Stopping American Trade (Full Version)

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Mardonius -> Stopping American Trade (10/19/2009 5:28:06 PM)

Per the Original Game (rule 8.2.1.2.2.2.2 or rule lots of twos), each Economic Phase the GB player can elect to stop the US trade of a major power that it is at war with. Our EiANW Game Seems to have this down just fine for the intial stopping of the trade in that there is a die roll (1 in 6 per country's trade stopped) to see if GB goes to war with the US on the initial stopping of the US Trade.

However, this US die roll should happen every economic phase. This does not seem to be happening and makes the stopping of US trade a whole lot less risky for GB and damaging to France. PLus, this war will cause a lot less money to be available to the European States if the war breaks out as all US Trade is stopped.

Also, I'd like to confirm that GB can take the US trade of each country denied trade. Is this happening? I have no data to this effect.


I'll post on Mantis but just want to get others input and the forums seem best for that.

Thanks
Mardonius



Jimmer -> RE: Stopping American Trade (10/19/2009 8:13:16 PM)

Don't forget about the optional rule (12.something) where any power taking B6 counted as a nation denied trade by GB.



Mardonius -> RE: Stopping American Trade (10/19/2009 8:26:16 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Jimmer

Don't forget about the optional rule (12.something) where any power taking B6 counted as a nation denied trade by GB.

Yes, you are right. I was trying to work one thing at a time...



Ashtar -> RE: Stopping American Trade (10/20/2009 11:02:54 AM)

Mardonius, I do not think GB has to roll every three months, it is not written anywere explicitely.
On the contrary, it is clear that if a GB-US war starts, it will last until GB pays 5pp.
I always interpreted that rule as "GB rolls once when it stops trade and this lasts until the war against the opposing maj power lasts".




Marshall Ellis -> RE: Stopping American Trade (10/20/2009 1:06:29 PM)

I think I agree with Ashtar on this one!
Can anyone find the rule explaining the roll is onece per eco?




Mardonius -> RE: Stopping American Trade (10/20/2009 1:22:58 PM)

Hi Ashtar:

If you read the sequence of steps of the Economic Phase, the Money Collection by Trade-- like all steps -- happens every economic phase. Stopping American Trade is a subcomponent of this Money Collection by Trade and like all aspects of this step and all economic steps, each aspect must be redone each economic phase. If one were to interpret this issue as different or applying to only one phase then there are a whole host of other issues that might be only applicable to one phase. Note that where an aspect of an economic step is limited in occurence (e.g. Spanish Gold Convoy) there is always a proviso in the text to delineate that limitation. As such and since there is nothing that sets this issue apart, it is clear that this is meant for each Economic Phase.

Here is the rule in total:

8.2.1.2.2.2 American Trade: American trade represents European trade with the American continents.

8.2.1.2.2.2.1 American Trade Value: Each major power other than Great Britain may trade with America, receiving twice the second domestic trading value of any one port eligible (must use the one with the highest possible domestic trading values) for domestic trade which it controls. This port may not be in a controlled minor free state but may be in a controlled conquered minor country. It does not matter if this port is also used for domestic trade with Great Britain. Minor free states have no separate American trade.

8.2.1.2.2.2.2 Stopping American Trade-War With The United States: If Great Britain is at war with another major power(s), it may elect during this step to automatically stop that major power(s) from trading with America.

8.2.1.2.2.2.2.1: If Great Britain stops the American trade, Great Britain gains the value of the American trade it stops.

8.2.1.2.2.2.2.2: If this is done, the British player also rolls one die. If the roll is equal to or less than the number of major powers denied trade with America by Great Britain, Great Britain's actions are considered to have started a war with the U. S. A. Great Britain immediately loses 15 money points and loses 15 money points of its colonial trade every following Economic Phase while it remains at war with the USA. While Great Britain is at war with the USA no major power may trade with America. The war with the USA lasts until Great Britain ends it by choosing to lose 5 political points during any Peace Step. There may be more than one war with the USA during the course of a campaign game.

best
Mardonius



Mardonius -> RE: Stopping American Trade (10/20/2009 6:57:05 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Marshall Ellis

I think I agree with Ashtar on this one!
Can anyone find the rule explaining the roll is onece per eco?





Respectfully, Marshall, it is pretty clear that this die roll happens every economic phase. Any exception -- like the Gold Convoy -- is specifically noted.

best
Mardonius



bresh -> RE: Stopping American Trade (10/21/2009 7:06:25 AM)

Well, the wording in the EIA-rulebook is not that clear.
It can also be read as rolls happens once, each time a new nation is blocked.

Regards
Bresh



Marshall Ellis -> RE: Stopping American Trade (10/21/2009 1:14:07 PM)

As in case of the NFL play review, I need some overwhelming evidence to overturn! LOL! Actually, I never remember us rolling every ECO phase and even if we were suppost to then we forgot!




Mardonius -> RE: Stopping American Trade (10/21/2009 1:16:10 PM)

Hi Bresh:

You are correct if one reads the rules in isolation or as a list of things to do for the conduct of the game.
However, the EiA rules, unlike most rules, are a list of things to do for the conduct of the game in a step format that is iterative (repeats) with every repetition of the mentioned cycle. So everytime one comes to any part of any phase, one can (or must) do each of the things that are listed in the step functions. In the Economic Phase, Money Collection by Trade Step, Great Britain CAN automatically stop the American Trade each go. If GB elects to stop the American Trade each MOney Collection by Trade Step, then they must toss the die as noted above.

Any specific deviation from this everytime a step recurs methodology is noted (Spanish Gold Convoy or Ottoman Tribute).


I hope this clears things up.

best
Mardonius



Mardonius -> RE: Stopping American Trade (10/21/2009 2:19:51 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Marshall Ellis

As in case of the NFL play review, I need some overwhelming evidence to overturn! LOL! Actually, I never remember us rolling every ECO phase and even if we were suppost to then we forgot!



Hi Marshall:

I appreciate your attention here. I understand how a group or groups might have missed this rule (and others), as if read in isolation of the step sequence, it is easy to miss. I have already pointed out the iterative step function of the rules above so won't readdress that tack here, though I think it is by itself convincing. So please look at it if you have not already.

From another tack, look at the historical situation. There was a big risk to UK and European Commerce from an American War. This risk did not appear just once, the pressure and diplomatic pressures to stop interfering with US Trade were a large issue in the many US and some UK circles until such time as the war did result. The game recreates this by having the chance of a war starting occur every time the UK player elects to stop (or seize, as he gets the trade) each economic phase.

Also look at the math. The way things are now, mathematically it is a no-brainer to stop US Trade fro at lest France as the risk is very small and the gain is large (6 trade lost by France; 6 gained by GB = 12 net income difference). For a 1 in 6 chance of losing 15 Money the decision is not even close. One would have to have a chance of losing $72 (6 times 12), for this to be a breaken decision. And this decision is based on only a one run of the equation. The ease of the decision is far greater as the $57 average risk return does not occur just once, but every time an economic phase comes up. So why woudl anyone not stop France's Trade?

However, if the risk comes up every turn and that risk of losing $15 and the risk to the coalition allies and neutral of losing their American trade is there every economic phase (say Prussia loses $6, Russia $6 and Austria $6 and Turkey $4 and Spain $6 as well) , then the Stopping US Trade becomes a very big decision and an vital aspect of the game.

I woulkd think that the iterative layout step methodology of the rules, the math, and the vital aspects would provide you with your overwhelming evidence. What is more, the NFL rules were not decided by one man. Once these things are nailed down, then yes, I woudl agree with your overwhelming precept. But they are not. This game -- the EiANW -- is still in the developing stages, which I think you may agree with.

Respectfully,
Mardonius




Jimmer -> RE: Stopping American Trade (10/21/2009 9:49:31 PM)

Mardonius is correct. Each of the sub-steps occurs because the previous sub-step was invoked. Since the whole section occurs each econ phase, that means the roll has to happen then as well. The only way to think otherwise would be to assume it happens once for all time. But, that's nonsensical, since it's smack in the middle of the section on economics. In order to hold to the "once for all time" thinking, one would have to assume that there is also only one economic phase for all time, which clearly is not correct.

Another quesiton is what happens if GB re-allows American trade with the same enemy or a different one? The answer to this is also clear, once it is understood that the steps occur in succession: The roll is made during an econ phase if and ONLY if GB stops American trade with one or more enemies THAT TURN.

Examples:

GB stops A-trade with France in March 1805. She makes one roll. If a 1 pops up, A-trade is stopped for everybody (plus the other negative ramifications).

In June, GB manages to be at war with both France and Spain, and she stops A-trade with both. In this instance, she rolls again, and if the roll is 1 or 2, A-trade is stopped for all.

In September, having succeeded at both rolls in previous quarters, GB decides to stop risking damage and doesn't block A-trade with anybody. No roll is made.

In December, now fed up with her enemies and friends alike, she stops trade with both France and Spain again. This time, she rolls trying to get more than a 2.

Etc.

NOTE: A corollary question can arise: Do other nations collect their A-trade in the same econ phase in which GB started a war with America? When one realizes the sequential nature of the steps, the answer is obviously yes, they do collect it, because this step comes prior to the war/no war step. For the last time (until GB settles the war with America), they collect A-trade.



Mardonius -> RE: Stopping American Trade (11/5/2009 1:15:41 PM)

Marshall:

I heard back from Harry Rowland who heard from Greg Pinder the following:
"Gidday...,

Greg's just got back to me and says that GB got to keep rolling every quarter until war starts.

Regards
Harry Rowland
ADG"

I won't belabor the points I posted earlier as well as they clearly did not convince you. However, this interpretation from the writer of the EIA rules is conclusive and incontrovertible. Please change the roll for the possibility of an American War to once an economic phase.
best
Mardonius



ndrose -> RE: Stopping American Trade (11/5/2009 1:45:02 PM)

I agree with Mardonius. It makes no sense, either historically, or in terms of game balance, or by the way the sequence of play is set up, for GB to be able to stop trade forever with a one-time risk.



easterner -> RE: Stopping American Trade (11/5/2009 2:46:18 PM)

I concur. If Britain stops trade you roll. If next Eco it stops trade you roll. Rule says you roll when trade stopped. Each Eco is a separate event and GB can allow trade on some turns. It is used as a bludgeon to coerce the uncooperative and punish the enemy.



NeverMan -> RE: Stopping American Trade (11/5/2009 4:20:16 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Marshall Ellis

As in case of the NFL play review, I need some overwhelming evidence to overturn! LOL! Actually, I never remember us rolling every ECO phase and even if we were suppost to then we forgot!




Overwhelming evidence? Like the rules?

It's pretty clear. If, during the Eco Phase (which happens every 3 months) GB chooses to stop US trade, it must then roll. Pretty plain english, IMO.



Marshall Ellis -> RE: Stopping American Trade (11/5/2009 10:43:34 PM)

Mardonius is correct BUT you are not Neverman :-) The rules are NOT clear about rolling each turn but the clarification from Mardonius through his research is clear and this has been changed. Instant replay does work LOL! Mardonius produced overwhelming evidence.





NeverMan -> RE: Stopping American Trade (11/6/2009 12:30:22 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Marshall Ellis

Mardonius is correct BUT you are not Neverman :-) The rules are NOT clear about rolling each turn but the clarification from Mardonius through his research is clear and this has been changed. Instant replay does work LOL! Mardonius produced overwhelming evidence.





Marshall, it's very clear from the rules that it's a STEP in the ECONOMIC PHASE.

Unless there is only ONE economic phase in the ENTIRE GAME, I don't see how GB only has to roll once.



Marshall Ellis -> RE: Stopping American Trade (11/6/2009 12:39:21 AM)


Ok but you're still wrong. Not clear to me. LOL!





Dancing Bear -> RE: Stopping American Trade (11/6/2009 2:08:14 AM)

On this one, I can say that I don't care who is clear, not clear, etc., only that it will be fixed. Good catch to Mardonius for spotting this.



NeverMan -> RE: Stopping American Trade (11/6/2009 2:26:08 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Marshall Ellis


Ok but you're still wrong. Not clear to me. LOL!





LOL! [:'(]



Marshall Ellis -> RE: Stopping American Trade (11/6/2009 12:39:54 PM)

It has been fixed in 1.08



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