven't lost much territory, so you can make it up fast starting in Mid-'43 or so.



khyberbill -> RE: Here come the Rebels! (12/1/2009 7:23:28 PM)

quote:

At what point will you have parity in CV power? I lost track of what went under. Unless Miller accelerated Taiho, the only reasonable reinforcement the IJN gets until mid'43 is Ryuho. (all the CSs are available in June/July '43)
He gets three Essex class CV's in 43 (the last in Dec. 43). That is rarely enough to go head to head with KB. Especially the way the US CV's fly those uncoordinated strikes!



Q-Ball -> RE: Here come the Rebels! (12/1/2009 7:42:54 PM)

I don't have the reinforcement list in front of me, but I know you get most of the Independence CVLs in 1943....those count. They are about 1/3 of a CV apiece, but they count.

I think the odds change too with time because of USN AA upgrades, and probable degredation of IJN pilot quality, but particularly because of the Hellcat.

You can also take more chances as Allies, because replacements are on the way, and you have CVEs to support invasions....IJN has Taiho and that's about it to cover mid-1943 losses.



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