quote:

ORIGINAL: Cuttlefish

As forum posters go I am fairly mild-mannered. My philosophy is to live and let live, that there is room for opinions other than my own, and so on. Yet I come before you all today to propose the formation of a lynch mob.

We don’t have to do a lynching, of course. Tarring and feathering my proposed victim and running it out of town on a rail will do. My proposed victim? The term “fanboy.”

This word (and its variants, AFB, JFB, etc.) appears to me to have lost any usefulness it may once have possessed. Its main function now is to impede clear thought and the courteous, intelligent exchange of ideas. It seems that the first refuge of many of us, when confronted with an idea that runs counter to our own, is to cry “fanboy.” This creates the false impression that there are two camps of people involved in improving and playing the game, JFBs and AFBs. Or, as I think many see it, “rational, impartial me and all the fanboy idiots who disagree with me.” Because, of course, few if any of us see ourselves as fanboys. It is the dolts on the other side of the issue who are obviously fanboys.

I usually play Japan and my AARs have all been from the Japanese side. For various reasons I might be identified as a Japanese fan boy if anyone is. Yet I certainly don’t think of myself that way. I think of myself as someone interested in a good game. I suspect most of us see ourselves the same way.

In short, it is a label. And it is sometimes easier to use the label than to stop and think that someone might have good or at least understandable reasons for disagreeing with us.

So death to “fanboy.” My suggestion: the next time you are tempted to use the word (or one of the aforementioned variants, especially the detested “fanboi”), stop. Attempt to compose your cunning and persuasive argument without using it. Think of it as a crutch. Throw away the crutch and let your arguments stand on their own.

I really, really do not intend to single anyone out here. The use of the word is pervasive and it is often used in friendly kind of way. But for the good of all of us I think its use must stop. Join me and help put an end to its blight upon the forum.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Cuttlefish

As forum posters go I am fairly mild-mannered. My philosophy is to live and let live, that there is room for opinions other than my own, and so on. Yet I come before you all today to propose the formation of a lynch mob.

We don’t have to do a lynching, of course. Tarring and feathering my proposed victim and running it out of town on a rail will do. My proposed victim? The term “fanboy.”

This word (and its variants, AFB, JFB, etc.) appears to me to have lost any usefulness it may once have possessed. Its main function now is to impede clear thought and the courteous, intelligent exchange of ideas. It seems that the first refuge of many of us, when confronted with an idea that runs counter to our own, is to cry “fanboy.” This creates the false impression that there are two camps of people involved in improving and playing the game, JFBs and AFBs. Or, as I think many see it, “rational, impartial me and all the fanboy idiots who disagree with me.” Because, of course, few if any of us see ourselves as fanboys. It is the dolts on the other side of the issue who are obviously fanboys.

I usually play Japan and my AARs have all been from the Japanese side. For various reasons I might be identified as a Japanese fan boy if anyone is. Yet I certainly don’t think of myself that way. I think of myself as someone interested in a good game. I suspect most of us see ourselves the same way.

In short, it is a label. And it is sometimes easier to use the label than to stop and think that someone might have good or at least understandable reasons for disagreeing with us.

So death to “fanboy.” My suggestion: the next time you are tempted to use the word (or one of the aforementioned variants, especially the detested “fanboi”), stop. Attempt to compose your cunning and persuasive argument without using it. Think of it as a crutch. Throw away the crutch and let your arguments stand on their own.

I really, really do not intend to single anyone out here. The use of the word is pervasive and it is often used in friendly kind of way. But for the good of all of us I think its use must stop. Join me and help put an end to its blight upon the forum.

quote:

“A fan, aficionado, or supporter is someone who has an intense, occasionally overwhelming liking and enthusiasm for a (fill in your thing here)”

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jim D Burns
Ask and you shall receive Cuttlefish. See Termy managed to insult a whole slew of people without using the dreaded “fanboy” word.

quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffK

This term can also be used to signify an Allied or japanese player(most of the time) as against one who plays both sides evenly.

As such it is shorthand.

If you take offence at being labelled an AFB or JFB then you are getting thin skinned.

Of course we could always come up with better names for those who idolise the evil empire which came up with Changi, the Bataan Death March & Unit 731 for starters.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Q-Ball

Cuttlefish, I couldn't agree more. I find alot of the posters on this forum to be gentlemen, and reasonable towards improving a great game to be even better. I understand Jim Burns's point around labels, and I don't want to chase anyone off this forum either even if I think they might be less than civil, as I like the passion sometimes. But making a point, and then being called a "JFB" or "AFB" is getting tiresome.

Most players prefer to play one side or another, but that doesn't make you biased. I prefer Japan generally, though I am playing Cuttlefish as Allies, and playing the other side is something I highly recommend if you want to be a good player.

I have no idea what Nemo said as I have trouble with big words, but I think it was "the Internet allows people to be less civil to each other than they would IRL", or "there are alot of a**holes on the internet", something like that![:D]

quote:

ORIGINAL: Q-Ball
But making a point, and then being called a "JFB" or "AFB" is getting tiresome.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Nemo121

I applaud the sentiment but most people in online discussions don't really tend to operate at much above a cavedweller psychological level of personal and external insight.


Pessimistic? Yes, but also experientially and even evidence-based. There's a lot of interesting work being done on the social psychology of internet groups which seems to show this sort of emergent behaviour arises naturally time and again.


Even the whole "this game is great" .... "I feel betrayed because of this minor error which is a HUGE PROBLEM which renders the whole game useless and MUST BE FIXED. You have RUINED MY LIFE !!!!!" dichotomy which goes on here is analogous to the whole leadership myth thing which goes on with human groups. Humans tend to look for leaders and then bestow in them capabilities and hopes they don't and can't have. A certain portion remains blind to the difference between what is and what was hoped while others notice it and then utterly over-react swinging wildly from overly faithful follower into implacable enemy. Neither position has the benefit of logic and proportionality but both are highly human and because so few people take the time to realise that their hopes and disappointment are both magnified few people in net ( and other groups ) maintain a more steady course through this cycle.

Of note: the psychology of this leadership myth/cycle is not much different than the cycle which occurs in romantic love--- initially idealised, later realisation that "the other" isn't as one idealised her/him and then lastly either reconciliation to this reality and the adoption of new bond-reasons or the dissolution of the relationship ( ie divorce ).


So, Cuttlefish, bravo but I fear the vicissitudes of psychology will torpedo this particular Hibiki.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Nemo121

I think the biggest problem isn't a single word but the underlying issue which is that many people here ( both developers and players ) invest hugely in the NIHS ( Not Invented Here Syndrome ) and appear closed to opinions or even discussion which runs counter to their own assumptions.

When you get people deriding or refusing to engage with those who are trying to be evidence-based then you have proof certain that there's something rotten at the core.... Sadly all too often people here think that "but my bias says different" trumps the need for rational discourse. Obviously there are also situations where the person arguing the counterpoint is purely reliant on their own bias.


Unfortunately, ever was it so. Humans often aren't rational, open to new viewpoints, tolerant of difference or even, often, particularly nice. This forum is just a microcosm of that with people banding into pseudo-clans, exaggerating differences with others in order to increase the extent to which they "belong" to "their own clan" and projecting out against "the other" that which they find unacceptable within themselves.


I applaud the sentiment but most people in online discussions don't really tend to operate at much above a cavedweller psychological level of personal and external insight.


Pessimistic? Yes, but also experientially and even evidence-based. There's a lot of interesting work being done on the social psychology of internet groups which seems to show this sort of emergent behaviour arises naturally time and again.


Even the whole "this game is great" .... "I feel betrayed because of this minor error which is a HUGE PROBLEM which renders the whole game useless and MUST BE FIXED. You have RUINED MY LIFE !!!!!" dichotomy which goes on here is analogous to the whole leadership myth thing which goes on with human groups. Humans tend to look for leaders and then bestow in them capabilities and hopes they don't and can't have. A certain portion remains blind to the difference between what is and what was hoped while others notice it and then utterly over-react swinging wildly from overly faithful follower into implacable enemy. Neither position has the benefit of logic and proportionality but both are highly human and because so few people take the time to realise that their hopes and disappointment are both magnified few people in net ( and other groups ) maintain a more steady course through this cycle.

Of note: the psychology of this leadership myth/cycle is not much different than the cycle which occurs in romantic love--- initially idealised, later realisation that "the other" isn't as one idealised her/him and then lastly either reconciliation to this reality and the adoption of new bond-reasons or the dissolution of the relationship ( ie divorce ).


So, Cuttlefish, bravo but I fear the vicissitudes of psychology will torpedo this particular Hibiki.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Cuttlefish

Well...I tried.

Just to be clear on one point, though, since some people seem to have misconstrued my meaning here. I do not ask people to avoid using the term because it is insulting or for some vague PC-motivated reason. No indeed. It was merely my observation that the word has become a barrier to intelligent discussion. Used the way that Chickenboy, for instance, uses it in his sig it is a friendly and funny term. But if start a thread to the effect that

(Note: the following claim is being made for example purposes only. I am NOT making this claim. It is merely an example. Please do not respond to this example)

the bombing accuracy of Japanese float planes seems to be too low I might expect someone to post a reply saying that yes, the bombing accuracy of Japanese float planes really was that bad. Someone else might post some counter-arguments and alternate statistics. Discussion ensues. We are all grognards here, we love this sort of thing. But pretty soon (and sooner rather than later these days, or so it seems to me) someone will haul out the "fanboy" term to dismiss the people on the opposing side of the argument and there goes your fun, nit-picky thread about Japanese float planes. It's use seems to signal the descent of a thread into pointless bickering and insults.

Some threads will get there anyway, of course. It's just the nature of debate on the internet.

That's all. Thanks for listening. I am going to go sit in the corner now and hang an "epic fail" sign around my neck.

Cuttlefish
"Japanese destroyer fanboy"

quote:

ORIGINAL: Cuttlefish

Well...I tried.

That's all. Thanks for listening. I am going to go sit in the corner now and hang an "epic fail" sign around my neck.

Cuttlefish
"Japanese destroyer fanboy"

quote:

ORIGINAL: Terminus
You're not the "epic fail" here, CF.

quote:

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve
Perhaps you can come up with a politicaly correct, totally inoffensive replacement word to indicate which side one perfers to play? [:(]

quote:

ORIGINAL: JWE

quote:

ORIGINAL: Terminus
You're not the "epic fail" here, CF.

I’m with Terminus. Definitely not an ‘epic fail’ CF. Agree with you, but also agree with others that say this cannot be expunged. Unfortunate, but not unexpected. Little egos will always whine with little voices on little issues, no matter what ya do. And to make themselves important, they always blame their own inadequacy on some hidden, mystical, opposing fanboism. Sigh.

Unfortunately, we all have to go through puberty, and that’s not pretty, and sometimes it lasts a lot longer than it biologically should.

No worries CF. You get it. Just realize how immature the fanboy thing is, and give the teeny boppers a break. They really are beneath your notice.