loooking for counter arguments (Full Version)

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bacchus -> loooking for counter arguments (11/10/2009 3:15:45 PM)

Whenever I try and devise a new general strategy I try to figure out all the counter arguments. What a wealth of information the forums can pose so here goes.

1. Why not bypass Davao area earlier on and divert those resources/troops to taking the Oil rich bases in the DEI ealier?

2. Forget PM, take Rabul for a defensive perimeter and divert excess Pacific Forces into taking Bases like Canton Island, Willis Island? It seems that they could pose more of a threat to shipping with the long reach of the Betty's than PM could.

I know Willis and Canton are further from japan and harder to supply, but their location looks great as a foward projection to disrupt Allied shipping... especially early. Granted they will be the prime targets for counter attack, but they could do some serious damage early and/or alter allied shipping lanes dramitically.

I have not played Japan since AE came out, so I was going to get experiance players feedback on these limited ideas....

Thanks

Bacchus



Historiker -> RE: loooking for counter arguments (11/10/2009 3:24:06 PM)

Against AI oder human?



bacchus -> RE: loooking for counter arguments (11/10/2009 3:40:55 PM)

I'm looking more for strategies verses Himan opponents as AI is to an extent predictable. I know some guys out there have tried it verses human and I was trying to picks their brains to see what the negatives are.... like easy for Human to cut off Willis early or leaving Davao area alone spells dissaster for..... reasons.



Mike Solli -> RE: loooking for counter arguments (11/10/2009 3:47:34 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: bacchus

Whenever I try and devise a new general strategy I try to figure out all the counter arguments. What a wealth of information the forums can pose so here goes.

1. Why not bypass Davao area earlier on and divert those resources/troops to taking the Oil rich bases in the DEI ealier?


You can do this but you run the risk of having your opponent cut your SLOC (sea line of communication) using air power from Mindinao. If you can project your air power over Tarakan and Balikpapan, you can prevent the Allied player from pulling oil/fuel from those bases until you take them. Also, keep in mind that if you take them early and the Allied air power is still a threat, they can bomb your industry. It's not going anywhere. It'll produce whether you control it or not.

quote:

ORIGINAL: bacchus
2. Forget PM, take Rabul for a defensive perimeter and divert excess Pacific Forces into taking Bases like Canton Island, Willis Island? It seems that they could pose more of a threat to shipping with the long reach of the Betty's than PM could.

I know Willis and Canton are further from japan and harder to supply, but their location looks great as a foward projection to disrupt Allied shipping... especially early. Granted they will be the prime targets for counter attack, but they could do some serious damage early and/or alter allied shipping lanes dramitically.

I have not played Japan since AE came out, so I was going to get experiance players feedback on these limited ideas....

Thanks

Bacchus


I made the mistake of not taking PM in a WitP PBEM. That was the first chink in my armor. My worthy opponent used PM to great effect bombing Rabaul to the stone age. I downed massive numbers of planes for many months until one month my CAP decided not to fly. He destroyed 398 Japanese planes on the ground (I'll never forget that number) in Rabaul and I never recovered. Eventually, I pulled my remaining air power out to Truk.

Keep in mind that everything will eventually be a prime target for counter attack. The idea is to delay the Allies longer than they were historically delayed. My philosophy is to make my defeat as painful for the Allies as it is going to be for me. [:D]



Graymane -> RE: loooking for counter arguments (11/10/2009 4:20:40 PM)

I have to agree with Mike. The question is, how do you purpose to take the DEI earlier? The allies have significant naval forces that can rock your world if you don't respect them. Betties based out of the PI are what close those down fast. You don't necessarily have to take all of the PI, but you better take some good bases there. If you ignore the PI, it can hold out a long time, it has nice air bases and a lot of planes. Granted, those planes aren't going to do a lot of damage to your shipping, but it can hit other bases and be a nuisance.

PM is more interesting. On the one hand, I don't think you can hold the Solomons or Rabaul without it. B-17s and B-24s flying out of Oz and PM are going to shutdown most ports and AFs in the region. On the other hand, I don't think you can realistically hold PM even if you do take it. Then you are in range of all the bases in Oz for more of the same. Your original idea of just PM is probably the best of a bad lot. I might also give a shot at taking PM if it looks like there aren't significant forces holding it.

The South Pacific strategy is the one that is the most interesting. There is a subtle game change that really weights things in favor of the allies and that is the layout of "gold" islands with 6,000 troop caps (some have a bit higher). You are best to treat these as "rentals" as you will not be holding them if the allies decide to take them. They are much closer to allied bases than Japanese ones and the allies can converge an enormous amount of troops on any of them early on.

BUT, there are a number of islands in the South Pacific that are unlimited in size. Christmas Island, Pago Pago, Suva and Noumea being the most important ones. If you REALLY want to mess with the allies, take Christmas Island and Pago Pago and stick a lot of supplies and engineers there and AS. Build up the forts, then the AFs. You can basically close down shipping that way and force the allies to expend a lot of effort to taking its bases back. Noumea early on is also good cause there is nothing there. Suva does have some troops.



Historiker -> RE: loooking for counter arguments (11/10/2009 4:58:57 PM)

PM is a base like Attu.
The best thing for a Jap player would be to sink it. He doesn't benefit from holding it but rather has problems in keeping it supplied, but if the ALlied player holds it, it'll be very painful.
So the mission is to hold it as long as possible without paying to much for that to deny it to the allied side as long as possible.



Q-Ball -> RE: loooking for counter arguments (11/10/2009 5:17:25 PM)

I pretty much agree with the folks here.

Port Moresby must be taken if you are Japan. You have to create MOATS as Japan. What is a MOAT?

A MOAT is a area where the nearest Allied base is outside P-40 range. That means that until the P-38 is available, the Allied player can only attack your base with unescorted bombers or Carriers. This is key. Port Moresby is a MOAT: Without CV Support, the Allies can't really counterattack you there, because you can shoot down unescorted bombers, or his fleet, any attack would be costly. If he occupies PM, P-40s can cover bomber runs to Lae or Milne Bay, and cover invasion TFs. The Allied player cannot attrite you using LBA accross a MOAT.

I guess you still can have MOATS once the P-38 is online, but it just means you need more distance.

You have to create space between you and the Allies. You need to get beyond arm's length or they can attrite you. You can accomplish this pretty easily accross the entire map with the possible exception of Burma.



John Lansford -> RE: loooking for counter arguments (11/10/2009 7:15:42 PM)

Canton and Baker are deathtraps for whoever occupies them.  They can't be developed into good airbases or ports, and only hold 6000 troops before supplies and disruptions become a factor.  The IJN can't keep the supply lines safe from raiding cruisers out of Pago Pago or Palmyra, and Pearl and Suva are close enough for quick counter-invasions and CV TF airstrikes.

Right now I occupy Canton after the AI and myself traded invasions a couple of times.  The last time it invaded it landed 12,000 troops to take out my reinforced defense battalion.  I then counter-invaded with 2/3 of a Marine division reinforced with an armored battalion.  I had to scramble to reload most of them back off before the supply issue became a factor.  The AI still holds Baker but can't develop it, and only has a garrison and SNLF there, heavily dug in.  IMO it's not worth the blood to take it back from them unless they go to the effort of putting patrol/bombers on it.



Historiker -> RE: loooking for counter arguments (11/10/2009 8:52:23 PM)

It can be worth it - and you've told the reason yourself. The units reconquering it can't be used anywhere else meanwhile. This can be a damn good reason to conquer and defend something



modrow -> RE: loooking for counter arguments (11/10/2009 9:02:33 PM)

Mike,

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mike Solli


quote:

ORIGINAL: bacchus

Whenever I try and devise a new general strategy I try to figure out all the counter arguments. What a wealth of information the forums can pose so here goes.

1. Why not bypass Davao area earlier on and divert those resources/troops to taking the Oil rich bases in the DEI ealier?


You can do this but you run the risk of having your opponent cut your SLOC (sea line of communication) using air power from Mindinao. If you can project your air power over Tarakan and Balikpapan, you can prevent the Allied player from pulling oil/fuel from those bases until you take them. Also, keep in mind that if you take them early and the Allied air power is still a threat, they can bomb your industry. It's not going anywhere. It'll produce whether you control it or not.



Actually, I believe that deep thrusts are more feasible in AE than they were in WitP. If you talk about danger to SLOC using Allied air power, my question is which Allied planes present in the PI and DEI you consider to be effective against shipping in AE. The biggest threat (and a considerable one in fact) seems to be the Catalinas.

In WitP, Dutch bombers scored a lucky hit every now and then, in AE they usually don't - and I have not been more lucky with Australian Hudsons or B17D from the PI so far. The naval attack skills start in the high twenties or low thirties for most level bombers in that area, and you really notice that.

I think the situation relating to city attacks or, more generally, level bombing against land based targets is not quite as bad, but it's still pretty bad. Also, the days when unescorted Allied bombers were difficult to bring down may be gone. Even B17 (D, haven't been able to use any other type so far) that used to be virtually immune to CAP unless it was present in high numbers seem to be vulnerable now (which is something I actually like). Therefore, bombing the industry may be much less effective than you think.

I guess you will just have to give it a try in your game [;)]

Hartwig



Barb -> RE: loooking for counter arguments (11/10/2009 9:58:37 PM)

Bacchus:
I think PM is a must for Jap player as it keeps the "ditch" between the allied fighters and your bases.

As to the small islands along the allied SLOC, they are good as hit and run invasions targets - grab it, put some AV and SNLF or NavGd and get few planes there. They are not worth the defence.
To really point the gun into the SLOC, you should grab one of the major places like Noumea, Fiji, Pago-Pago and defend them with at least a division or two. The allies will come for it but they will need effort, time, supply and fuel which will be lacking in NZ and Australia.



crsutton -> RE: loooking for counter arguments (11/10/2009 10:59:27 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Graymane

I have to agree with Mike. The question is, how do you purpose to take the DEI earlier? The allies have significant naval forces that can rock your world if you don't respect them. Betties based out of the PI are what close those down fast. You don't necessarily have to take all of the PI, but you better take some good bases there. If you ignore the PI, it can hold out a long time, it has nice air bases and a lot of planes. Granted, those planes aren't going to do a lot of damage to your shipping, but it can hit other bases and be a nuisance.

PM is more interesting. On the one hand, I don't think you can hold the Solomons or Rabaul without it. B-17s and B-24s flying out of Oz and PM are going to shutdown most ports and AFs in the region. On the other hand, I don't think you can realistically hold PM even if you do take it. Then you are in range of all the bases in Oz for more of the same. Your original idea of just PM is probably the best of a bad lot. I might also give a shot at taking PM if it looks like there aren't significant forces holding it.

The South Pacific strategy is the one that is the most interesting. There is a subtle game change that really weights things in favor of the allies and that is the layout of "gold" islands with 6,000 troop caps (some have a bit higher). You are best to treat these as "rentals" as you will not be holding them if the allies decide to take them. They are much closer to allied bases than Japanese ones and the allies can converge an enormous amount of troops on any of them early on.

BUT, there are a number of islands in the South Pacific that are unlimited in size. Christmas Island, Pago Pago, Suva and Noumea being the most important ones. If you REALLY want to mess with the allies, take Christmas Island and Pago Pago and stick a lot of supplies and engineers there and AS. Build up the forts, then the AFs. You can basically close down shipping that way and force the allies to expend a lot of effort to taking its bases back. Noumea early on is also good cause there is nothing there. Suva does have some troops.



This is not a bad idea. However, I look upon it as a big gamble for the gains. Any Japanese ship (carrier) heavily damaged in this area will have a serious time making it back to a port. As the Allied player, I look to cripple a carrier far, far from a repair yard. They (Japanese ships) are much more fragile in AE.




Streptokok -> RE: loooking for counter arguments (11/11/2009 7:24:02 PM)

Also taking Mindanao early might be a good thing because Allies spawn reinforcements there in january if im not mistaking...
Or at least if ur taking it later remember to grab more troops because you will need them to conquer it [:'(]



Ketza -> RE: loooking for counter arguments (11/12/2009 1:24:38 AM)

I have found it just as easy in AE to strike deep in the allied lines in the DEI/Java. You just have to be fast and furious and well organized.



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