repair ships (Full Version)

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Marty A -> repair ships (1/19/2010 3:38:50 PM)

I search for this and not find so if this old subject i did not see. this is late december 1941 in scenario 6. i am wondering why using repair ships is always slowest mode. leaving crew to repair own ship is faster than using repair ship. california for example is 114 days for own crew and 124 days for using repair ship. should repair ship not be faster since the crew and maybe pier side workers may also work on ship?



[image]local://upfiles/32513/0A969FBEC5064EA6A44D089CF2BCA53F.jpg[/image]



John Lansford -> RE: repair ships (1/19/2010 3:40:18 PM)

The repair ship is fixing a small amount of major damage that the crew can't fix themselves.  AR's can repair up to 5 major damage points all by themselves.



Don Bowen -> RE: repair ships (1/19/2010 4:45:08 PM)


I think the kicker here is port size. A large port, with all it's facilities, is better able to make extensive repairs. ARs are best when other facilities are lacking.



Marty A -> RE: repair ships (1/19/2010 4:56:12 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Don Bowen


I think the kicker here is port size. A large port, with all it's facilities, is better able to make extensive repairs. ARs are best when other facilities are lacking.


Why was vestal sitting by arizona then? seem to me ar should do something.



John Lansford -> RE: repair ships (1/19/2010 5:08:52 PM)

An AR in a major shipyard is kind of superfluous; all it can do there is perform some work on ships to take a little of the load off the shipyard itself, but it's going to take longer to get done.  I move all my AR's to either small shipyard ports or larger ports that don't have shipyards at all.  The AR I have at Darwin, for example, can repair some major damage and speed up repairs on other ships, reducing the # of ships I have to send to Brisbane or Sydney for repairs.



oldman45 -> RE: repair ships (1/19/2010 5:15:43 PM)

In game terms she was providing support and doing repairs to the ship. If you notice in the picture you posted, should you use the repair ship it will be "done" in 124#. That # means there will be major damage remaining at the end of 124 days. Repair ships can only fix a small amount of major damage. (5 points I believe is the number) The shipyard number is how many days it will take for all the repairs to be completed. (major and minor).

Make more sense now?



Marty A -> RE: repair ships (1/19/2010 5:30:46 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: oldman45

In game terms she was providing support and doing repairs to the ship. If you notice in the picture you posted, should you use the repair ship it will be "done" in 124#. That # means there will be major damage remaining at the end of 124 days. Repair ships can only fix a small amount of major damage. (5 points I believe is the number) The shipyard number is how many days it will take for all the repairs to be completed. (major and minor).

Make more sense now?


the 114 days of readiness also has a # after it meaning same thing so that if ship does own repair without ar helping it is faster than with ar help so no it does not make sense.



oldman45 -> RE: repair ships (1/19/2010 5:40:26 PM)

edit - I think ckammp may have explained it better [;)]



ckammp -> RE: repair ships (1/19/2010 5:43:26 PM)

The difference is the type of repair being done to the ship. ARs will work on Major damage, Readiness will not; so repairs take longer with ARs, but get more repaired.

Edit: In a size 7 or larger port, Pierside repair can also work on Major damage the same as an AR (5 points or less); it makes sense that a ship stood down in a large port would repair faster at pierside than with an AR. And AFAIK, ships at sea can not repair Major damage.



Marty A -> RE: repair ships (1/19/2010 5:45:24 PM)

I have had ships at sea repair major damage while moving. so again i fail to see why it takes longer with an ar than without.



freeboy -> RE: repair ships (1/19/2010 5:49:47 PM)

I think you may be mistaken on that one.. Major damage is not fixed by ships crew in my experience, EVER, always at port.. U may have some mixed though, for instance a floatation major of 30 and other of 20 totally 50, and you will se the total change at sea.. usually mnine just get worse!
Good luck with this, the game needs a good interface tutorial[X(]



KenchiSulla -> RE: repair ships (1/19/2010 6:03:04 PM)

I have never seen crew repair major damage at sea..



FOW -> RE: repair ships (1/19/2010 6:33:02 PM)

Marty,

From your BB California example
In Readiness mode she will repair in 114 days : 48 Sys + 19 Minor Flot damage.
In Repair ship mode she will repair in 124 days : 48 Sys + 19 Minor Flot + 5 Major Flot/Eng Damage

It's not slower, you are repairing more damage in those extra 10 days.



Marty A -> RE: repair ships (1/19/2010 8:53:46 PM)

Well repairing major damage at sea does happen [or at least did happen]. i had a very hurt kaga i was sending home after repairing all her flood damage first leaving 76 major float damage. i watch her every turn on her way home and she dropped 1. so i know it happens. now maybe a bug but it happens. as for repairing 5 major damage in a 124 day period this still makes no sence to me. let me try to explain my logic:

readiness is ships own crew yes? in california case it will take crew 114 days to do the repairs you say fow.

ar repair should be the ship crew working on repair AND the ar ship repairing no? [actually should maybe be some dock work as well] so in that view all ar is doing in this case repair 5 major damage above what crew repairs already and takes that ar ship 124 days to do this. this is stupid to me. now what is it that i do not see that you see?



WLockard -> RE: repair ships (1/19/2010 9:10:04 PM)


Since it takes the Shipyard 1108 days ( 1189 - 81 ) to fix all of the Major Damage, which is about 12 days per major damage, an extra 10 dyas to repair 5 major damage from the AR doesn't sound too bad.



Marty A -> RE: repair ships (1/19/2010 9:18:55 PM)

well is 81 days tied to the dock to repair which it must be to use ar. so ar repair is really 43 days longer than tied to dock repair. so i guess the question maybe should be how long should it take an ar to repair 1 point of major damage? in this case it appears to take 21 days. many ships had big damage repaired at front line base enough to make it home. in game ar is only way to do this. if ship has 75 damage and anything over 50 is a risk to move should it take over 500 days to repair ship enough to begin to move to rear? i think no. and why is ar limit 5 damage repair? how to get a 75 damage ship back if you can only repair 5 of it? this too make no sense to me.



CapAndGown -> RE: repair ships (1/19/2010 9:34:00 PM)

Isn't this kind of moot? Don't AR ships add repair points to the overall port so that every ship is helped out by the AR? Why dedicate an AR to one ship at all when it can simply add its repair points to the overall port supply of repair points?



ckammp -> RE: repair ships (1/19/2010 9:39:09 PM)

1) - the dates given for time of repair are estimates, not actual.

2) - estimated times for ships using Pierside, AR, and Shipyard repair include a delay (1-3 days) to return the ship to online status.

3) - estimated times will vary depending on the type of damage being repaired. Ships in AR, Pierside, and Shipyard repair more damage, thus have longer repair times.

4) - ships in Readiness repair can use Naval Support, Port Assist, and Tender Assist (if the tender is not otherwise being used) as well as Crew Assist to help repairs; it is not just the ship's crew.

5) - ships that are stood down for repairs have better calculation results for repair Ops points, and will repair quicker than ships in Readiness repair.

6) - all the above information was taken from the manual, pages 239 - 248.


So you could take the chance that the California will repair in 114 days in Readiness repair, but it will probably take longer than that, plus you would still need to repair all the Major damage. I would suggest placing her in Pierside, at least until some of the other ships you have in Shipyard are repaired, then put her in Shipyard to fix the Major damage. With that much damage, Readiness repair is a waste of time.  



Smeulders -> RE: repair ships (1/19/2010 9:41:16 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: FOW

Marty,

From your BB California example
In Readiness mode she will repair in 114 days : 48 Sys + 19 Minor Flot damage.
In Repair ship mode she will repair in 124 days : 48 Sys + 19 Minor Flot + 5 Major Flot/Eng Damage

It's not slower, you are repairing more damage in those extra 10 days.


I believe that's incorrect, it can only repair that 5 major if there isn't more than 5 major. Otherwise, nothing is keeping you from again and again using the 'only 5 major' to completely repair all major.

I'll second Cap and Gown's post, the AR will assist repairs in port, even if the ships isn't explicitly assigned to the AR.



crsutton -> RE: repair ships (1/19/2010 9:48:49 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: freeboy

I think you may be mistaken on that one.. Major damage is not fixed by ships crew in my experience, EVER, always at port.. U may have some mixed though, for instance a floatation major of 30 and other of 20 totally 50, and you will se the total change at sea.. usually mnine just get worse!
Good luck with this, the game needs a good interface tutorial[X(]



Well, is flotation major damage? I just shifted a BB to from Pearl to the WC w/80 flotation. This was all listed as major (in orange) and would not repair at pierside. There was no sys or engine damage. However the flotation damage was repaired to about 72 by the time the ship arrived in port. I will add that at one time there was a bulkhead failure and the flotation shot up to about 85 but gradually was pulled down by the crew.

I will double check to see that it was all major but am pretty sure it was.



Marty A -> RE: repair ships (1/20/2010 2:37:09 AM)

Well that proves that major damage can be repaired even at sea. as far as ar increasing port ability to repair this is how it is when i put the ar there in a tf at sea. so this does appear to be the case at least for not in ship yard.

[image]local://upfiles/32513/8367B01D1EBB4DFCA09A849E1DB804C3.jpg[/image]



vonTirpitz -> RE: repair ships (1/20/2010 2:46:20 AM)

There is floatation damage and there is Major Floatation Damage. There is also engine damage and, separately, Major Engine Damage. These are four separate and distinct damage values from what I can determine.

Click on the ship itself and you will be shown these differences. Major damage is not fixable outside of shipyard facilities or (possibly) adequate dry docks or ARDs as far as I know. The numbers in parenthesis show these numbers (as in your example 76/18).


quote:

ORIGINAL: Marty A

Well that proves that major damage can be repaired even at sea. as far as ar increasing port ability to repair this is how it is when i put the ar there in a tf at sea. so this does appear to be the case at least for not in ship yard.

[image]local://upfiles/32513/8367B01D1EBB4DFCA09A849E1DB804C3.jpg[/image]



John Lansford -> RE: repair ships (1/20/2010 12:00:28 PM)

Also, if a ship has had a weapon mount destroyed, you'll see a column with "Weapon xxx".  That is the time in days to repair all the destroyed devices (weapons, radar, etc) on that ship.  I had one BB lose a MGT (main gun turret) at Pearl Harbor and while everything else was fixed, the turret required several more weeks of repair before the ship was ready to go.



wwengr -> RE: repair ships (1/20/2010 1:08:07 PM)

Marty, I looked at the two screen shots and went into the manual to try to understand what is going on. Here is my understanding of it:

quote:

ORIGINAL: Marty A

[image]local://upfiles/32513/0A969FBEC5064EA6A44D089CF2BCA53F.jpg[/image]




[image]local://upfiles/32513/8367B01D1EBB4DFCA09A849E1DB804C3.jpg[/image]


Repair Ship is the slowest mode because it is a mode where the ship being repaired is at anchor and not using the resources of the port or naval squads to repair. It does not mean that the repair ship is solely dedicated to the selected ship. The ship is at anchor and using only its own crew and the resources of the repair ship. The reason to select this mode is because docking it would exceed the capaity of the port.

So it appears that the effect of the repair ship is relatively small in this case. This makes sense. The way that you have it configured, neither the pierside resources, nor the shipyard are over loaded with ship repairs becuase Pearl is a very large port and has plenty of capacity (in this case).

What is happening -

Readiness Repair - This ship is kept in a state of being ready to sail. This slows down repair ops. The resources of the repair ship are available and used by all of the ships in the port, but it is not necesarily tied up alongside the ship being repaired nor is it solely dedicated to the ship being repaired. The crew, the port, and the naval squads are all contributing to the repair effort. Without the repair ship, the time estimate is 130 days to repair and with the repair ship 114 days. The estimated benefit from the repair ship is 16 days improvement on the repair time. The major damage cannot be repaired in this mode, so it is not included in the time estimate. The time estimate is on;y for what damage can be repaired.

Pierside Repair - This ship is stood down and not ready to sail. This allows the repair assets to work faster. The resources of the repair ship are available and used by all of the ships in the port, but it is not necesarily tied up alongside the ship being repaired nor is it solely dedicated to the ship being repaired. The crew, the port, and the naval squads are all contributing to the repair effort. Without the repair ship, the time estimate is 84 days to repair and with the repair ship 81 days. The estimated benefit from the repair ship is 3 days improvement on the repair time. The major damage cannot be repaired in this mode, so it is not included in the time estimate. The time estimate is only for what damage can be repaired.

Shipyard Repair - This ship is placed into the shipyard. The shipyard does all of the work and the presence of the repair ship, naval squads do nothing. The major damage will be repaired in this mode, so it is included in the time estimate. It takes a long time to repair major damage.

Repair Ship - This ship is at anchor and not being repaired dockside. It is probably tied up alongside of the repair ship. This mode does not mean that the repair ship is dedicated to only this ship to speed its repairs. Only the crew and the repair ship are working on the repairs. The port resources and naval squads are not working on it. With fewer resources, it takes longer to repair. The reason to select this mode is becuase the total tonnage of ships would exceed the docking capacity of the port.



wwengr -> RE: repair ships (1/20/2010 1:26:05 PM)

So the question: "Does a repair ship do more work in a large port or a small port?" The answer is neither. It contributes the same amount of repair points regardless of where it is. It just seems to do more in a small port because it is a larger fraction of the total repair assets in a small port versus a large port.

There is only a threshold difference. If the port repair value + the naval squad repair value is greater than the repair ship repair value, then the efficiency of the repair ship is cut in half. Conversely, if the opposite is the case, the efficiency of the naval squads is cut in half.

With no naval squads present, a repair ship will be most efficient in a port size of 7 or lower. Either way you look at it, repair ships and naval squads dont' play well together. Either one or the other will be less efficient where they are both together, so in general, put your repair ships at ports size 7 or lower with no naval squads

The question really is "Where should I place my repair ships to optimize repair and availability of ships?" The answer to that is quite complicated because of travel time and port/shipyard capacity. Maybe a seriously damaged ship can be patched up forward and regain some speed before steaming back. Maybe the larger port and/or shipyard would be seriously overloaded, so you can speed things up by putting a repair ship in another port to better distribute the effort. Maybe concentrating resources in a large port/shipyard will provide the fastest overall repair and return to battle...



JWE -> RE: repair ships (1/20/2010 8:09:23 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: wwengr
So the question: "Does a repair ship do more work in a large port or a small port?" The answer is neither. It contributes the same amount of repair points regardless of where it is. It just seems to do more in a small port because it is a larger fraction of the total repair assets in a small port versus a large port.

There is only a threshold difference. If the port repair value + the naval squad repair value is greater than the repair ship repair value, then the efficiency of the repair ship is cut in half. Conversely, if the opposite is the case, the efficiency of the naval squads is cut in half.

With no naval squads present, a repair ship will be most efficient in a port size of 7 or lower. Either way you look at it, repair ships and naval squads dont' play well together. Either one or the other will be less efficient where they are both together, so in general, put your repair ships at ports size 7 or lower with no naval squads

The question really is "Where should I place my repair ships to optimize repair and availability of ships?" The answer to that is quite complicated because of travel time and port/shipyard capacity. Maybe a seriously damaged ship can be patched up forward and regain some speed before steaming back. Maybe the larger port and/or shipyard would be seriously overloaded, so you can speed things up by putting a repair ship in another port to better distribute the effort. Maybe concentrating resources in a large port/shipyard will provide the fastest overall repair and return to battle...

That's not really how it works. The algorithm is quite a bit more interesting and flexible than that.

Please refrain from telling people that "this is how it is", when it "isn't". Your view, while very conservative, fits within the paradigm we devised. Other, more expansive, views also fit and are quite a bit more inclusive.



John Lansford -> RE: repair ships (1/20/2010 8:58:49 PM)

I've got both an AR and Cavite BF at Darwin (Cavite has a lot of naval support points), plus a few more units that provide NS points.  I put ships with major damage in repair ship mode and they fix the major damage; everyone else gets standard pierside repair and the minor damage is repaired very quickly.  The AR tends to repair slower but it's also fixing major damage so I don't see any problem with that.



Mike Solli -> RE: repair ships (1/20/2010 9:02:01 PM)

Does the major damage get repaired after the minor damage is repaired or is it concurrent?



freeboy -> RE: repair ships (1/20/2010 9:29:32 PM)

[:-][&o]I think the ships have, only from experience, not as a designer or someone on the inside, the ships have an random chance of fixing .. one key ship at a key port started with flotation, then as it got lower started taking some system damage too..
MY GUESS isthat the areas are all fixed based on a random number set into a ratio.. ie random 1-100 less than x ppoint comes off with differing weights for the types and methods.. hope that is much clearer than it looks[:-][X(]



vonTirpitz -> RE: repair ships (1/21/2010 12:08:48 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Mike Solli

Does the major damage get repaired after the minor damage is repaired or is it concurrent?


Mike,

I am seeing concurrent repairs for both major and minor damage in ports with adequate repair capabilities. AETracker seems to confirm this.

T



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