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crusher -> (7/1/2002 5:27:03 AM)
as i stated before this thread is in the WRONG forum if you want to fight over names go somewhere else and do it this forum is for game topics.

Goblin -> (7/1/2002 5:42:41 AM)
Wasp is refering to game threads with his complaint. How is that not a game topic?

Sam-I-am -> Not this time! (7/1/2002 6:03:09 AM)
Ya know? Im sorry, but I am getting just a lil fed up with all this "white mans guilt" being shoved down my throat. I refuse to be politicly correct to appease people just because it is the in crowd thing to do. I use "Jap" because "J-a-p" IS short for J-A-P-anese. It does not take a rocket scientest to see how I come about using this abrevation. I am also too lazy to type out the whole word and most important, I cannot spell worth a crap. Im sorry again, but not this time. I feel no guilt. no more from me on this subject.

mjk428 -> (7/1/2002 9:00:10 AM)
Wasp- I have been careful not to use the word in question out of courtesy. I wouldn't want to inadvertently offend anyone. I agree it's not a nice word but I do believe it's acceptable to use it in a role-playing context. OTOH, I don't appreciate being preached to. You're entitled to your opinion, of course. It might have been more appropriate to nicely let someone know that YOU had been offended by a specific post. Instead you've tried to enforce YOUR view with a thread of "NOTICE TO ALL". As for any emnity that may exist towards the Japanese people, it was brought on by their actions. Your comparison to African Americans is insulting to them. They were victims while the Japanese were the aggressors. I'm sick of moral equivalence. While you want us to imagine how terrible it would be for a Japanese person to see a WORD, imagine how the victims of Japanese atrocities would react to this thread. I won't bother to list any atrocities since I'm sure they are well known on this board. You may have meant well but I feel your original post was lacking in wisdom at best and designed to stir up trouble at worst. I'm sorry if I've offended you. Sincerely, Marty K BTW - I find it funny that you have a screen name that could easily be considered offensive. That term is not used as a compliment. - Also, I agree that this thread would be better placed in "Art of Wargaming".

Goblin -> (7/1/2002 9:14:32 AM)
Some of you have crossed the fair is fair line. If any of you had voiced a legitimate concern, you would want to print it without condemnation from the rest of us. Even if you do not agree with Wasp, at least respect the fact that he has an opinion like the rest of us, and the right to voice it. Now you will argue that you have the right to voice yours too, and you do. Wasp has been polite, and we all should too, IMHO.

Goblin -> (7/1/2002 9:18:37 AM)
[QUOTE]Originally posted by mjk428 [B]As for any emnity that may exist towards the Japanese people, it was brought on by their actions. Your comparison to African Americans is insulting to them.[/B][/QUOTE] Comparing the Japanese people today with what happened then is doing the exact same thing. You are insulting them. I am not going to post again on this thread. This was a civil discussion of a valid point of view, and now it is an 'Art of Wargaming' thread, which is the lowest thing I can think of saying.

mjk428 -> (7/1/2002 9:28:04 AM)
[QUOTE]Comparing the Japanese people today with what happened then is doing the exact same thing. You are insulting them. [/QUOTE] So we are all supposed look deep into our souls but let's not ask the same of Wasp? Besides, when I'm on this board or playing a historic wargame, I'm not thinking about the Japanese people of today. As has been previously stated, lets keep things in context. When Wasp complained about the filenames I had enough. Maybe we should remove the letters P, J & A from our keyboards. [QUOTE] am not going to post again on this thread. This was a civil discussion of a valid point of view, and now it is an 'Art of Wargaming' thread, which is the lowest thing I can think of saying.[/QUOTE] That's where it belonged in the first place.

Wasp -> (7/1/2002 10:09:54 AM)
Well, I have never said the Japanese were innocent for what they did through out the war. Personally, I dislike the government of Japan for hiding the whole war by erasing and not teaching the younger generation of atrocities they have committed. Therefore I will not get into an argument over how the Japanese have hurt people because I understand what the Japanese have done to the people of Asia and know what they did was Wrong. Which is the very reason I despise the government of Japan. If you are trying to tell me that I condone Japanese action, I must say that I absolutely do not condone Japanese action during the war and I am not trying to make up excuses for them. Did I not mention earlier in the post about the screen name? Has nothing to do with anything derogatory. If you think that all Japanese are simply bad and evil. It is not true. There are some of us who know the history and feel really bad for what happened then. If one is to speak evil of Japanese, it should be people who were directly hurt by them, not people who just think they should hate the Japanese just because of the past. And those who were hurt by the Japanese, I encourage them to speak up because the Japanese government makes all kinds of attempts to hide history. That is all I have to say---10 people 10minds I understand and respect everyone's opinion and it's cool that you can come out and say what you have on your mind. I am not trying to create an utopia or anything. I am not asking for a double standard. All I ask is for understanding and respect of what I have to say. After all, don't I respect everyone's opinion? I was not involved in the terrible war and most of this generation was not either. I am just trying to promote understanding and unity between all of man kind. If you got the impression that I was simply trying to create problems, then I am sorry that you have got the wrong idea of what I did. Discussing an sensitive topic with out letting our emotions get the best of us is a good way to fix problems it is not so when emotions get the best of you. I was hoping that some of you could do this and we could have an understanding between everyone, but obviously some of us just could not do this. However that is ok, I can understand and cope with it. It is your opinion and you are more than entitled to it. Well, this probably will be my last post in about this topic unless something else comes up. Notice: I am not trying to create problems, just trying to promote unity and understanding, not hate and bad past memories. Good day to you all :) :)

mjk428 -> (7/1/2002 12:06:31 PM)
[QUOTE]Did I not mention earlier in the post about the screen name? Has nothing to do with anything derogatory.[/QUOTE] Yes and I believe you. In most cases, at least on this board, nothing derogatory is meant with the word you took exception to. I don't use the word and I don't like seeing the word. I have no anomosity towards Japanese people at all. They are allies of ours. The past is the past and I only brought it up to illustrate that it's not as simple as removing a word. Political correctness and over-sensitivity are rampant in this country and I'm quite fed up with it. I understand the good intentions but there also must be balance. Finally, I do apologize for insinuating that you may have been looking to cause trouble. I don't believe that's true and I hope you will accept my apology. Please know it's nothing personal; these are just tense times. Best Wishes, Marty K.

tohoku -> (7/1/2002 12:39:40 PM)
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Goblin I have to admit, I am really torn here. [QUOTE] I, for what it's worth ;) , think it comes down to context and a lack of forethought on the part of most posters. In most places in the RW it's insulting and should be avoided unless germane to the context (like, discussing whether it's an insult!). Here, however, I think there is more of a case that it is an abbreviation in most instances. Many people don't intend it as an insult. They're either just careless and don't think of it or they're trying to be insulting. As an abbreviation, it's poorly thought out. IJN or IJA are probably better, but when talking about the nation etc why not type the extra letters? Jap Japanese Five extra letters. Hell, if five extra letters is too much for people why not use "Jpn" for Japan and "Jpns" for Japanese? tohoku YMMV

tohoku -> (7/1/2002 12:55:39 PM)
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Goblin Wasp, this is where we part on our opinions. Edit other people's writing? Whoa. If I print something, thats my right, and no one should come along and edit it. Period. [/QUOTE] With freedom of expression come responsibility. [QUOTE] File names? Those [I]are[/I] for the purpose of shortening something. If someone wants to be that sensitive, they shouldn't be there in the first place. Goodness, where is the line? Where do you stop worrying about offending people? This game offends ALOT of people. Its too violent. It promotes hate. Etc. Ban it? [/QUOTE] So maybe it was an example of carelessness. Maybe it was an example of a latent attitude? Maybe it was intentional? Maybe it was the aliens with the oribital mind-control lasers? Maybe, just maybe, having had it pointed out, they can simply note it for the future? [QUOTE] How can you, or anyone else be offended by a word that wasn't intended to hurt, but play a game that represents Japanese and Americans and others killing eachother in horrible ways? [/QUOTE] I think you're missing what I take to be the point he is trying to make. If I were to start using the term 'septic' for Americans or 'Yid' instead of Yiddish in speech or in a game (about language wars, say ;) ) I'm fairly sure that it would not only raise a storm of protest but that lawsuits would follow in short order. But what if it was just a simple abbreviation to use when writing programme? Well, I'd call it a learning experience and make a note not to do it again. That some people would defend the continued use of a term once it's been pointed out as insulting to most of those it labels would be very telling of a person's character, IMO... tohoku YMMV

Svar -> Re: Notice for All (7/1/2002 3:27:09 PM)
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Wasp Good day to you all and thank you for taking your time to read my message. And please refrain from using derogatory terms. Do your part to stop hatred and discrimination. Thank you Wasp [/B][/QUOTE] Wasp, I'm not trying to change the subject but a very good friend of mine, who is Japanese and whose father served in the American Army while his family waited out the war in a Mojave Desert internment camp, uses the word but it means Jewish American Princess. I don't think it is used in a derogatory manner , I think it is supposed to be a compliment. I know that when the word is used here it refers to the Japanese people but wonder what the Japanese American soldiers who served in the famous 100th Bat./ 442nd RCT called the enemy soldiers from the Empire of Japan. The soldiers of the100th Bat./ 442nd RCT considered themselves Americans and the Empire of Japan had attacked their country which caused them and their families a great deal of emotional pain and physical suffering. The word has more than one meaning and you may be much more sensitive than others. Of the many ethnic groups represented in these forums some from former enemy countries you are the first person that I can think of who complained about the reference to a common term from the war. Svar PS I don't mean any disrespect but I think you are too sensitive.

Raverdave -> (7/3/2002 7:25:28 AM)
SEPTIC So how do you guys feel about that?

Mojo -> (7/3/2002 7:57:20 AM)
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Raverdave [B]SEPTIC So how do you guys feel about that? [/B][/QUOTE] I always thought it bordered on a term of endearment.;) Hmm............... I wonder how a company of JAPs (Jewish American Princesses) would fare in the game. Any chance to add them to the OOB? They'd be great code talkers if nothing else

UndercoverNotChickenSalad -> (7/3/2002 11:20:52 PM)
"it is an 'Art of Wargaming' thread, which is the lowest thing I can think of saying." I visit the AoW forum and I am very deeply offended by this statement. :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Vincent Prochelo -> Re: Notice for All (7/4/2002 12:36:49 AM)
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Wasp [B]I would like to say that I have really enjoyed the generosity of Matrix games. Well, that said, I have a concern I would like to share with everyone. Reading some of these posts, I have noticed some of us use the word "Jap" freely in these forums like it is just another word. I am quite concerned. The word "Jap" is a word of hate and I feel that too many people use it too freely. This is a word of hate and discrimination and I believe firmly that it is time for the word to GO! Jap? What is wrong with that word? It is short for Japanese... Can I not call a Scottish person a "Scot"? Can I not call a British person a Brit? I guess Polish people aren't Poles... Lighten up... quote: So I kindly ask all of you to refrain from using ANY derogatory terms that are designed to degrade any race of people. The Japanese are not a race onto themselves... quote: You know when people see some of these forums and see the word what would people think? In this case they would think they are refering to a Japenese person. quote: It seems to me that knowingly or not, the word is sending a message of hate. It seems to me that the word is refering to Japanese people. quote: It is not what the civilized world does. OMG... quote: Have we not got over the tragedies of hate and discrimination? As many of you understand, discrimination and hate has caused nothing but harm and hurt for all those involved. Look at Hitler as a good example. Look at what hate did to Germany. Sure, some of you may use derogatory terms just because you do not like a certain group of people, or just because you allow your emotions to control your thoughts, not your conscious mind. I use the word when refering to people who are Japanese. I do not use it in a derogatory manner at all. quote: All I am saying is THE NEXT GENERATION OF PEOPLE DO NOT HAVE TO BE CONTAMINATED BY HATE AND MESSAGES OF HATE. IS IT NOT TIME TO PUT AN END OF HATRED TOWARDS OUR FELLOW MAN? HAVE WE NOT LEARNED FROM OUR PAST MISTAKES WHAT HATE DOES TO THE HUMAN RACE? IT SIMPLY SETS US APART FROM ONE ANOTHER. SO PLEASE, FOR EVERYONE AND FOR THE NEXT GENERATION OF PEOPLE, PLEASE STOP THE SPEREAD OF HATE! THIS IS ONE STEP, BUT A HUGE STEP TO STOPPING THE SPEREAD OF HATE. SO FOR ALL OF YOU THAT HAVE USED OR USE DEROGATORY TERMS OF ANY KIND THAT ARE DESIGNED TO HURT OTHERS, PLEASE PUT AN END TO IT. WE DO NOT NEED ANOTHER CENTURY OF HATE. Good day to you all and thank you for taking your time to read my message. And please refrain from using derogatory terms. Do your part to stop hatred and discrimination. Thank you Wasp [/B][/QUOTE] I think you need to relax a little bit, you ar taking this way over the edge. -V (the opinions expressed here are soley those of Vincent Prochelo and should not be considered the opinions of anyone or anything else.)

Culiacan Mexico -> (7/4/2002 2:04:48 AM)
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Goblin [B]I am not going to post again on this thread. This was a civil discussion of a valid point of view, and now it is an 'Art of Wargaming' thread, which is the lowest thing I can think of saying. [/B][/QUOTE]:D Why, because people have different view points and express them? Free speech and the exercise of it� you have to love that! "Without free speech no search for truth is possible... no discovery of truth is useful.... Better a thousandfold abuse of free speech than denial of free speech. The abuse dies in a day, but the denial slays the life of the people, and entombs the hope of the race." -- Charles Bradlaugh

sven -> (7/4/2002 2:23:31 AM)
shoot the transgressors..... the only thing deserving of intolerance is intolerance....... of course gaijin is a term of endearment dear man....

Nixuebrig -> (7/4/2002 2:46:01 AM)
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Goblin [B] I am not going to post again on this thread. This was a civil discussion of a valid point of view, and now it is an 'Art of Wargaming' thread, which is the lowest thing I can think of saying. [/B][/QUOTE] :D How uncivilised ;)

Monkeybutt -> (7/4/2002 3:09:45 AM)
This thread has been assimlated by the 'Art of Wargaming' forum.Please flame each other. Thank You The 'Art of Wargaming' Borg :D

UndercoverNotChickenSalad -> (7/4/2002 3:19:22 AM)
[IMG]http://www.worldwar2-pictures.com/images/Pearl%20Harbor%20Damages.jpg[/IMG] Today, July 3, 2002 - a date which will live in infamy - All members of the Art of Wargaming BBS were suddenly and deliberately attacked by certain individuals who frequent the Pac War BBS. The AoW BBS was at peace with that BBS and, at the solicitation of said BBS, was still in conversation with their members looking toward the maintenance of peace in all Matrix forums.. Indeed, one hour after PacWar squadrons had commenced bombing, the PacWar ambassador delivered to the Secretary of State a formal reply to a recent message. While this reply stated that it seemed useless to continue the existing diplomatic negotiations, it contained no threat or hint of war or armed attack. PacWar BBS has, therefore, undertaken a surprise offensive extending throughout the Matrix area. The facts of today speak for themselves. The people of the AoW BBS have already formed their opinions and well understand the implications to the very life and safety of our BBS. As a regular member of the AoW BBS, I have requested that all measures be taken for our defense. Always will we remember the character of the onslaught against us. No matter how long it may take us to overcome this premeditated invasion, the AoW ppl, in their righteous might, will win through to absolute victory. I believe I interpret the will of AoW posters when I assert that we will not only defend ourselves to the uttermost, but will make very certain that this form of treachery shall never endanger us again. Hostilities exist. There is no blinking at the fact that that our people, our territory and our BBS are in grave danger. With confidence in our childish flamers - with the unbounding determination of our lurkers - we will gain the inevitable triumph. I ask that the AoW BBS admin declare that since the unprovoked and dastardly attack by PacWar on Tuesday July 3, 2002, a state of war exists between the Pacwar and the Aow forums. :p :p :p :p :p :p

Vincent Prochelo -> (7/4/2002 3:27:57 AM)
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Culiacan Mexico [B]:D Why, because people have different view points and express them? Free speech and the exercise of it� you have to love that! "Without free speech no search for truth is possible... no discovery of truth is useful.... Better a thousandfold abuse of free speech than denial of free speech. The abuse dies in a day, but the denial slays the life of the people, and entombs the hope of the race." -- Charles Bradlaugh [/B][/QUOTE] I agree! No need to playa hate...

U2 -> (7/4/2002 3:28:57 AM)
Hi My God! What are you guys doing here!? Be gone with you!;) Who told you about this post? Must find him!:D Dan

Spooky -> (7/4/2002 3:39:55 AM)
[QUOTE]Originally posted by U2 [B]Hi My God! What are you guys doing here!? Be gone with you!;) Who told you about this post? Must find him!:D Dan [/B][/QUOTE] Hum, just look at this AOW thread :) http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=22431

U2 -> (7/4/2002 3:43:33 AM)
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Spooky [B] Hum, just look at this AOW thread :) http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=22431 [/B][/QUOTE] Hi Spooky Thanks for the info. BTW I send you a PM. Dan

Culiacan Mexico -> (7/4/2002 3:44:52 AM)
[QUOTE]Originally posted by U2 [B]Hi My God! What are you guys doing here!? Be gone with you!;) Who told you about this post? Must find him!:D Dan [/B][/QUOTE]Words are power and one must be careful in their use. Speaking the name of the dark place might bring forth those foul demons. ;)

Vincent Prochelo -> (7/4/2002 3:57:54 AM)
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Culiacan Mexico [B]Words are power and one must be careful in their use. Speaking the name of the dark place might bring forth those foul demons. ;) [/B][/QUOTE] LOL.... beer

UndercoverNotChickenSalad -> (7/4/2002 4:29:04 AM)
"Words are power and one must be careful in their use. Speaking the name of the dark place might bring forth those foul demons. " heh diet coke

Mojo -> (7/4/2002 4:49:53 AM)
I think all AoW regulars found here should be placed in "relocation" camps where they will be very comfortable until hostilities end;)

sven -> (7/4/2002 4:53:10 AM)
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Mojo [B]I think all AoW regulars found here should be placed in "relocation" camps where they will be very comfortable until hostilities end;) [/B][/QUOTE] I am hardly "regular"....

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