Fleet Refueling Why So Slow? (Full Version)

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Tanaka -> Fleet Refueling Why So Slow? (3/31/2010 3:19:00 AM)

Am I doing something wrong it takes my fleets FOREVER to refuel???



malkuth74 -> RE: Fleet Refueling Why So Slow? (3/31/2010 3:24:06 AM)

No your not. Thats just the way it is. Hence why some of us complain about how micromanagment refueling is. And why it needs to be automated.

Large fleets can take a very long time to fuel. Then you have the unfortunate thing of having 2 different engine types in your fleets with 2 different fuels. And then things go . AHHAAHAHAHAHH.

LOL.



theonlystd -> RE: Fleet Refueling Why So Slow? (3/31/2010 5:12:29 AM)

have less big fleets using the same port or refuel port? =p



Tanaka -> RE: Fleet Refueling Why So Slow? (3/31/2010 5:57:10 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: theonlystd

have less big fleets using the same port or refuel port? =p


I only have one fleet [:'(]



lancer -> RE: Fleet Refueling Why So Slow? (3/31/2010 6:14:11 AM)

Goodaye,

Imagine that you had a big fleet of warships in the Pacific (or anywhere) on Earth. To refuel them you have to send them to a port and berth them alongside a wharf (you can do it by tenders but for purposes of simplicity lets stick with the wharves).

The more wharves/jetties you have at your port the more ships you can refuel simultaneously. So a little flyspeck one-wharf port way out in the boondogs is going to take forever versus refuelling the fleet at 'Mega Port' with multiple wharves.

Distant Worlds works the same. Space Ports instead of Ports. Docking Bays instead of wharves. Take a look at the Space Port where you are refuelling the fleet, how many docking bays does it have?

If you want fast turnaround for fleet refuelling you have to design and build a Space Port with a lot of docking bays to get the throughput.

If you think of your empire being a series of 'Ports' then you are heading in the right direction. Add on the fact that ports differ in size (number of docking bays) and hence their ability to handle cargo/refuelling and you're about there.

Also your Space Ports need to have sufficient fuel stockpiled to cope with a big fleet otherwise your fleet sits there waiting while the freighters top up the stock. You can't go to war on the smell of an oily rag.

Getting your 'Ports' tweaked to your strategic requirements is a big part of the game.

[edit] Hey, I just noticed that you're a WiTP player. I shouldn't have to tell you this!

Cheers,
Lancer



Journier -> RE: Fleet Refueling Why So Slow? (3/31/2010 6:24:25 AM)

tanker ship that automatically unloaded fuel to ships in its fleet as they needed it would be so simple and solve all these issues :(



malkuth74 -> RE: Fleet Refueling Why So Slow? (3/31/2010 6:28:06 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: lancer

Goodaye,

Imagine that you had a big fleet of warships in the Pacific (or anywhere) on Earth. To refuel them you have to send them to a port and berth them alongside a wharf (you can do it by tenders but for purposes of simplicity lets stick with the wharves).

The more wharves/jetties you have at your port the more ships you can refuel simultaneously. So a little flyspeck one-wharf port way out in the boondogs is going to take forever versus refuelling the fleet at 'Mega Port' with multiple wharves.

Distant Worlds works the same. Space Ports instead of Ports. Docking Bays instead of wharves. Take a look at the Space Port where you are refuelling the fleet, how many docking bays does it have?

If you want fast turnaround for fleet refuelling you have to design and build a Space Port with a lot of docking bays to get the throughput.

If you think of your empire being a series of 'Ports' then you are heading in the right direction. Add on the fact that ports differ in size (number of docking bays) and hence their ability to handle cargo/refuelling and you're about there.

Getting your 'Ports' tweaked to your strategic requirements is a big part of the game.

[edit] Hey, I just noticed that you're a WiTP player. I shouldn't have to tell you this!

Cheers,
Lancer



Good day back too you.. Your situation which you seem to use a lot is invalid. When you can prove to me that the President of the united states personally goes down to the warf and makes sure that every individual ship is fueled. Then I will believe you story. what your saying is true. The problem is that You IE the president of your Star Empire does not personally oversee this part of the battle. He says go to this place... The admirals and fleet logistics people handle the supplies and the fueling not the president. IE YOU!

Nice try though. :)



lancer -> RE: Fleet Refueling Why So Slow? (3/31/2010 6:34:43 AM)

Goodaye,

Not sure if we are on the same page here.

I'm thinking Presidential thoughts. My job is to build space ports with enough capacity to refuel my war fleets in an adequate time. Kind of like me directing Admiral Wally to expand Hawaii so it can handle the sixth fleet.

Once that's in place then I let Admiral Wally refuel the sixth fleet, or any other, at Hawaii as he sees fit.

Off you go Admiral Wally. Conquer the Pacific. Call me when it's over.

Cheers,
Lancer



malkuth74 -> RE: Fleet Refueling Why So Slow? (3/31/2010 6:38:12 AM)

Yeah right now admiral wally want you to hold his hand though. And I want to fire his ass. :)

I see what your saying now. I agree. :)



forsaken1111 -> RE: Fleet Refueling Why So Slow? (3/31/2010 7:59:37 AM)

Still, the Automation's handling of fleets and fuel is not very good. I got a 'suggested attack' for a pirate base. It said fleet 3, a 16-ship fleet, would go take them out. I selected fleet 3 so I could watch, out of curiousity. The fleet met up at a spacedock, which I thought was good as half of them were out of fuel and one was damaged AND out of fuel. I watched some of the refuel, then suddenly they all took off for the pirate outpost! 7 of the 16 were extremely low on fuel, and ran out halfway there, the one ship never got repairs and died in the first volley. What the heck?



Gertjan -> RE: Fleet Refueling Why So Slow? (3/31/2010 10:51:30 AM)

I like the idea of having tankers.



Hyfrydle -> RE: Fleet Refueling Why So Slow? (3/31/2010 11:31:35 AM)

Refueling is definately not very good surely a fleet should be fully fueled and prepared before any attack I have numerous examples in my current game where ships whizz off to attack and arrive only to sit and do nothing while the enemy just picks them off one by one. Maybe the fuel usage is too high?



Athalian -> RE: Fleet Refueling Why So Slow? (3/31/2010 11:41:04 AM)

Or maby enable ships to dock with a station, eliminating fuel consumption and in doing so always have a fleet ready for battle. For that purpose you could design a station with loads of docking ports, enabling that station to recieve tons of goods and keeping a fleet on standby :)



Erik Rutins -> RE: Fleet Refueling Why So Slow? (3/31/2010 1:55:43 PM)

Regarding ships taking a long time to refuel, if they are simply not refueling your local fuel stocks may have run out, you can check this by double-clicking on the base or resupply ship and looking at its cargo. If it's just a matter of a large fleet taking time before all of them rotate through the available docking ports to refuel, that's part of the design.

Some good suggestions here though and in general we do want to make managing refueling and fleets easier for all players.



Gertjan -> RE: Fleet Refueling Why So Slow? (3/31/2010 2:20:37 PM)

How long does refueling per ship take (given that you have sufficient resources) and how many ships can dock at an AI designed starbase at the same time? Perhaps an idea is to have the possibility of ordering a fleet to refuel at a system (instead of at at colony) so that it spreads out itself to different bases/colonies (if there are more present of course).



HsojVvad -> RE: Fleet Refueling Why So Slow? (3/31/2010 3:12:32 PM)

So if my refueling ship has no cargo, how do I get cargo in there? Can I do something about it, or do I have to wait for the AI to fill the tank up again? I just made a resuply ship. Is this suppose to be a fuel tanker or is it something else? If this dosn't refuel ships, what refuels ships then?



tuser -> RE: Fleet Refueling Why So Slow? (3/31/2010 3:18:09 PM)

A refueling ship is essentially a mobile gas miner. you deploy it to a gas cloud or gas giant that has the fuel resource your ships need, and once it has some of the fuel in storage your ships can dock and refuel. Assuming you can get it to actually deploy and work, it's a little.. fidgety.



Banquet -> RE: Fleet Refueling Why So Slow? (3/31/2010 8:01:52 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

Regarding ships taking a long time to refuel, if they are simply not refueling your local fuel stocks may have run out, you can check this by double-clicking on the base or resupply ship and looking at its cargo. If it's just a matter of a large fleet taking time before all of them rotate through the available docking ports to refuel, that's part of the design.

Some good suggestions here though and in general we do want to make managing refueling and fleets easier for all players.

quote:

m


Erik,

Can you confirm whether the AI understands range and fuel, and how to use refueling ships, or if it just sends ships anywhere and trys to refuel them when they run out?



Erik Rutins -> RE: Fleet Refueling Why So Slow? (3/31/2010 10:07:21 PM)

The AI is supposed to understand range and fuel. In my test games at least I have seen it keep ship and fleet fuel status up and pull them back when fuel was low. I've also seen it stage resupply ships to support deeper operations. Is it doing that correctly in all cases? Maybe not, but saves would be helpful if you see it doing stupid things so that we can figure out why.



licker -> RE: Fleet Refueling Why So Slow? (4/1/2010 3:11:28 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins
If it's just a matter of a large fleet taking time before all of them rotate through the available docking ports to refuel, that's part of the design.


As Christopher Hitchens is wont to say... "Some design, ehh?"

Ok, to the point, yes, it is realistic. But, is it fun?

My answer is no, it's annoying.



ceyan -> RE: Fleet Refueling Why So Slow? (4/1/2010 4:54:22 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: licker


quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins
If it's just a matter of a large fleet taking time before all of them rotate through the available docking ports to refuel, that's part of the design.


As Christopher Hitchens is wont to say... "Some design, ehh?"

Ok, to the point, yes, it is realistic. But, is it fun?

My answer is no, it's annoying.



That is a bit ridiculous. Do you also have problems with the other limitations on the game? How can you even keep playing if you don't like the fact that you need a free construction yard (forgot the actual component name) in order to build a ship?

And either way, you're making it out to be more complicated than it is (or at least it seems like it). All you need is to base your fleets where you've got large space stations or many individual refueling areas. Now, granted, once you take automation out of the picture, that changes a bit, but that isn't what this is about. Complaining about this particular aspect is like complaining about having to have resources to build ships.



forsaken1111 -> RE: Fleet Refueling Why So Slow? (4/1/2010 5:00:26 AM)

I have no problem with ships taking time to refuel, I have issue with the way the AI handles said fueling.

Erik, how is resource distribution handled? Are gas levels evened out over the entire empire? If so, this would mean that building more spaceports is a bad idea unless you have the fuel sources to keep them up. I'd appreciate a way to designate certain bases as refueling depots or similar, so they know to order more gas and keep a higher level of fuel available.



licker -> RE: Fleet Refueling Why So Slow? (4/1/2010 5:51:56 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: ceyan


quote:

ORIGINAL: licker


quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins
If it's just a matter of a large fleet taking time before all of them rotate through the available docking ports to refuel, that's part of the design.


As Christopher Hitchens is wont to say... "Some design, ehh?"

Ok, to the point, yes, it is realistic. But, is it fun?

My answer is no, it's annoying.



That is a bit ridiculous. Do you also have problems with the other limitations on the game? How can you even keep playing if you don't like the fact that you need a free construction yard (forgot the actual component name) in order to build a ship?

And either way, you're making it out to be more complicated than it is (or at least it seems like it). All you need is to base your fleets where you've got large space stations or many individual refueling areas. Now, granted, once you take automation out of the picture, that changes a bit, but that isn't what this is about. Complaining about this particular aspect is like complaining about having to have resources to build ships.


Wow.

I say something is annoying to me and you jump to 'how can you even play the game'.

Defensive much?

This game has some issues, no one is denying that, but no one is saying anything is a game breaker either. Chill out and consider that certain elements which don't add anything to the overall game experience are probably not the best kinds of elements to bother defending. Ship building is another area of unnecessary frustration and complication.

It appears that suggestions to improve the UI on that screen are being considered, but apparently those people requesting it should 'stop playing' because it's possible to build ships anyway.



Tanaka -> RE: Fleet Refueling Why So Slow? (4/1/2010 5:57:01 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

Regarding ships taking a long time to refuel, if they are simply not refueling your local fuel stocks may have run out, you can check this by double-clicking on the base or resupply ship and looking at its cargo. If it's just a matter of a large fleet taking time before all of them rotate through the available docking ports to refuel, that's part of the design.

Some good suggestions here though and in general we do want to make managing refueling and fleets easier for all players.


Thanks Erik yep thats what they are doing rotating in and out. Now that I know its part of the design that helps. Are there any tips that I can do to make this faster in the game?



licker -> RE: Fleet Refueling Why So Slow? (4/1/2010 6:04:09 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Tanaka


quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

Regarding ships taking a long time to refuel, if they are simply not refueling your local fuel stocks may have run out, you can check this by double-clicking on the base or resupply ship and looking at its cargo. If it's just a matter of a large fleet taking time before all of them rotate through the available docking ports to refuel, that's part of the design.

Some good suggestions here though and in general we do want to make managing refueling and fleets easier for all players.


Thanks Erik yep thats what they are doing rotating in and out. Now that I know its part of the design that helps. Are there any tips that I can do to make this faster in the game?


Press the '=' key until you see the speed running at 4x...

Assuming you don't upgrade your docking bays or just build more of them.



forsaken1111 -> RE: Fleet Refueling Why So Slow? (4/1/2010 11:49:05 AM)

Yep, more docking bays will allow more ships at once to dock and fuel. Higher tech docking bays will allow fuel to flow faster.



Mark Weston -> RE: Fleet Refueling Why So Slow? (4/1/2010 1:10:43 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: licker


quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins
If it's just a matter of a large fleet taking time before all of them rotate through the available docking ports to refuel, that's part of the design.


As Christopher Hitchens is wont to say... "Some design, ehh?"

Ok, to the point, yes, it is realistic. But, is it fun?

My answer is no, it's annoying.


I disagree. I think logistical limitations make for a more challenging and interesting game. I want something more than "right-click on target, wait for pretty explosions."



Wade1000 -> RE: Fleet Refueling Why So Slow? (4/1/2010 2:08:06 PM)

-A very large fuel tanker/tender ship that has certain components allowing it to fuel/repair far deployed ships would be good. It could act like a freighter by carrying fuel from based resupply ships and bases to far deployed ships and repair them via components such as those in resupply ships and construction ships.

-Also, a later high technology component like a reactor/generator that elimates the need to refuel. It could be very large and only fit on lareg ships, including tankers/tenders and bases but it gets smaller with further research.



forsaken1111 -> RE: Fleet Refueling Why So Slow? (4/1/2010 2:11:26 PM)

I would also be quite happy letting civilians tender my fleet, provided they could keep up. It would be nice if civilians could grow to fill any niche that comes up, such as fueling concerns when large wars become common or big fleet actions start happening. They would buy fuel at the starbase/spaceport, fly out to your ships, you would buy their fuel at a slightly higher price. They would make some money, and you'd tax both transactions of course.



marc420 -> RE: Fleet Refueling Why So Slow? (4/5/2010 8:02:46 AM)


quote:

When you can prove to me that the President of the united states personally goes down to the warf and makes sure that every individual ship is fueled. Then I will believe you story. what your saying is true. The problem is that You IE the president of your Star Empire does not personally oversee this part of the battle. He says go to this place... The admirals and fleet logistics people handle the supplies and the fueling not the president. IE YOU!


Welcome to the faulty logic at the core of any RTS game.

Its the same faulty logic that says your scout ship is going to sit stopped at a planet because you, the grand admiral and the only person who can control things is currently watching the space battle against the pirates in another system.

RTS works nice for tactical situations. It breaks down the higher up above tactical that you go. And it breaks down for this reason that a organization of millions of people with a command and control organization and staff can actually mange to have the scout ship heading to the next correct planet to scout and keep track of the battle against the pirates in the other system all at the same time while a player in front of a computer screen can not.



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