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KG Erwin -> This thread is in the Hall of Fame? (7/7/2002 3:04:00 AM)
Well, OK, but we're getting into science fiction, what with Germany getting the A-bomb. IF the "Ragnarok project", or the "Valhalla project", whatever you want to call it, had come into existence, then how would it have been delivered? The V2? OK, then. The first target would not have been London or Moscow. I believe the first would've been New York. This would be "the warning shot", as it were, to force a diplomatic settlement. If the German rocket scientists realized the long-lasting effects of radioactivity, then they wouldn't be stupid enough to unleash it on territory close enough to spread the radioactive "cloud" over Germany.

Les_the_Sarge_9_1 -> (7/7/2002 8:35:24 AM)
The subject of "what if" is always appealing. Usually even the beginner wargamer can participate and feel capable. Of course the topic matter often wanders into the realm of barely realistic. For those that want to investigate some more tangible discussion on "what if" possiblities with an eye to the more credible... I have a book titled (not surprisingly) WHAT IF? Strategic alternatives of WW2 edited by Haorold Deutsch and Dennis Showater from The Emporer's Press 1997 (in hardcover). In spite of the title, it doesn't wander into flights of fancy, but actually breaks down the actual potential variables of the various parts of the war. I have read a great many books, but this one gets my nod as being the best literature on realitic alternative possibilities. When it's all said and down, many of the What Ifs will always be just hindsight based musings of pure fantasy to some extent. Most of history was not planned in the slightest. It was never deliberate, and assuming the participants were making concious choices is just not going to wash. Sometimes very bad ideas had very favourable results in retrospect. Good ideas don't always have benefitial results. Being at the wrong place at the right time is the same as being at the right place at the wrong time. Brilliant Generals are often just individuals that were lucky to be at the right place at the right time. And often it was not their chosing that put them there, but anothers.

rlc27 -> Zen and the art of SPWAW & history (7/7/2002 11:10:31 AM)
Being at the wrong place at the right time is the same as being at the right place at the wrong time. Sounds very zen! Especially in a context like when you've got a King Tiger, on a hilltop, and your opponent happens to get off a lucky shot from an M4 Sherman with the low velocity gun and destroys the King. :rolleyes: But seriously, if New York had been the prime target for Germany's A-bomb, what would the delivery system have been? Sure, the V-2 was sophisticated enough that it could regularly hit London, and especially when used in vast quantities it was a good terror weapon (if there is such a thing as a "good" terror weapon). However, without sophisticated intertial guidance systems, computers and whatnot, I don't see them as being able to hit NYC, which is a lot further away than London or even Moskow. Look at how innaccurate the Iraqi Scud missiles were during Desert Storm, and there we are talking at least 1960's technology. Another way would have been if Germany's long-range bomber program came through, which it didn't, or the Graf Zeppelin was completed and somehow loaded up with naval bombers and brought to within striking distance of NYC, and even then I doubt there would have been bombers with a payload capacity large enough to carry the bomb--remember, it took B-29's (!) to carry the US A-bombs to Japan. Finally, even if Germany did have a long range bomber capable of striking the US, would they have been able to penetrate US airspace? Especially if, say, the US had the later version Mustang, Black Widow, etc, by that point--say 1944? The only way I could see it having been feasible would have been if Germany had developed heavy jet bombers capable of flying at 35,000ft+ earlly in the war, say 1940-42 or so, and had made the Me-262 capable of long, long-range escort missions. Or alternatively, had come up with a bomber which flies in ocean ground-effect like 50 feet above the waves like that Russian number from the 60's. But I guess they could have developed a super-U-boat that could have launched V-2's from right off of Long Island. I nominate Jurgen Prochnow to play the tense, sweaty captain. And perhaps Denzel Washington to be the executive officer... :p

Hades -> (7/7/2002 11:14:14 AM)
Well the japs had a carrier sub and if they had traded tech with the germans I think it wouldn't be that hard to make a missle sub.

rlc27 -> (7/7/2002 11:32:35 AM)
True, true. Probably the Germans could have come up with a carrier sub by themselves, too. My issue is with the guidance systems, mostly. Launching a V-2 from a base in Denmark or Holland is one thing, when it only has to go like 40 miles to hit London. But from the rolling mass of a sub? Especially with no computer or onboard guidance system to compensate for wind, etc--plus the bomb was extremely heavy, and I don't think (not sure) but weren't the V-2 payloads pretty light?

Hades -> (7/7/2002 1:03:30 PM)
Well so you sail into a bay or cove and launch. That would be calmer. Might not be deep enough though.

KG Erwin -> OK, let's take "What if" to its logical ? extremes... (7/7/2002 1:28:31 PM)
This was done in some classic "Saturday Night Live" skits. Anyone remember Dan Aykroyd as "Uberman"? What if Superman had fought for the Germans? "Uberman" takes Stalingrad! What about "What if Napoleon had B-52s at Waterloo?" Come on, the nuclear weapon issue for Germany belongs in that same absurdist category. What if the nuclear carrier "Nimitz" found itself off Pearl Harbor on 12/7/41? Oh, yeah, that happened in "The Final Countdown". Remember that film, anyone? It even had Kirk Douglas in it.

Les_the_Sarge_9_1 -> (7/8/2002 4:03:02 AM)
I am wondering if anyone was even interested in that book I mentioned:confused: Oh well. I have met lots of gamers, some are the comic book loving sort while others are more interested in boring text books.:)

Hades -> (7/8/2002 4:05:39 AM)
I would like to find that book Les. Didn't Con Trotter from PC gamer do an actical on it?

rlc27 -> (7/8/2002 5:56:25 AM)
I like your book Sarge. I just haven't yet read enough books about the REAL WW2 to justify reading about fictional outcomes! I'll add it to my list, though! :)

Les_the_Sarge_9_1 -> (7/8/2002 5:57:43 AM)
Hades I got my copy of that book not so long back through the Military Book Club. I think it is something of an on again off again offering with them. You might be able to locate it through them. They have a web site but it is not my idea of a very efficient site. All I can say is, the book blew me away with how the material wasn't even remotely science fiction material (it has an air of accuracy that is plainly obvious to a well read military fan). I consider it one of my primary references when the subject of "could it have been much different" enters the picture. The particulars in my first post should give a decent sized bookstore the needed info in ordering it as well.

G_X -> (7/10/2002 12:51:45 PM)
I've skimmed the book Les, I thought it was pretty good for being a What If scenario type book I'm not terribly interested in all this, but I do have a great What-If What-If Mexico had've invaded the US 2 days after D-Day with German assistance? I don't know any real figures, but I think that America wouldn't have had the resources in Texas to repell any kind of major assault. Also, to my knowledge, Hiroshima and Nagisaki were picked because of their Strategic Value...neither of them were massive cities really, that's why the damage was almost complete. Also, to my knowledge, despite the fact that German's tried it over London, Stone (Which those expensive appartments were) Doesn't burn nearly as well as the paper-and-wood slums that were bombed in Tokyo. During the Blitz many Fire-bombs were dropped on London, and usually thanks to helpful Londoners, they were put outbefore they could spread. Just my tidbits of knowledge on the Subject.

Les_the_Sarge_9_1 -> (7/10/2002 10:36:00 PM)
Hello gang just reading a new book I got the other day (The Universe and Everything). From Stephen Hawking (yes THE Stephen Hawking, if you don't know that name odds are you don't like science much either hehe). In reading it a further twist on the German bomb surfaced. You see much of the work done in nuclear science was rooted in the science being studied by such well known persons as the well known name of Einstein, (yes the E=MCsquared guy), as well as many other names, but I won't list a string of names you might not have encountered before. Einstein was of jewish background (not entirely sure if he was any more interested in being jewish though, than I am of being christian, but that's immaterial). What is important is the mindless intolerance of the time. It was labelled "jewish science". The minds of the time in Germany, were just as willing to throw a brick through a cobblers store front as they were to attack a scientific theory. Could Germany have had the bomb? Well during the 30's they had a great many of the minds that were pivotal in making research breakthroughs. And they gave those minds the same reasons for fleeing as all the rest of the jews. So yet again a twist of fate allowed major repercussions to take place. Einstein ended up in the states along with a great many other persons. They ended up studying outside of Germany, and as a result, the Germans were denied the brilliance of these persons. The loss of these great minds was perhaps the deciding factor in history not knowing of the German bomb. Hitler never really had quite the chance of making a working bomb afterwards. Remember, technology is the application of what you already know. And you can't apply what you don't have, to make what requires knowledge in advance. The Germans had the jet, but it is unclear if they were going to put a bomb on it any time soon. This is a clear indication, that a good "what if" is more than a study of the military situation in place at the time.

Egg_Shen -> (7/10/2002 10:50:36 PM)
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Les the Sarge 9-1 [B]Ok assuming I read the post correct... 100 Mile House is from Nazi Germany? Can you be a bit more exacting. As there is currently no such place (thank god), I am assuming you have chosen that for "whimsical" purposes? unquote... Would likely get you quite thoroughly hospitalised in almost any country BLah blah balh etc...t. [/B][/QUOTE] You are a product of your own propaganda. hey I'm baaaaaack :mad:

Les_the_Sarge_9_1 -> (7/10/2002 11:45:51 PM)
Well as they say, every family has one, guess Egg is ours. Still he does seem to be a harmless distraction. Now if I can only figure out his pointless posts I might be able to more easily understand him....or do we need too:D

rlc27 -> (7/10/2002 11:54:57 PM)
Hey Egg are you back to 100 Mile House? How did you get there?

Egg_Shen -> (7/11/2002 12:01:50 AM)
[QUOTE]Originally posted by rlc27 [B]Hey Egg are you back to 100 Mile House? How did you get there? [/B][/QUOTE] wASN'T eASY!!:cool:

rlc27 -> The Mystery of the Egg is Solved (7/11/2002 12:14:28 AM)
Well guys, our friend Egg here is a citizen of British Columbia, Canada. That's where 100 Mile House is! :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :rolleyes: :p

Egg_Shen -> Re: The Mystery of the Egg is Solved (7/11/2002 1:13:14 AM)
[QUOTE]Originally posted by rlc27 [B]Well guys, our friend Egg here is a citizen of British Columbia, Canada. That's where 100 Mile House is! :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :rolleyes: :p [/B][/QUOTE] good to know we are friends:) I thought you were mad at me :( I think everyone is my friend here now right?:confused: I've been good lately haven't I?

Egg_Shen -> (7/11/2002 3:00:05 AM)
and my name is Egg Shen!! Not EGG :mad: .... ...:o :D hehe

rlc27 -> (7/11/2002 4:20:13 AM)
Egg_Shen, we are all friends here ;) Anyway, to get back to the original purpose of this thread, I have a "what if" that I originally saw in Talonsoft's Rising Sun--what if Japan had followed up the attack on Pearl Harbor with a lightning invasion of the west coast of the USA, using naval artillery support from various battleships? A likely target--or at leat the one they've got in the game--is a less densely populated area of Washington state. The whole point of the invasion, I surmise, would be to so demoralize the US that a quick truce could be negotiated to get the US out of the war and allow Japan to consolidate the East Asian Coprosperity Sphere. Re: Mexico invading--I'm not sure of any stats, but it seems logical that the vast majority of US troops were at the time deployed overseas. I wonder, though, if Mexico had at that time an infrastructure that could support an extended campaign into the US?

Hades -> (7/11/2002 5:51:14 AM)
I doubt Mexico would be able to invade. I don't know anything about the Mexican military but I doubt they had anything like the Sherman, and Texas is all flat. It wouldn't be hard to use an armor divsion and just encircle the whole invasion force or use spoiling attacks to sap the strength out of the advance. Plus most of Texas is wonderful defense ground.

mogami -> Mexico (7/11/2002 1:34:21 PM)
Hi, Just guessing but I would be willing to bet that at no time were there fewer american troops in county USA then would outnumber Mexico. There were I think 4-5 Divisions of Nat Guard always on West Coast. Each States Nat Guard retained units not on Federal service and all the training bases contained a sizable amout of trained and experiance troops/pilots/what nots to form a cadre for use in emergancy. With the national RR then the movement of newly produced AFV/AC/Arty to any where threatened by Japan or other country would not have been a problem. Here is a scary fact. Prior to the Soviet Union becoming involved in the war the US planned to raise 1000 infantry regt's. It never had to, instead the USA gave to allied nations enough material/cash to raise and equip 555 Tank divisions (figure out what it would cost to raise and equip 555 Tank divisons and the USA gave away more then that) and beyond what was given away the USA out produced every single nation combined including our allies. Whats more the USA did not reach maxium output. There are other countries of course with larger populations but they suffer from not being able to support the percentage of the population as military units or can not afford to lose the trained/skilled workers that also make the specialized troops needed in war. The USA in WWII left a large number of persons out of military service because they were not needed. (they could have been used had the need been there. A very large number of trained and combat veteran americans in their late 30's to mid 40's were at home (WWI vets) They certainly could have formed a defense.

Hades -> (7/11/2002 6:32:36 PM)
555 tank divsions!!!!! Thats gotta cost billions upon billions. Maybe not the much but still. WOW!!!

Curieus -> Costing much.. (7/11/2002 8:07:14 PM)
but not all costs were borne by the USA. Many of the tanks (if not all?) sent to the UK were lend/lease tanks. Not always were the americans paid in money, they also were paid in territory (iceland and others). While i am sure that the US gouvernment has given many tanks for free, the benificiary probably was not the UK. I expect the major beneficiaries to be the USSR and some overrun countries without resources (except for men) like Poland. I expect that countries like France and the Netherlands paid for at least part of the materials with resources from colonies (for france that probably became possible after the fall of Vichy or liberation of Paris, for the Netherlands, the oil refinery at curacao and the bauxite mines in Surinam were great revenue providers).

Culiacan Mexico -> Re: Zen and the art of SPWAW & history (7/11/2002 8:56:08 PM)
[QUOTE]Originally posted by rlc27 [B]The only way I could see it having been feasible would have been if Germany had developed heavy jet bombers capable of flying at 35,000ft+ earlly in the war, say 1940-42 [/B][/QUOTE]If Germany has a jet power heavy bomber n 1940-42 they probably don't need 'Nukes'.

Les_the_Sarge_9_1 -> (7/11/2002 11:05:33 PM)
The only way I could see it having been feasible would have been if Germany had developed heavy jet bombers capable of flying at 35,000ft+ earlly in the war, say 1940-42 If Germany has a jet power heavy bomber n 1940-42 they probably don't need 'Nukes'. **** good point of course, some "what if" statements become silly when you stand back and really look at them :D If Germany had had heavy jet bombers at that early stage of the war, their opposition wouldn't be much opposition. And Nukes would have been a something hardly necessary.

Hades -> (7/11/2002 11:15:29 PM)
In a paralel universe a group of wargames are debating what would have happened if the Thousand Year Reich hadn't devolped the bomb. One gamer says, "I think the Russians might have won." and the whole board goes crazy saying maybe but NO!!! Just a theory.;)

Kevin E. Duguay -> (7/12/2002 1:47:11 AM)
With the scientists that Germany had durring the War she had no chance of making an atom bomb. After the War the very scientists that were working on the project were questioned extensively. The head of the German program even claimed that he and others sabotaged and slowed down their own efforts so that Hitler would never have access to an atomic weapon. But when asked about the tehcnical aspects of their work it was found that all their assumptions about how to build "The Bomb" were compleatly wrong. They were useing the wrong formula and had no chance of making a working atom bomb. _________________________________________________ "Small change, small change. One Parisian night will soon adjust these losses" Napoleon, while turning over the corpses of French soldiers with his foot, after the French victory at Eylau over the combined Russian and Prussian forces.

G_X -> (7/12/2002 7:00:47 AM)
OK, About mexico: Do you HONESTLY believe anyone would have been prepared for Mexico to invade Texas? If they did it today would YOU be suprised? If you say no then you're lying :p And actually Mexico's army isn't that bad, and I highly doubt there were enough standing US Army regiments left in the states to outnumber an entire Mexican invasion. If there were, I would be pissed that there weren't more troops in North Africa and Western Europe then, the war might've been over faster. Does that honestly make sense to you, think of it in terms of SP:WaW, you have a choice between taking a 2.5k army, and a 5k or so army, and you just decide to take the 2.5k army just because your home base (Which isn't on the map) Needs to have troops at home, even though it's thousands of miles away from the fighting, and the opposition has almost no chance to invade. Sure, I see having NG Regiments being called up to defend the West Coast, But I doubt there were a large number of standing US Army Divisions in Texas at the moment. I don't think that much of Texas has "Wonderful Defensive Terrain", but that may be because of different tactical viewpoints, so I won't debate that. And even a Tank Division would have a hard time totally encircling an army that's perhaps 3 or 4 divisions large of infantry. Or maybe your Tank Division is an extremely elite fighting force. Uhhh...if it is I'm wondering why it's not in North Africa or over in Normandy helping the other US troops. Perhaps you know something I don't ( :confused: ) Onward! Kevin: That's disturbing in and of itself, what if those scientists had've been dedicated and Loyal to the Fuhrer? Then Germany might've gotten the bomb after all. Hades: In a Parallel universe there's a bunch of wargamers arguing over what would have happened if Stalin hadn't stolen the plans for the Nuke from the Americans, they'll be speaking Russian by the way ;)

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