RE: repair ships (Full Version)

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Mike Solli -> RE: repair ships (1/21/2010 12:09:49 AM)

Ahh, thanks.



Bradley7735 -> RE: repair ships (1/21/2010 12:36:45 AM)

Ok, so what is the difference between an ARD and an AR?

I see that ARD's have "ship lift" capability. I'm not sure how to use them. Any help is appreciated.

Thanks!!



Mike Solli -> RE: repair ships (1/21/2010 12:40:32 AM)

According to the manual:

ARD - may assist repair of any ship type, but only flotation damage; may repair Major floatation damage.

AR - may assist repair of any ship type. Can repair low levels of Major damage on all ships. Also all Major damage fro small craft.




wwengr -> RE: repair ships (1/21/2010 1:36:16 AM)

You are right. I did not mean to be interpreted as "this is the only way". Rather, "this is how the equations published in the manual work, so here are the apparent trade-offs". By the way, I dont' support a rigid constructionist view of the "rules". I am greatly appreciative of how the developers have opted not to reveal any of the equations in the model beyond those deliberately published. Rather it is left to experience and interpretation. If a simulation of reality often leaves you scratching your head, then it simulates reality![;)]



wwengr -> RE: repair ships (1/21/2010 2:19:46 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Mike Solli

Does the major damage get repaired after the minor damage is repaired or is it concurrent?


As vonTirpitz, I am also seeing concurrent repairs.



Marty A -> RE: repair ships (1/21/2010 4:18:26 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: wwengr

Repair Ship is the slowest mode because it is a mode where the ship being repaired is at anchor and not using the resources of the port or naval squads to repair. It does not mean that the repair ship is solely dedicated to the selected ship. The ship is at anchor and using only its own crew and the resources of the repair ship. The reason to select this mode is because docking it would exceed the capaity of the port.

So it appears that the effect of the repair ship is relatively small in this case. This makes sense. The way that you have it configured, neither the pierside resources, nor the shipyard are over loaded with ship repairs becuase Pearl is a very large port and has plenty of capacity (in this case).



Well my problem with this fact that a ship must 'stood down' [ie pier side repair] BEFORE you can have an ar work on it so this not make sense to me. it is not readiness repair if tied to a dock. arizona was tied to dock with vestal next to her at 0800 december 7 so again this explanation while fits what is showing on display does not fit history or the way you have to assign it in game. so i submit it is not working correctly. if it is working as designed then the design is flawed. the order of repair in step menu is readiness, pierside, repair ship, shipyard. this says clear that repair ship use pierside as well as ship.



oldman45 -> RE: repair ships (1/21/2010 5:10:36 AM)

You are making this harder than it is Marty, I had this discussion with the powers that be concerning dry docks and all 3 kinds of repair ships when the Babes mod was coming out. Part of the issue is the things that would allow the dry docks and repair ships to operate in a more historical fashion are coded so don't look for any changes. Once you accept how it works, there are great things you can do. I enjoy it and compared to what we did in Witp this is pretty awesome.



Marty A -> RE: repair ships (1/21/2010 5:57:32 AM)

Well that is exactly what I am trying to do figure out how they work. but it does not make any sense [to me] in a historical context and the rules conflicts on how it works. for example:

14.2.3.2. REPAIR SHIP REPAIR
Several different types of Repair Ships are available to assist in repair of different types of vessels. The extent of damage that can be repaired by Repair Ships depends on the “kind” of Repair Ship; for example, an ARD may only repair floatation damage, but may repair Major floatation damage. ARs and other types may NOT repair Major damage for larger ships. They can repair major damage to small craft, like PTs and barges. Ships may use the assistance of Repair Ships in two ways; at anchor, or at dockside. In either mode, the Repair Ships available to repair different warship types are as follows:

[chart]
AR
May assist repair of any ship type. Can repair low levels of Major damage on all ships. Also all Major Damage for small craft.
ARD
May assist repair of any ship type, but only floatation damage; may repair Major floatation damage.
AS
May assist repair of submarines only. Cannot repair Major damage
AD
May assist repair of DDs or any Small Escort types only. Can repair Major damage only for small craft.
AGP
May assist repair of PT and other Small Craft only. Can repair Major damage for small craft
AG
May assist repair of Small Escort and Small Craft only. Can repair Major damage only for small craft.
Small Escort:
DE, APD, DMS, DM, AVD, E, TB, KV, PF, PB, PC, SC, AM, ML
Small Craft:
PB, PC, SC, AM, ML, HDML, MGB, YP, YMS, AMc
[end chart]

14.2.3.2.1 REPAIR SHIP CAPACITY
Repair Ships make repairs based on their capability (shown above) and their available Ops points calculated turn-by-turn. An undamaged Repair Ship, that does nothing else in a complete turn, will generate 1000 Ops points in that turn. Ops points are not cumulative. You must use them, or lose them.
14.2.3.2.1.1 REPAIR POINTS
Undamaged, “fresh” Repair Ships may contribute, up to a maximum of 83 Repair Points per turn. Therefore, Repair Ships may repair up to a maximum of 0.83 damage points per turn.

now the way i read this and the rules leading up to this is damaged ship must be in pierside to have ar assigned to it. if ar not assigned will help with any mode repair as i show already and this does work. so if damage ship is in pierside mode to have ar assigned and ar add 83 repair points to repair ship in pierside meaning repair ship should be faster than pierside repair no? also conflict between rule and chart from what everyone say the rule is wrong but chart is right but still does not mean ar does not help pierside repair. again looks to me like game does not do what it should here.



oldman45 -> RE: repair ships (1/21/2010 6:34:59 AM)

Well don't know what to tell you there, I don't use the AR's in major ship yards because you put them with an ARD in a small port, you can fix your DD's and subs and not send them back to a repair yard. AD's and AS's are class specific and again, put them in a port that does not have a repair yard and it allows you flexibility. I don't even care much about how long it takes, they will get fixed when they get fixed. Perhaps a little lackadaisical, but it works for me.



wwengr -> RE: repair ships (1/21/2010 6:47:49 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: oldman45

Well don't know what to tell you there, I don't use the AR's in major ship yards because you put them with an ARD in a small port, you can fix your DD's and subs and not send them back to a repair yard. AD's and AS's are class specific and again, put them in a port that does not have a repair yard and it allows you flexibility. I don't even care much about how long it takes, they will get fixed when they get fixed. Perhaps a little lackadaisical, but it works for me.

[:D]yeah, my typical turn - obsess about the first 10 things I work on, then just quickly go through the other 1000. I have thought long and hard about what would be the best distribution of my repair assets and come to no optimum conclusion. Long before that, I become danuted by it and do just what feels like it will work. I like to push my repair ships out forward and reserve the big ports/ship yards for the long-term heavy lifting.



Bullwinkle58 -> RE: repair ships (1/21/2010 1:57:34 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Marty A

Well that is exactly what I am trying to do figure out how they work. but it does not make any sense [to me] in a historical context and the rules conflicts on how it works. for example:

14.2.3.2. REPAIR SHIP REPAIR
Several different types of Repair Ships are available to assist in repair of different types of vessels. The extent of damage that can be repaired by Repair Ships depends on the “kind” of Repair Ship; for example, an ARD may only repair floatation damage, but may repair Major floatation damage. ARs and other types may NOT repair Major damage for larger ships. They can repair major damage to small craft, like PTs and barges. Ships may use the assistance of Repair Ships in two ways; at anchor, or at dockside. In either mode, the Repair Ships available to repair different warship types are as follows:

[chart]
AR
May assist repair of any ship type. Can repair low levels of Major damage on all ships. Also all Major Damage for small craft.
ARD
May assist repair of any ship type, but only floatation damage; may repair Major floatation damage.
AS
May assist repair of submarines only. Cannot repair Major damage
AD
May assist repair of DDs or any Small Escort types only. Can repair Major damage only for small craft.
AGP
May assist repair of PT and other Small Craft only. Can repair Major damage for small craft
AG
May assist repair of Small Escort and Small Craft only. Can repair Major damage only for small craft.
Small Escort:
DE, APD, DMS, DM, AVD, E, TB, KV, PF, PB, PC, SC, AM, ML
Small Craft:
PB, PC, SC, AM, ML, HDML, MGB, YP, YMS, AMc
[end chart]

14.2.3.2.1 REPAIR SHIP CAPACITY
Repair Ships make repairs based on their capability (shown above) and their available Ops points calculated turn-by-turn. An undamaged Repair Ship, that does nothing else in a complete turn, will generate 1000 Ops points in that turn. Ops points are not cumulative. You must use them, or lose them.
14.2.3.2.1.1 REPAIR POINTS
Undamaged, “fresh” Repair Ships may contribute, up to a maximum of 83 Repair Points per turn. Therefore, Repair Ships may repair up to a maximum of 0.83 damage points per turn.

now the way i read this and the rules leading up to this is damaged ship must be in pierside to have ar assigned to it. if ar not assigned will help with any mode repair as i show already and this does work. so if damage ship is in pierside mode to have ar assigned and ar add 83 repair points to repair ship in pierside meaning repair ship should be faster than pierside repair no? also conflict between rule and chart from what everyone say the rule is wrong but chart is right but still does not mean ar does not help pierside repair. again looks to me like game does not do what it should here.


I don't know if I can help, but, as others have said, you may be making too much of all this.

From what you put in bold above, I think the wording of the first two bolded sentences maybe isn't clear enough as written. I think the first line means that ARs won't repair ALL Major Floatation Damage, and the second alludes to them being able ot fix up to 5 points of it. An ARD can repair ALL of it (they're drydocks.) If not assigned, I've always pictured the ARs throwing their capacity into the port's total repair "pool" and working on pierside repairs. Which is what they do in RL, BTW.

I've worked with ASes in RL, and my father was in the Repair Department in two of them as well. ARs are very similar in repair capability; what really differs with the AS and AD classes is them having having ammo magazines and handling equipment for their respective ships. These ships do not typically work on ships anchored out in the harbor, but there is usually no need for the tended ship to be alongside either, unless crane services are needed. Tender personnel walk down the pier and go abooard the tended ship (pierside repiar) to do work in place, or to pull gear to take back to the shops on the tender (calibration, small motor re-winds, small valve refurbishment, etc.)

In the USN, repair servies are three tier--ship's force (Readiness and non-Repair Ship Pierside), IMA (Intermediate Maintenance Facility) (tenders and shore facilities like Subase Pearl, in the game Pierside with Repair Ship assigned), and depot level (shipyards/ARDs.) IMAs have limited diver support for underwater work. They can inspect, pull sea strainers, replace zincs, etc., do very limited welding and cofferdamming, but can't place new hull plates or do extensive hull work. For that you must have a drydock. The game is excellent at presenting this system and its trade-offs IMO.

Perhaps--I don't know--some of the results you're seeing where the ARs seem to be slower than straight pierside work results from assigning too many ships at once to Repair Ship status on your control screens. If you do the game will dutifully try to carry out your orders, but Repair ships don't have infinite capacity. At some point you overload them and they queue up the backlog. FWIW, shipyards do this too when you "place them in the red" by making every repair Critical or High status. Back off on the Repair ships and see if they don't then get faster than Pierside.



Mike Solli -> RE: repair ships (1/21/2010 2:17:37 PM)

Interesting discussion guys.  The Japanese player has only 2 ARs for a long time.  Their placement is critical.  Because there are so few, I can't see them in the rear in the big ports or too far forward.  I'd really hate to lose one.  I like to place them near where the action is so damaged ships can get there relatively quickly.  They assist in repairing damage so the ship can move to the rear to get the major damage repaired.  Maybe that's not efficient (since the AR can repair major damage) but that's how I'm doing it right now.



Mike Solli -> RE: repair ships (1/21/2010 2:17:37 PM)

Interesting discussion guys.  The Japanese player has only 2 ARs for a long time.  Their placement is critical.  Because there are so few, I can't see them in the rear in the big ports or too far forward.  I'd really hate to lose one.  I like to place them near where the action is so damaged ships can get there relatively quickly.  They assist in repairing damage so the ship can move to the rear to get the major damage repaired.  Maybe that's not efficient (since the AR can repair major damage) but that's how I'm doing it right now.



John Lansford -> RE: repair ships (1/21/2010 2:18:20 PM)

My AR's are used to get a heavily damaged ship ready for a longer voyage to a bigger shipyard, and to repair smaller amounts of damage at ports that don't have shipyards.  If they improve repair rates at shipyard ports I've never seen it happen, but I've definitely seen them speed up work at non-shipyard ports, so that's where I put them.

Same with AS and AD's too, but they're also rearming their specific ship types so repair work is a bonus.



Marty A -> RE: repair ships (1/21/2010 3:15:29 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mike Solli

Interesting discussion guys.  The Japanese player has only 2 ARs for a long time.  Their placement is critical.  Because there are so few, I can't see them in the rear in the big ports or too far forward.  I'd really hate to lose one.  I like to place them near where the action is so damaged ships can get there relatively quickly.  They assist in repairing damage so the ship can move to the rear to get the major damage repaired.  Maybe that's not efficient (since the AR can repair major damage) but that's how I'm doing it right now.


exactly! i usually play japan. my one ally game has made it to january 1 1942. but i have had them well forward and repairing a damaged ship around kendari took so long [i am speak of the kaga incident here] i decided was better to risk a 75% float damage run back to japan than take the 2 years to repair down to 50% to make same run. those that say do not make much of it does not play japan that is clear [;)]

ed. i never assign more than 1 damage ship to 'repair ship' function per ar present. well truth is i never use it because it seems worthless to me and this is reason i try to make sense of it. ag seem even more useless to me. much support ships in game seem to really have no true function and could effective be put function in base force units as naval support and eliminate excess needless ships from game. amc for example. with lack of mines in game these really have no function other than chase subs which is how players use. if base force units had mine sweep ability in their hex these units could go away also and maybe make subs in port hex with base unit able to be attack by base force meaning players would probably stop doing this.



JWE -> RE: repair ships (1/21/2010 7:35:56 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: wwengr
You are right. I did not mean to be interpreted as "this is the only way". Rather, "this is how the equations published in the manual work, so here are the apparent trade-offs". By the way, I dont' support a rigid constructionist view of the "rules". I am greatly appreciative of how the developers have opted not to reveal any of the equations in the model beyond those deliberately published. Rather it is left to experience and interpretation. If a simulation of reality often leaves you scratching your head, then it simulates reality![;)]

Didn't mean to sound sharp wwengr, and appologies if it seemed that way. We are all busy with other things, and find it hard, sometimes, to recall just exactly where things were when the manual was written. Most of us will no longer comment on this forum for obvious reasons. Got your pm, btw, and will respond.



Don Bowen -> RE: repair ships (1/21/2010 8:07:35 PM)


Note: The abiity of ARs to repair up to 5 points of major damage on larger ships was a late addition. Sorry if the manual did not get fully updated.




Bullwinkle58 -> RE: repair ships (1/21/2010 8:34:38 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mike Solli

Interesting discussion guys.  The Japanese player has only 2 ARs for a long time.  Their placement is critical.  Because there are so few, I can't see them in the rear in the big ports or too far forward.  I'd really hate to lose one.  I like to place them near where the action is so damaged ships can get there relatively quickly.  They assist in repairing damage so the ship can move to the rear to get the major damage repaired.  Maybe that's not efficient (since the AR can repair major damage) but that's how I'm doing it right now.


Didn't know they only get two. Wow. Tough decisions.
I think you're using them correctly. They can fix minor float pretty well, and that's what sinks you on the way home. Ship's force will eventually, probably, maybe, fix System damage enought o hold off flooding from Major Float, but that Minor is a killer.
FWIW, the AI puts at least one pretty far forward, and it can't outrun dive bombers. [;)]



oldman45 -> RE: repair ships (1/22/2010 3:14:32 AM)

I just had a DD pull into a smallish port, (4) with 1 point of major engine damage and the AR will not fix it. Now I am stumped. There are also naval squads present.... so much for my great theory.

Well to muddy up the waters more, I logged into the game after posting this and the AR along with ships company were happily repairing the damage....



Bullwinkle58 -> RE: repair ships (1/22/2010 1:36:25 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: oldman45

I just had a DD pull into a smallish port, (4) with 1 point of major engine damage and the AR will not fix it. Now I am stumped. There are also naval squads present.... so much for my great theory.

Well to muddy up the waters more, I logged into the game after posting this and the AR along with ships company were happily repairing the damage....


It takes a turn or two to rack out those Tender Queens and get them to work.[:)]



oldman45 -> RE: repair ships (1/22/2010 2:51:33 PM)

I guess they had not gotten Squadrons approval for the port visit :) Might have been a union ship yard [;)]

Bullwinkle58 - Didn't you say you were on tenders? I was on the Holland, Simon Lake, Frank Cable.



Bullwinkle58 -> RE: repair ships (1/22/2010 5:45:38 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: oldman45

I guess they had not gotten Squadrons approval for the port visit :) Might have been a union ship yard [;)]

Bullwinkle58 - Didn't you say you were on tenders? I was on the Holland, Simon Lake, Frank Cable.


No, I was on a pre-Ohio-class boomer. We did refits at Kings Bay and Charleston (we were a backfit Trident C-4 boat and did refits and DASO ops out of Charleston/Port Canaveral before moving to the squadron at KB.) As I recall we worked with Hunley, S. Lake, and Holland. At that time KB was still under construction and there were no shore-side shops yet. Everything was tender-based.

My father was a plank-owner in Hunley, and was also Electronic Repair Officer in Orion (he was an LDO, ex-Diesel boat sonarman.) Orion is in AE; she formed one of the forward-deployed squadron bases in the Marianas I think, or maybe at Ulithi. In 1972 she was still cranking out work on SSNs at the Norfolk, VA. D&S piers.

I did one refit with USS Hunley. It was kind of cool sitting in the wardroom at the arrival conference and looking over at the TV area where, at Holy Loch in 1962, I had played with my Tonka trucks while visiting my dad on one of his CDO duty days.



oldman45 -> RE: repair ships (1/22/2010 6:58:42 PM)

I was in Kingsbay when it was a mud parking lot and a pier. The Simon Lake was med moored to the pier and there was a floating dry dock about a half a mile away. Now that was when the Navy was an adventure. They had to remove alligators from the parking lot a couple of times [X(]

Sounds like we were in around the same time. Small world! BTW when I was on the Holland she was stationed in Holy Loch.



Bullwinkle58 -> RE: repair ships (1/22/2010 10:25:12 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: oldman45

I was in Kingsbay when it was a mud parking lot and a pier. The Simon Lake was med moored to the pier and there was a floating dry dock about a half a mile away. Now that was when the Navy was an adventure. They had to remove alligators from the parking lot a couple of times [X(]

Sounds like we were in around the same time. Small world! BTW when I was on the Holland she was stationed in Holy Loch.


We did DASO in Florida at Thanksgiving of 1981, the Bluies shot the bird, we both got certified, and we went to KB to resume the patrol cycle in Jan. of '82 I think. I did six patrols out of KB through the late summer of '84.

The base then was pretty much done except for the piers and shops. They had first-class everything. Great clubs, Welfare & Rec, offices for the civil servant types who did most everything not directly warlike. The parking lot was half paved, half gravel, and there was a wooden foot bridge over a little swamp area right behind the pier. A BIG nest of racoons under there that liked to eat cigarette butts as I recall. Don't remember any gators near the piers, but they cruised around the river banks on sunny days.

The ARD was still there in 1982, as we went in to fix our anchor and routine the torpedo tubes. I have a photo taken from inside the TR looking out at bright sunshine. Needless to say, those interlocks got checked, rechecked, then checked fifteen more times before the ARD flooded down. I also got to dive a MBT to close it out after some sonar dome work was done. That kind of stench you never really forget.

You can Google Earth KB now and you wouldn't recognize the piers. Explosive handling wharf with satellite shade. They do refits under cover now. I'm not sure the Navy has any tenders anymore. There was one last one at La Mad in Sicily for years, and another that periodically showed up in Diego Garcia, but after the Cold War ended the decision was made to consolidate at KB and Bangor for the boomers, and PH, San D. and Norfolk/Groton for the fast boats.

We were the second wave into Holy Loch after the base was set up; relieved the Proteus. It was an unaccompanied tour in 1962, but after six months my folks bit the bullet and we dependents went over and lived on the economy without BAQ. At that time the "base" was a Quonset hut on the end of the pier containing the Exchange (geedunk mostly) and a guard shack. There was a Scottish constable permanently assigned to sit there in a folding chair during liberty hours. The Status of Forces Agreement said US sailors couldn't bring "pornography" ashore, and they considered Playboy magazine porn, so the constable searched the liberty launches as they moored.

I went back on offcrew in 1983 and there was a real, live base there. Dunoon looked smaller than it did when I was 5 YO, but my old school was still there, and my teacher remembered me. ("Oh, it's one of the wee boys!!!") Good memories.



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