RE: Vote for: Beauty and the Battleship (Full Version)

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DivePac88 -> RE: Vote for: Beauty and the Battleship (12/11/2009 11:05:48 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Gilbert

There was no "Le Fantastique class DD" in Marine Nationale but "Le Fantasque class DD" [:)]



Thank you Gilbert for your correction, and the photo, She is a very beautiful 'Tin-can' is She not. [8D]



bklooste -> RE: Vote for: Beauty and the Battleship (12/12/2009 1:51:21 AM)


BB - Bismark , bevelled turrets win.
CV - Taiho
CA - Takao
DD - Akisuki



oldman45 -> RE: Vote for: Beauty and the Battleship (12/12/2009 2:36:51 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: DivePac88


quote:

ORIGINAL: Gilbert

There was no "Le Fantastique class DD" in Marine Nationale but "Le Fantasque class DD" [:)]



Thank you Gilbert for your correction, and the photo, She is a very beautiful 'Tin-can' is She not. [8D]



Sorry but she is not[;)]



DivePac88 -> RE: Vote for: Beauty and the Battleship (12/12/2009 2:44:53 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: oldman45


quote:

ORIGINAL: DivePac88


quote:

ORIGINAL: Gilbert

There was no "Le Fantastique class DD" in Marine Nationale but "Le Fantasque class DD" [:)]



Thank you Gilbert for your correction, and the photo, She is a very beautiful 'Tin-can' is She not. [8D]



Sorry but she is not[;)]




Oh come on Mate, She might be a bit overweight, but She is pretty! [;)]



oldman45 -> RE: Vote for: Beauty and the Battleship (12/12/2009 5:21:02 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: DivePac88


quote:

ORIGINAL: oldman45


quote:

ORIGINAL: DivePac88


quote:

ORIGINAL: Gilbert

There was no "Le Fantastique class DD" in Marine Nationale but "Le Fantasque class DD" [:)]



Thank you Gilbert for your correction, and the photo, She is a very beautiful 'Tin-can' is She not. [8D]



Sorry but she is not[;)]




Oh come on Mate, She might be a bit overweight, but She is pretty! [;)]


Ok you got me there [:)]



RevRick -> RE: Vote for: Beauty and the Battleship (12/12/2009 1:25:36 PM)

There are some really good looking Battleships out there.. but the one which comes to mind for me consistently is this one...



[image]local://upfiles/1228/297DF4FDEEF14F9AB8C8154DEC3E6B8C.jpg[/image]

That's what she and her sisters should have looked like on 07 DEC. Too bad the politicians don't think about anything important until it smacks them in the face.



frank1970 -> RE: Vote for: Beauty and the Battleship (12/12/2009 3:59:01 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mike Scholl


quote:

ORIGINAL: Frank

Prinz Eugen was a little tough cruiser:

1 July 1946: A-bomb test Able. At 0900, a nuclear bomb dropped over a target fleet of ships by a B-29 detonates at 518 feet above the surface. Prinz Eugen is located 1,194 yards from the point of explosion and survives the test undamaged.

25 July 1946: A-bomb test Baker. At 0835, and nuclear bomb is detonated underwater at a depth of about 90 feet. Prinz Eugen is located 1,990 yards from the explosion, and again survives the test with no appreciable damage.




There was nothing "little" about Prinz Eugen, as she exceeded treaty limits by a wide margin. And while a lovely ship, she was a total pain-in-the-butt to keep running. As I recall, the had to be towed most of the way to Bikini after her complicated machinery broke down completely.



This happened only because USN mechanics were incompetent in working with modern machines [:'(]
BTw I donīt know of any naval treaty Germany signed to limit the tonnage of her ships.



fbs -> RE: Vote for: Beauty and the Battleship (12/12/2009 4:29:26 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Frank

BTw I donīt know of any naval treaty Germany signed to limit the tonnage of her ships.




Err.. Versailles?

Thanks,
fbs



Shark7 -> RE: Vote for: Beauty and the Battleship (12/12/2009 4:47:39 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: fbs


quote:

ORIGINAL: Frank

BTw I donīt know of any naval treaty Germany signed to limit the tonnage of her ships.




Err.. Versailles?

Thanks,
fbs


Yep, Versailles. Germany pretty much couldn't have a blue water navy under the treaty that ended WWI. Which explains why the German Navy was no where near ready to go to war in 1939 and was never a significant force during the WWII.



Tiornu -> RE: Vote for: Beauty and the Battleship (12/12/2009 6:43:41 PM)

In addition to Versailles, the Germans were bound by the limits in the Washington/London treaty system upon signing the Anglo-German agreements in 1935-37.
Germany failed to produce a mature navy by 1939 in part because it didn't know what kind of navy to build. Raeder directed massive efforts into building the sort of navy that had proved useless in World War I. If those efforts had gone into a more Jeune Ecole sort of fleet, a more mature force could have resulted.



oldman45 -> RE: Vote for: Beauty and the Battleship (12/12/2009 6:52:48 PM)

In the big scheme of things, would it have really mattered what they built since the war started earlier than the military was prepared for? My friends and I have had this debate many times about the worth of the German navy and what should have been built. I feel they wasted too many resources building anything larger than coastal ships and submarines. They would never be able to compete with the nations that already had a sizable battleship fleet unless they wanted to hold off on the war for several years.



Tiornu -> RE: Vote for: Beauty and the Battleship (12/13/2009 12:17:37 AM)

The Germans had no business building a Mahanian battle fleet. If anyone had failed to notice this, it was pointed out DURING the First World War by Wegener. The Kaiser's admiralty picked a young up-and-comer to counter Wegener's remarks, a fellow by the name of...Raeder, who apparently remained committed to the failed HSF concept. In opting for a more Jeune Ecole approach, the Germans could have spared themselves the trouble of building anything larger than a super-cruiser, something along the lines of the original Scharnhorst design (before she was re-laid as a battleship) but preferably with diesels. Such an approach also makes better use of trained KM sailors, the lack of which was acute at the start of the war. 



frank1970 -> RE: Vote for: Beauty and the Battleship (12/13/2009 8:19:30 AM)

Versailles was finished, when London signed a fleet treaty with Germany.
I didnīt know, that the Washington limits were introduced with the British-German Naval treaty. I thought it was just restricting the absolute amount of tonnage. [&:]



Boozecamp -> RE: Vote for: Beauty and the Battleship (12/13/2009 9:17:44 AM)

At least the IJN could produce a superior design, while cheating the treaties.  The Hippers were 40% overweight and still outclassed by a legal New Orleans CA. 



frank1970 -> RE: Vote for: Beauty and the Battleship (12/13/2009 6:44:03 PM)

Comparing the data of a New Orleans CA and Prinz Eugen, I cannot see the US ship being superior.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Orleans_class_cruiser_%281931%29
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_cruiser_Prinz_Eugen




Tiornu -> RE: Vote for: Beauty and the Battleship (12/13/2009 6:53:42 PM)

The 1937 Anglo-German Treaty starts with a section lifted directly from the 1936 London Treaty regarding warship definitions, and this of course is an outgrowth of the previous treaty definitions including the "treaty cruiser" limits. Then in Article 4, there's the explicit limit on battleship tonnage to 35,000 tons. An appended exchange of letters between Eden and von Ribbentrop spells out some issues with interesting comments on cruisers. It was understood that Germany was entitled to five heavy cruisers (the five Hipper/Eugen ships) but, by a voluntary measure, would agree to give the last pair a battery of guns of light cruiser caliber. You may recall that Lutzow and Seydlitz were planned to carry four 15cm triple turrets; this was part of the diplomacy that coordinated with the Anglo-Soviet treaty, signed at the same time. But after the treaties collapsed, the ships switched back to 8in.
Unfortunately, it's not as easy to find online the British agreements with Germany and the Soviet Union as it is the Washington and London treaties. I'm not sure they're posted at all, but maybe a good search will yield results.



Tiornu -> RE: Vote for: Beauty and the Battleship (12/13/2009 7:03:30 PM)

Regarding the Hippers, I'm not a big fan. The virtues of the design lay in the main artillery. The guns were reasonably reliable and accurate, with good belt penetration. The fire control was good. Protection was also good for the main guns and for the conning tower. The remainder of the design is less impressive. The portion of the hull protected by armor is pretty good, but the armor thickness is surprisingly weak. Most of the armor deck is just 30mm. It is hard to see where the extra 5000 tons went, but some of it went to accommodating a surprisingly large crew. I believe PE carried a larger crew at Denmark Strait than Hood did. PE's propulsion plant was notably troublesome, and the Germans began to see their carrier Graf Zeppelin as ill suited to Atlantic operations in part because she carried the same machinery as PE.
In general, I think German fleet design reached its peak with the Deutschlands, then went into decline.



warspite1 -> RE: Vote for: Beauty and the Battleship (12/13/2009 8:11:31 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Frank

Comparing the data of a New Orleans CA and Prinz Eugen, I cannot see the US ship being superior.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Orleans_class_cruiser_%281931%29
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_cruiser_Prinz_Eugen


Warspite1

The two main problems associated with the Hippers/PEs was the sophisticated - but troublesome - machinery, combined with the lack of range.

All ships are a compromise, but given the type of warfare the Kriegsmarine would be likely to required to participate in (commerce raiding), the lack of range was a surprising choice.





GaryChildress -> RE: Vote for: Beauty and the Battleship (12/13/2009 8:19:44 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: fbs


Every general knows that soldiers like guns and pin-ups, but, alas, as this is a family-oriented forum we can forget the pin-ups part. So, in order to increase the enthusiasm of the brave fighters diligently assaulting Patch 2, I propose we make a list of the sexiest ships in WW2 (which, considering the bunch here, might be just as exciting for some... oh-oh... [:D] )

Cast your vote:

(a) Prettiest battleship
(b) Sexiest cruiser
(c) Hottest destroyer
(d) Most curvalicious aircraft carrier
(e) Bodacious-est what else you want

Cheers
[:D]


A) South Dakota class (saw the USS Alabama up close and fell in love!!)
B) Mogami class (My first 1/700 scale model was the IJN Suzuya.)
C) Allen M. Sumner class (They just look like they mean business)
D) HMS Ark Royal (very curvalicious!)
E) Coolest looking BC has got to be the HMS Hood



frank1970 -> RE: Vote for: Beauty and the Battleship (12/18/2009 6:45:17 PM)

Thanks a lot for the information!




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