RE: Is There An Editor? (Full Version)

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aspqrz02 -> RE: Is There An Editor? (4/9/2010 6:43:23 AM)

While Hitler was undoubtedly crazy, the main reasons for the problems faced by the German War Economy were not because he was a loon ... they were structural. Wrong sort of industry and/or not enough of it anyway. Lack of resource availability. Equating money with resources (really bad idea, as the communists can tell you ... the Russian ones, anyway).

As for the rest, well, even on the personal level, it wasn't Hitler being a loon, per se, it was the structure of the Nazi state. Hitler may have seemed all powerful, and possibly (depending on who you read) may have been close to actually being so ... or not, but he didn't control everything personally. A lot of industrial control was hived off to various high muckymucks ... for example, Goering had control over a significant chunk of the metals sector so he could manage the Luftwaffe, which meant that it didn't matter how much money the Kriegsmarine (for example) was allocated for their programs, they couldn't buy what they needed unless Goering allowed them to ... and, not being part of Goering's private fiefdom, why should he allow them to have anything other than table scraps (or, really, why should he even allow them to have the table scraps?)

That sort of private empire building was, allegedly, encouraged by Hitler because, paradoxically, it enhanced his personal power ... if there were disputes over the allocation of raw materials or industrial resources, then the parties involved had to appeal to Adolph for a ruling. Balance of Power.

It also explains some of the really crazy decision making that went on as even within overarching fiefdoms such as Goering's there were officials who favoured (for example) different aircraft designers, which is why resources were (mis)allocated to projects that were so "out there" that it was obvious that they wouldn't be ready before the *next* war (a lot of the Horten designs, for example, but there were many other examples.

I guess that I'd have to say that what I have read over the last 15-20 years makes it reasonably obvious that the Nazis were doomed almost from the get go.

It's like that scene at the end of Band of Brothers where they're riding along one of the Autobahns in their trucks while all the German POWs are marching in the other direction, some in horse drawn waggons, and one of the US soldiers yells out something along the lines of "What were you THINKING of?" in response to this obvious disparity (remember, Panzer divisions notwithstanding, only 15% of the German army in WW2 was motorised, Infantry largely walked and their transport was largely horse drawn (in excess of 600,000, IIRC, at the beginning of Barbarossa) ... IIRC the TO&E for a German Infantry Battalion included 3 Motor vehicles (2 Trucks and a Motorcycle?) or some such ridiculously low number, and while the Battalion Commander theoretically had a Horse to ride, attrition normally meant that he walked just like everyone else ... the British and US armies, on the other hand, were 100% motorised/able ...

what were the Germans thinking of [&:][&:][&:])

Phil



Rasputitsa -> RE: Is There An Editor? (4/9/2010 9:13:31 AM)


quote:




That sort of private empire building was, allegedly, encouraged by Hitler because, paradoxically, it enhanced his personal power ... if there were disputes over the allocation of raw materials or industrial resources, then the parties involved had to appeal to Adolph for a ruling. Balance of Power.




It was because Hitler was a power crazed loon that he constructed the Nazi State as competing, inefficient organisations fighting against each other, then thew an unprepared Nation into a World War against the most powerful countries on Earth. Not withstanding all the other unforgettable horrors, how loony does it have to be. The other inponderable is why so many people happily supported it for so long. [:)]



aspqrz02 -> RE: Is There An Editor? (4/9/2010 9:34:58 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Rasputitsa

quote:



That sort of private empire building was, allegedly, encouraged by Hitler because, paradoxically, it enhanced his personal power ... if there were disputes over the allocation of raw materials or industrial resources, then the parties involved had to appeal to Adolph for a ruling. Balance of Power.



It was because Hitler was a power crazed loon that he constructed the Nazi State as competing, inefficient organisations fighting against each other, then thew an unprepared Nation into a World War against the most powerful countries on Earth. Not withstanding all the other unforgettable horrors, how loony does it have to be. The other inponderable is why so many people happily supported it for so long. [:)]


I think it is being too generous to imply that Hitler constructed the Nazi State ... I think that, like Topsy, it just "grew" that way.

From what I know of other Dictatorships (Stalinist Russia, for example ... think Lysenkoism as just one terrible example, or the various "Design Bureaux" for Aircraft (MiG, Yakovlev, Illyushin, Polikarpov etc.) seem to have similar problems ... it's like Churchill said, "Democracy is the worst of all political systems, except for all the others".

As for "throwing an unprepared nation into a World War" ... well, Hitler's plan (he actually did have one, y'know) was that the war was likely to break out in the mid to late 1940's ... maybe even in the 1950's ... and the mid 1940's was when a lot of the German pre-war economic and industrial plans were supposed to come to fruition.

The evidence that we have strongly suggests that his plan wouldn't have worked (it is well known, I think, to anyone knowing anything about the East Front, that the balance of forces was at its peak in Germany's favour in 1941 and that Soviet plans were rapidly going to reverse the picture even in peacetime from that point, regardless of the German industrial plans), but that's making an assessment with 20:20 hindsight that no-one had at the time.

And, of course, Hitler was pretty certain that the Allies were wusses and would back down over Poland, especially when the Nazi-Soviet Pact was revealed, and that there would be no World War as a result. Given the history of Appeasement to that point, it wasn't an insane assessment ... given that Hitler had no way of knowing that Chamberlain had grown a backbone after the Munich Agreement ... so Hitler reasonably thought that he would get Poland (half of it, anyway) and then gobble up/balkanise the rest of middle Europe and, eventually, take on the USSR with no western interference, maximising his chances by not fighting a two front war.

Sure, his assessment was wrong, but it wasn't based on complete insanity.

What was insane was going to war with Russia in 1941 ... and his planners knew it. According to (IIRC) Tooze a number of the senior ones committed suicide because they say that it was a gamble that had almost no chance of succeeding given that the only way it had a chance of doing so was if Germany hadn't been involved in a two front war, a la 1914-18 ...

YMMV of course [:)]

Phil



Naughteous Maximus -> RE: Is There An Editor? (4/10/2010 5:38:31 AM)

Is it possible to see inside the editor and can you tell us what we can and cannot edit?



Obsolete -> RE: Is There An Editor? (4/10/2010 8:33:00 AM)

With so many geniuses on this thread, how come no one can solve America's problems, but they all think they could solve other countries problems?





Banzan -> RE: Is There An Editor? (4/10/2010 9:05:32 AM)

Its far more easy to get a conclusion on a historical "problem" then to a current problem. You will have far mor facts avaible from the past then from current things. :)

In the end, its all opinion based.

If you read Mansteins "Verlorene Siege" (Lost Victories), he still belived of a draw being possible in 1943 (eastern front). While he was a real geniues in mobile warfare, i belive he was caught by "whishfull thinking" when he wrote the book. :)



elmo3 -> RE: Is There An Editor? (4/10/2010 1:12:44 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Naughteous Maximus

Is it possible to see inside the editor and can you tell us what we can and cannot edit?


There is a picture of the editor screen on page one of this thread.



Naughteous Maximus -> RE: Is There An Editor? (4/10/2010 7:09:50 PM)

I know about the editor screen, I was wondering what it was like inside and how do you go about creating new units or even imaginary ones?



Helpless -> RE: Is There An Editor? (4/10/2010 8:54:57 PM)

quote:

I know about the editor screen, I was wondering what it was like inside and how do you go about creating new units or even imaginary ones?


So far editor is the least documented and polished piece of the game. It is very hard to explain it in several sentences. But I hope eventually it could be friendly enough to allow average player to customize and create new scenarios. It won't be too simple though.

Unit hierarchical structure is:
Unit (ex. 8th Panzer Division) ->OB/TOE (ex. 41 Panzer Division) ->Ground Type (ex. Pz IIIh) ->Device (ex. 50mm KwK38 L/42 Gun)

All units are created based on Historical OBs (TOE). So you basically can either define your own OB (TOE) or create some units out of existing ones. Also you can edit all low level data as well, although it would be not recommended. There is quite a few gotchas you should be concerned of.



Great_Ajax -> RE: Is There An Editor? (4/10/2010 10:57:00 PM)

Here's a shot of the unit editor which is used to build your order of battle. You start on an emtpy slot and then click on the 'Type' field and this will bring up your OB Screen. This displays all of the OB templates in the game. You then select your template and you come back to this screen. You rename the unit, fill out the HQ data if its an HQ unit, select nationality, and player side. Click on the button that says 'MOTORIZED' to change between the unit being motorized or horse drawn and this will effect the supply numbers below. The SPECIAL button will toggle your unit flags such as 'SS Elite', 'SS-Non Elite', 'Guards', etc. MORALE is pretty self explanatory. Below that, you can input what experience level, unit size%, ready %, and then a variable % that will randomize those fields. Click REBUILD and it populates the unit with the equipment at the experience level you select. The HHQ button up top determines what HQ this unit is assigned to. You can click the LOC button and this will take you to the map where you can drop the unit on the map. Conversly, you can go to the map, click on a unit and then reclick where you want to reposition that unit. I use the cut, copy, and paste feature a lot.

Trey

[image]local://upfiles/7871/C56774DEBEF346B0A5511F8D963B734D.jpg[/image]



Naughteous Maximus -> RE: Is There An Editor? (4/10/2010 11:27:57 PM)

Thanks for the reply.[:)]



knilli -> RE: Is There An Editor? (4/11/2010 11:42:26 PM)

thank you for the inside screenshot and the description.

referring back to the main editor screenshot:
what can be changed in the cities? production is not access-able in WITE so what changes are then possible to the cities?

and did i understand it right? in theory we are able to change the configuration of the tanks? like introducing our own "pz III" with a 8.8 gun (just an example)? so there would, at least in theory, some flexibility?

another question: is there a limitation on the units we can create? according to the last screenshot, we just create a new unit. so, i could go on and create as many as i would like to have?



Great_Ajax -> RE: Is There An Editor? (4/12/2010 1:18:33 AM)

You can edit any city you want and adjust/add/subtract any production you want to include vehicles, aircraft, supplies, fuel, oil, armaments, railyard, port, etc.

You make any "device" ie weapon system, vehicle, etc. Its all editable.

In the Unit editor, you can create as many units as you have open slots and there aroun 8200 of them. You could make 500 SS Panzer Divisions if you wanted to and I could name them 102nd SS 'Marshall' Panzer Division. You can make your own leaders. I built the 1944 Campaign game out of this editor. You don't need any programming knowledge to make a scenario.

You could create a modern war scenario if you wanted to spend the time making your own vehicles, weapons systems, OB files, etc. You would be limited to the existing map.

Trey



aspqrz02 -> RE: Is There An Editor? (4/12/2010 2:46:43 AM)

So, theoretically, you could do NATO vs. WarPac WW3 scenarios?

Oh my ... <rubs hands together with gleeful anticipation> ... [:)]

That sounds ... super ... [&o]

Phil



Great_Ajax -> RE: Is There An Editor? (4/12/2010 3:01:13 AM)

Theoretically you could but it would take a hell of a lot of work. You would need to do some graphics editing to get the proper vehicle silhouettes and you would be limited to the WItE map.

Trey



aspqrz02 -> RE: Is There An Editor? (4/12/2010 6:32:04 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: el hefe

Theoretically you could but it would take a hell of a lot of work ...


Like, say, WitP:AE [:D]

I'm sure there are some cra ... er, hard working ... gamers out there who might consider taking on such a project ... in their copious free time, of course [:D]

Phil



knilli -> RE: Is There An Editor? (4/12/2010 7:05:24 AM)

@el hefe: mate, thx for your reply! and i am honestly overwhelmed! [&o]
the editors capability is better/more then i had expected! in theory we have again (almost) full freedom!

one more reason to look forward!





jaw -> RE: Is There An Editor? (4/12/2010 1:10:34 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: knilli

@el hefe: mate, thx for your reply! and i am honestly overwhelmed! [&o]
the editors capability is better/more then i had expected! in theory we have again (almost) full freedom!

one more reason to look forward!





If Picasso had included a paint set with his paintings would you have considered that full freedom also?



FM WarB -> RE: Is There An Editor? (4/12/2010 1:20:07 PM)

Thanks for the editor information. It makes this title a must buy.
WWI Ostfront, anyone? (Too bad Napoleon didnt have railroads.)



Great_Ajax -> RE: Is There An Editor? (4/12/2010 1:46:50 PM)

This is the OB EDITOR which allows you to edit TO&E templates. You can set start and end dates and which order the OB upgrades. You can edit the type of equipment in the OB and how many are authorized. This file is not saved in the scenario but in a different set of master files so I am unsure how they get saved. Jim would be able to answer that.

Trey

[image]local://upfiles/7871/91EA108B30A84F7BAD8F6754C7DFE044.jpg[/image]



Great_Ajax -> RE: Is There An Editor? (4/12/2010 1:51:09 PM)

This is the DEVICE EDITOR which is a master file of all of the armaments that make up those individual units/squads. This information is probably saved in a master file and not the scenario file. This list includes every tank cannon, machine gun, aerial rocket, howitzer tube and even lists a pistol and sniper rifle. All of it is editable.

Trey

[image]local://upfiles/7871/DF052E56077B4BE58C442CD26B1B4C04.jpg[/image]



Great_Ajax -> RE: Is There An Editor? (4/12/2010 1:53:42 PM)

This is the GROUND ELEMENT editor in which you can edit/add/subtract all of the individual tanks, squads, airplanes, etc. All is editable again and goes into some kind of master file.

[image]local://upfiles/7871/6EC19379D9384240931713A86EFB611F.jpg[/image]



Great_Ajax -> RE: Is There An Editor? (4/12/2010 1:55:51 PM)

AIRCRAFT EDITOR.

[image]local://upfiles/7871/083AAB9BA60E4588B1AC1ADB27E7332C.jpg[/image]



Great_Ajax -> RE: Is There An Editor? (4/12/2010 1:57:44 PM)

Air Group Editor.

[image]local://upfiles/7871/B769656BB20747F5946B4C3B0EF3B60B.jpg[/image]



knilli -> RE: Is There An Editor? (4/12/2010 2:22:56 PM)

[sm=sign0031.gif] for the screenshots.
you said earlier that there is space for up to 8200 units. how much space is in those aircraft/ground element/device and ob tables? would we need to change existing settings or could we just add new ones?



knilli -> RE: Is There An Editor? (4/12/2010 2:33:58 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: jaw


quote:

ORIGINAL: knilli

@el hefe: mate, thx for your reply! and i am honestly overwhelmed! [&o]
the editors capability is better/more then i had expected! in theory we have again (almost) full freedom!

one more reason to look forward!





If Picasso had included a paint set with his paintings would you have considered that full freedom also?


[&:]
why should i want to have a paint set with a painting? either i like the artist (his style) or not. and this particular decision is mine, there for, i do have full freedom.
but i struggle to follow you a bit.
what has the work of an artist and a paint set to do with a game editor? the main aim for an editor is to edit stuff. the question is, how mighty an editor is. how much it is allowed to change. and it seems that this particular editor will be one of the mightier ones.



Zovs -> RE: Is There An Editor? (4/12/2010 2:35:06 PM)

All this goes without saying that anyone that modified the default master files will invalidate all the scenario's and campaigns that ship with the game which in turn would become unbalanced and any user modified scenario and campaigns would have to go through many months of testing to balance them out.

So if one were to create a World War One or World War Three modified game set, there are things that would be broken and your modified set would probably not make much sense. The primary one being countries like Finland, Hungary, Romania surrendering. I don't think you have the ability to make new countries like Austria-Hungary or NATO and things like that. Also for WWI there is no gas rules and for WWIII there is no nukes.

One thing to remember for the official game is that there are several very experienced researchers/historians working on the OOBs, TOEs and equipment list pulling the data from a large pool of resources so the historically accuracy will not only be there but all the scenarios and campaigns that ship with it will have been thoroughly tested for not only historical accuracy and combat modeling, but for play balancing and a host of other items as well.

Again all this goes without saying.



Great_Ajax -> RE: Is There An Editor? (4/12/2010 6:23:03 PM)

Keep in mind that the included editor is not intended to be an unlimited editor toolset designed to allow someone to build any conflict. While many things may be possible and much of it is editable, there are hardcoded facets that could prevent these custom files from playing out. Some examples are that the Axis minor surrendering rules are hard coded as are the Army HQs with their coloring and much of the AI scripting. I am sure there will be some resourceful folks out there that will try but this editor is not intended to be used outside of developing Eastern Front scenarios.

Trey



FM WarB -> RE: Is There An Editor? (4/12/2010 6:48:37 PM)

I should guess that axis minor ally surrender is based on how the Germans perform. If they are winning in 1944-5 or 1917, they do not surrender.

In any case, such experimentation would only be done using a seperate install or careful file swapping, which I hope are possible.

Where there's a will, there's a way, to paraprase a certain Bohemian corperal. :-)



jaw -> RE: Is There An Editor? (4/12/2010 6:59:33 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: knilli


why should i want to have a paint set with a painting? either i like the artist (his style) or not. and this particular decision is mine, there for, i do have full freedom.
but i struggle to follow you a bit.
what has the work of an artist and a paint set to do with a game editor? the main aim for an editor is to edit stuff. the question is, how mighty an editor is. how much it is allowed to change. and it seems that this particular editor will be one of the mightier ones.


Should you be able to edit the map, the movement rates, the time/space scale, the combat resolution system, the supply system? Do any of those factors possess greater "truth" than the frontal armor rating of a Panther tank or the accuracy rating of a 45mm anti-tank gun? Unless you publish the game as open source the editor is just a toy to allow people to muck with a limited set of values.



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