Re: Re: Re: That is Without a Doubt....

Re: Re: Re: That is Without a Doubt.... (Full Version)

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Egg_Shen -> Re: Re: Re: That is Without a Doubt.... (6/27/2002 10:37:09 PM)
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Gary Tatro [B] Egg_Shen Either the history books your reading are vastly different from the ones that I read or you just have not taken the time to sit down and read about the end of the war. It was not crazyness, it was about saving lives and ending the war. Japan refused to surrender. It was calculated that the death toll would have been astronomical to try an amphibious invations of Japan proper. This was the reason for Heroshima. The bomb was used to save soliders lives and end the war and that is what it did. The US then went in and rebuilt the whole Country. Gave it the industrial foundation to make it into the commercial power that it is today. I see in your profile that you young. But you should still know about the Holocast. It was not propoganda trust me. I have a Grand father that was there in 1945. He has pictures. He almost never talked about it, but when he did it gave me nightmares. I feel that our Country does what it has to do. The alternatives I feel are worse. Genocide, starvation, plague. I am sorry you feel so strongly negative about US. But please remember that the US citizen is just like every other person in the world. They go to work, try to get ahead, raise a family and try to lead a good life. I personally am tired of the rest of the World bashing my Country. The US does so much and what do we get for it. Ridicule, distain and hatred. [/B][/QUOTE] it still stands beside "Concentration Camps" and the Rape of Nanking. There is a reason we don't use them anymore M'kay?:)

Penetrator -> Re: Re: Re: That is Without a Doubt.... (6/28/2002 3:46:43 AM)
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Gary Tatro [B] I am sorry you feel so strongly negative about US. ... I personally am tired of the rest of the World bashing my Country. The US does so much and what do we get for it. Ridicule, distain and hatred. [/B][/QUOTE] Why are some people so sensitive? Egg just mentioned he disagrees with a single thing your country did, and so he feels "strongly negative" about the country as a whole? And is it "bashing", or "disdain and hatred"? Any large and powerful nation does things out of self interest, often trampling on other peoples' in the progress. The USA is no exception. Why is it so offensive to point these things out? Not that everyone must agree.

Orzel Bialy -> Egg_Shen.... (6/28/2002 4:49:37 AM)
has irked Americans by comparing our behavior with that of Hitler. Most Americans would not try to say that we have not done things that were wrong...both in the reasons for those actions and how they were carried out. However, if he wants to compare us to Hitlerhe must know that that will always draw a rebuke...like it or not. While we are not perfect, if it weren't for our industrial capacity and manpower reserves history would be far different...and I don't think it too far fetched to say that the old Eggster could be living in a world that doesn't accord him all the freedoms he envisions in his little dream world. OK, that was a bit sarcastic...and I usually try to remain objective. But if you want to speak your mind you must understand and be ready to accept the rebukes...both mild and strong. It's part of the price of having Freedom of Speech! :)

Goblin -> (6/28/2002 4:55:45 AM)
Take it over to 'The Art of Wargaming', people.

screamer -> (6/28/2002 7:21:16 AM)
egg-_shen It is always hard to view things from a totally other perspective, like the US condemming pal attacks or backing israel might create enemies or basing US troops on ''holy ground''[saudi arabia] will ager some peapole.there is no way to go around it The US is the same as the Roman empire in the early ages, the spanish in the 15century,the dutch in the 17th french in the 18th and british in the 19th all world powers bacxk then, but as you get power alot of others will be jealous and be against you. Sure i oppose a number of US policies, but to oppose the US peapole is riduclous. for the what ifs, the japanese had invaded Ph in december 41, all us ships had to operate from the west coast. doorman very luckily won in the java sea. the germans started new tank development earlyer, and tiger participating in barbarossa. what if the allies never got hands on enigma, and th XXIboats where in cervice a year/6months earlyer

Les_the_Sarge_9_1 -> (6/28/2002 2:48:36 PM)
Nice thread, but I guess I have already been busy enough in "Most Pivtal Batlle of WW2" in the General Forum. If you havent seen it it's worth a look too I hope guys.

Penetrator -> (6/28/2002 7:22:47 PM)
Well I have a "what if" for you dudes. What if Hitler had not been put off, but had launched operation sealion as planned? My guess is it would have succeeded and Britain would have been defeated.

DerC -> (6/28/2002 8:04:10 PM)
If I can just make a small correction.. I remember reading (William Shirer: Rise and fall of the third reich)that the Kriegsmarine could not assemble enough landing craft. Since Hitler hesitated to make the decision to start the preparations for the invasion, the RAF could regroup and would have been strong enough to stop the attack. They actually sunk dozens of the landing craft already assembled at the shores of France during the fall of 1940. Also, the German navy didn't have enough ships to provide support for the landing troops. As for my 'what if'... I couldn't think of anything else except what if operation Barbarossa had been started two or three months earlier? I know, it's been said before and it's not that good. ;)

Gary Tatro -> What if (6/28/2002 10:29:39 PM)
The Germans had read history and remembered that everyone else that had invaded Russia had been decimated by the Russian winter and had prepared accordingly. Proper clothing for the troops, heavy oils and wheel chains for the vehicles. Plows for the roads. They would have never lost momentum or the initiative in winter 41/42.

Kevin E. Duguay -> (6/28/2002 10:42:48 PM)
What if Germany had gone to a war production footing before 1942?

Belisarius -> (6/28/2002 10:55:50 PM)
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Kevin E. Duguay [B]What if Germany had gone to a war production footing before 1942? [/B][/QUOTE] Good point. What if they had match their production to sustain a prolonged war, not just a campaign, already in 1938? brrr

Penetrator -> (6/29/2002 1:13:30 AM)
[QUOTE]Originally posted by DerC [B] I remember reading (William Shirer: Rise and fall of the third reich)that the Kriegsmarine could not assemble enough landing craft. [/B][/QUOTE] Well, sea invasions have been mounted through history without dedicated landing craft. The german army would have got ashore given enough time. The cruxial players would have been the air forces and the british navy (the german navy does not even count as a major player). With the german air force assembled in its entirety giving dedicated support to the invasion, instead of bombing britain, the RAF would not have been able to break through, and the RN would have been decimated by air attack. Methinks.

Gary Tatro -> What if (6/29/2002 1:17:49 AM)
The Germans and the Itallians had taken Gibralter. The Mediteranian would have become Italy's little pond to sail around as they wished.

Egg_Shen -> (6/29/2002 6:09:06 AM)
Egg Shen.....EGG SHEN!!!!:mad:

tracer -> (6/29/2002 8:58:54 AM)
[QUOTE]Originally posted by DerC [B] As for my 'what if'... I couldn't think of anything else except what if operation Barbarossa had been started two or three months earlier? I know, it's been said before and it's not that good. ;) [/B][/QUOTE] [I]I[/I] thought it was! ;)

tracer -> (6/29/2002 9:01:58 AM)
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Egg_Shen [B]Egg Shen.....EGG SHEN!!!!:mad: [/B][/QUOTE] Red rum... [COLOR=crimson]REDDD RUMMM ! ! ![/COLOR]

KG Erwin -> As regards Egg Shen.... (6/29/2002 9:23:14 AM)
...all I can say is "Jeremy's spoken". Everyone knows your name now, so deal with it. My name is Glenn--you know that--defend yourself with logical reasoning or at least well -informed bullsh it. Most of these guys have done that for years. I'm defending you, but I have limited patience. Give it your best shot.

Orzel Bialy -> This there something.... (6/29/2002 10:47:10 AM)
simmering here?....I think I detect a bit a heat building here.:eek:

KG Erwin -> No, Orzel,... (6/29/2002 11:50:42 AM)
...once again, we have a tempest in a teacup. Everyone's entitled to their opinion here, whether it's historically motivated or based on false premises. That's what we do--we evaluate each argument and discuss its merits--and we do it in a civil and dispassionate manner (ha ha) :D That's why this forum is much like the old Roman and present US Senate--we talk a lot and eventually a consensus develops. The only problem we have here is that a majority vote is not tallied, and the subject generally gets off-topic sooner or later. (When in doubt, take the high ground)

Hades -> (6/30/2002 5:08:30 AM)
I do think i have struck a nerve here with so people, I should of never incited this, but since I did keep arguring. Its really funny.

Figmo -> (7/1/2002 3:52:11 AM)
What if Hitler had waited a year to invade Poland and Japan had backed off for a year to calm the Americans. The most interesting thing about the whole war to me is - it started (in Europe) over Poland and the allies gave it to Russia when all was said and done - talk about a sellout. Figmo

Les_the_Sarge_9_1 -> (7/1/2002 5:53:01 AM)
No one "gave" Poland to Russia, they "liberated" it with massive soviet armies. And our opinions about the matter (the opinions of the western allies that is) really had little if any value to the Russians. This was made all to apprent during the cold war. They also imposed their will on every other Eastern European nation and people. And they did it in a way that was hard to protest (well hard to protest and remain breathing). As for Hitler waiting a year. Nope that notion has less value than the swamp land beside the local landfill. Stalin had his own agendas, and Hitler didn't have time to fiddle over waiting for the perfect moment. Hitler could have won in 41, but well someone has to win and someone has to lose. He blew it and paid the price.

Figmo -> (7/1/2002 6:26:10 AM)
Agreed about Poland - and by the end of the war the Western Allies were willing to convenently forget a lot because they were tired of war. The other part was just a "What-If" however unlikely. :) Figmo

rlc27 -> No atomic bomb et al (7/1/2002 1:00:21 PM)
What if...the US had never developed the atomic bomb (and neither did anyone else--put that in your egg roll :p ) . What would have been the result of operation Olympic? Would we have really seen middle-aged Japanese women attacking invading GI's with wooden spears on the beach? What kinds of casualties would we have seen? Would there have been more mass suicides like we saw in Okinawa? What if the above were true and Japan had launched the third wave attack on Pearl, and they had more/better replacement aviators available to cover losees, and they hadn't lost four fleet carriers at Midway? And what about if Germany had completed the Fuhrer-class battleship and its own fleet carrier program, and Doenitz had gotten his wish to have more submarines? What if they were into sharing their tank technology with Japan, which then produced the Mitsubishi version of Tiger I's and Panthers? What if Daimler had merged with Chrysler in 1938? What if Hitler's last name had been Schicklegruber?

NaKATPase -> (7/1/2002 10:30:51 PM)
What if Hitler had decided not to pick on the Jews? (I think Germany would have won the war... just my interpretation of that whole "I will bless those who bless you, and those who curse you I will curse" promise)

Les_the_Sarge_9_1 -> (7/2/2002 12:44:36 AM)
Hitler used the Jews to gain political power. As such, it is unlikely history would know of a person named Hitler in the absence of the depression and the lack of a scape goat people (the Jews). But as barbaric as his notions were towards those people, there is absolutely no reason that his atrocities to the Jewish had any direct influence on the course of the war. Now his policies towards the Ukranian peoples sure had a profound effect on the course of the war. If he had been able to see past if his view, that the slavs were all lesser peoples in his eyes, he would have noticed how little they liked the Russian peoples. Liberating as opposed to conquering that region would have made the capture of Moscow somewhat an in the bag thing in most cases. Just goes to show, politics ideology and commonsense rarely have much in common.

Arralen -> (7/2/2002 2:15:30 AM)
Hitler & the Jews: Confiscated property of those sad victims was used to finance the war (via Swiss and Norway) And that made an huge impact. A.

Les_the_Sarge_9_1 -> (7/2/2002 4:17:54 AM)
Hmmm not a bad point.

Egg_Shen -> Re: As regards Egg Shen.... (7/2/2002 8:59:26 AM)
[QUOTE]Originally posted by KG Erwin [B]...all I can say is "Jeremy's spoken". Everyone knows your name now, so deal with it. My name is Glenn--you know that--defend yourself with logical reasoning or at least well -informed bullsh it. Most of these guys have done that for years. I'm defending you, but I have limited patience. Give it your best shot. [/B][/QUOTE] who what?

Penetrator -> Re: No atomic bomb et al (7/2/2002 9:07:31 PM)
[QUOTE]Originally posted by rlc27 [B]What if...the US had never developed the atomic bomb (and neither did anyone else--put that in your egg roll :p ) . What would have been the result of operation Olympic? Would we have really seen middle-aged Japanese women attacking invading GI's with wooden spears on the beach? What kinds of casualties would we have seen? Would there have been more mass suicides like we saw in Okinawa? [/B][/QUOTE] Well, I have been through this issue over and over, and it is very difficult to discuss it in a rational manner with americans. In the absence of certainties (as in any other "what if" situation), perhaps Occam's razor is the best tool: The most likely explanation is the correct one. The official explanation (we all know what it is) simply does not hold water. For starters, if the objective was to save lives, why the rush? Why not wait the japs out a little longer, at least until after the soviet invasion of Manchuria. This was expected to have a dramatic impact in the japanese leadership, and it did. Secondly, the top leaders of the US armed forces were convinced that japan would surrender soon without a resort to atomic bombing. Especially MacArthur, whose men would have borne the brunt of any invasion was dead set against it, and said so publicly and privately. For these reasons, and others I won't go into, the official explanation is not plausible. It does not make sense and therefore must be considered false if a better one is presented. There is one that is more likely: The Bomb was used in the context of US/Soviet friction, which started for real in the summer of 1945. a) to demonstrate the new weapon to the soviets; and more importantly, b) to bring about a speedy japanese surrender so that potential territorial gains by the soviets on the asian mainland could be countered. So bring it on, anyone who would say such a thing must hate America, revisionist bullcrap, somebody who goes out to make a point like this can't be trusted, yaddayadda. I have heard it all before, and I don't give a rat's hindquarters.

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