Machine Guns Dying on the Offensive: Bug or Feature? (Full Version)

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springer -> Machine Guns Dying on the Offensive: Bug or Feature? (1/23/2010 6:18:14 PM)

In the Sixth Army AAR, there's a problem I notice. On the offensive, MGs die just like regular infantry. In your opinion is this a bug or a feature?

For the bug argument, I would see the following. The combat program should have a situation in which during an attack MGs function as backline units. In defensive situations, MGs function as frontline units. This would reflect doctrine that MGs are rarely units that springboard offenses. For the bug argument, I could see a suggestion to modify AT's combat engine.

For the feature argument, I would make the following. Having MGs act exactly like infantry on the offense is a matter of the player's operational decisions. If MG units are misdeployed in offensive operations, then the AT player gets what he (or less likely, she) deserves. The player should have ensured that MG heavy units stay out of the offensive battles. For the feature argument, I would see the deployment of MGs being one of the nuanced features that show the difference between a good and great AT player.



tweber -> RE: Machine Guns Dying on the Offensive: Bug or Feature? (1/23/2010 10:58:05 PM)

MGs in the standard unit set have as much HP as Rifle so they should received casualties in a comparable level.  The difference is they have slightly more than 2x attack power and 3x defense power.  So, they should probably inflict more casualties than if they were not there. 

You could make MGs back bench units (light mortars and guns).  If you did, the casualty levels would be much lower.  Another option would be to increase HP.  In the 6th Army campaign, it does not matter too much since there is not sftype production.  It would matter in a game with regular production.  Increases in capabilities should be offset with changes in cost.



Josh -> RE: Machine Guns Dying on the Offensive: Bug or Feature? (1/24/2010 10:39:52 AM)

Tom is right. (as usual I might add) I feel it is somewhat awkward to see the Mg's die like flies in an attack, but you can't do without them in a balanced unit....*and* they are much cheaper than backbench units. So maybe there should be distinction between Mg's and Heavy Mg's which would cost the same as Mortars.



Grymme -> RE: Machine Guns Dying on the Offensive: Bug or Feature? (1/24/2010 3:23:29 PM)

If it helps you can consider that at this scale the MGs are used tactically every bit as much as riflemen. They were very much in the first combat line. Also even though we coin things attack and defense in reality there is almost always a lot of fluid movements with small counterattacks etc. Finally you can consider that a lot of the casualties during WWII was caused by artillery, where MGs were equally vulnerable to riflemen. For a treatment of the use of MGs in WWII i recommend you read the classic novel "unknown soldier" (okänd soldat) by finnish author Väinö Linna.

So, all in all, i dont feel the MGs are handled unhistoricly. Now mortars, thats another matter. 



Josh -> RE: Machine Guns Dying on the Offensive: Bug or Feature? (1/24/2010 7:29:01 PM)

Yep, if there is one "Überstack" it is the dreaded Mortar stack. [:D]



springer -> RE: Machine Guns Dying on the Offensive: Bug or Feature? (1/25/2010 1:45:43 AM)

All the comments are insightful.

@ Tweber and Grymme
I particularly appreciate your comments on the MGs particular characteristics. You are both amongst the most experienced scenario designers, so beyond doubt you are both very familiar with the guts of the game engine as you pursue that quest to create great scenarios.



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