Forage Map/Forage Ideas (Full Version)

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Marshal Villars -> Forage Map/Forage Ideas (11/8/2009 3:23:28 AM)

Just curious what people think a forage map like this would do to the game.

It is based on everything I think I have learned about warfare in the 1700s from reading about 20 books on the topic in the last 6 months, with a few population density maps (esitimates of 1700 and 1800 densities) used as reference.

You will notice that there are major differences in the Alpine regions (for instance, Tyrolia has a current CoG:EE forage value of 60k, but it has a value of 15k here). Bohemia has uniformly better forage values. Saxony's and Bohemia's forage values are much better representative of the wealth and population density of the region.

It is my opinion that this type of a forage map would bring us much closer to replicating the difficulties and issues in operations of the era.

What are people's thoughts?



Marshal Villars -> RE: Forage Map/Forage Ideas (11/8/2009 3:34:04 AM)

Better Resolution with slightly updated values in Scandinavia, Cracow, and northern Spain.

Note that the biggest change here is probably in the Russian provinces. These experience a significant drop from their current values. However, it should lead to more realistic campaigning in the region.


[image]local://upfiles/32635/CB3BE7F124FD432B8313792CEDDAA18C.jpg[/image]



Anthropoid -> RE: Forage Map/Forage Ideas (11/8/2009 5:47:00 AM)

Seems like a good idea to me. Isn't it already about like that?



Marshal Villars -> RE: Forage Map/Forage Ideas (11/8/2009 11:51:26 AM)

"about"... :)

There are major differences, believe me. :)

In my opinion the current COGEE values in Saxony, Silesia, Cracow, Tyrolia, other mountain economies, and many others, are off the mark and this would help out dramatically. It was campaigning in these areas which again and again had me scratching my head. Also, the eastern European, Hungarian, Russian, and Swedish/Finish values are different. Also note the incredibly rich regions of Flanders, Batavia, Cleves, and the Po river valley (Lombardy and Venice).

Just one example of KEY differences: Tyrolia (an Alpine economy with a very low population density) has a current COGEE forage value of 60k. Fine. But not when compared to some of the richest regions of the period--Bohemia, Saxony, and Silesia, which have many provinces ranging from 20k-30k! These numbers should be totally reversed. In the case of Tyrolia, I can promise you it is just as impassible and sparsely populated as much of Switzerland, but in COGEE, it has no supply restrictions and a forage value of 60k! Yet, Prague, one of the richest and most densely populated regions in Europe at the time has a forage value of 20k!

Another example: The reversal of Jutland and Zeeland (Copenhagen) in terms of their forage values.

Again, the numbers here are in keeping with what I have learned about campaigning in the era and based on two population density maps I managed to find which bracket the era relatively well.



Marshal Villars -> RE: Forage Map/Forage Ideas (11/8/2009 12:06:27 PM)

I also recommend reducing them by 1/3 in the two months before the harvest (June and October in most of Europe--so they would be halved in April and May and in August and September). Or perhaps 1/3 two months before the harvest and 1/2 the month before the harvest.

No one wanted to campaign before the harvest, because the food stocks would be depleted. Finding anything to buy/take was much more difficult then. It is not like they were living in today's western societies with food-o-plenty year round. Most of the time "foraging" was done from local supplies. It was not like the armies went out and "harvested" immature crops, except in the most extreme cases.

Additionally, I would remove the North African supply sources outside of Egypt and also remove one in Hungary.



Anthropoid -> RE: Forage Map/Forage Ideas (11/8/2009 5:36:02 PM)

You're really doing your homework and it all sounds great to me!



Marshal Villars -> RE: Forage Map/Forage Ideas (11/8/2009 7:24:39 PM)

Actually, I would recommend doubling them in the months of the harvest (June and October) and dropping them every month until the final value is about 1/3 of the printed value right before the next harvest. In this kind of case, the values above would simple be "base-average" values.



Mus -> RE: Forage Map/Forage Ideas (11/8/2009 10:57:13 PM)

Is West Egypt really that lush? My impression of Egypt is that only the areas around the Nile (Lower Egypt in COG:EE) and connected to it by canals are arable. West Egypt is mostly desert AFAIK.

The COG:EE map shows the Nile Delta (incorrectly) as part of West Egypt (entire thing should be considered Lower Egypt) but if you look at what West Egypt produces in game the game design seems to acknowledge that West Egypt is a desert, its 10k forage value seems appropriately matched to that as well, so it's just a matter of misplaced art on the map.



Marshal Villars -> RE: Forage Map/Forage Ideas (11/9/2009 1:25:43 AM)

LOL. Mus, good call. I had already changed that after looking at the same things you did. :)



Marshal Villars -> RE: Forage Map/Forage Ideas (11/11/2009 7:46:40 PM)

Version 1 for the AltHist Game

Supply points are the white triangles.

[image]local://upfiles/32635/D20AEF17F23D44258EE55CDD55C432D5.jpg[/image]



Marshal Villars -> RE: Forage Map/Forage Ideas (11/11/2009 8:01:52 PM)

Version 2 for AltHist Game

Supply points are the white triangles and the yellow triangles with black outlines.

[image]local://upfiles/32635/B11255500195423F83E401B976C3B784.jpg[/image]



Marshal Villars -> RE: Forage Map/Forage Ideas (11/11/2009 8:02:45 PM)

Version 3 for AltHist Game...

Supply points are the white triangles, the yellow triangles, and the red triangles.

Particularly interesting about this version is the addition of Krajina, Bessarabia, and Yekaterinoslav because they had massive fortifications with large magazines meant to help run campaigns along western lines.

Luxembourg has also been added because it had a small weapons industry which supplied most of the nations of Europe with MOST of their rifles!

[image]local://upfiles/32635/15EE7F3903F44D6089966E49356E89FD.jpg[/image]



Anthropoid -> RE: Forage Map/Forage Ideas (11/11/2009 9:32:06 PM)

What do the colors of the triangles mean?



Marshal Villars -> RE: Forage Map/Forage Ideas (11/11/2009 10:36:32 PM)

The colors of the triangles means only tha they were added since the last version. Version 1, 2, 3. They are there for me to keep track of what has been added. Other than that, color means nothing. They will either be there, or they won't.



montesaurus -> RE: Forage Map/Forage Ideas (11/11/2009 11:03:03 PM)

One thing I felt was a little out of kilter, was that the Ukraine has historically been the bread basket of Russia. I'm kind of surprised that foraging seems to be so strict there!



Anthropoid -> RE: Forage Map/Forage Ideas (11/12/2009 3:08:44 AM)

yeah why not some higher values around Ukraine?



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