PBEM support? (Full Version)

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Berkut -> PBEM support? (4/26/2010 4:04:41 AM)

Can someone comment on the planned support for PBEM?



Apollo11 -> RE: PBEM support? (4/26/2010 8:38:50 AM)

Hi all,

For best human vs. human enjoyment there is PBEM in WitE!

We are playing lots of TEST PBEMs (and doing that for months and months now)... don't worry about PBEM... [:)]


Leo "Apollo11"



Northern Star -> RE: PBEM support? (4/26/2010 12:12:56 PM)

PBEM is the most interesting thing you can do!
I experienced what I call the "PBEM curse": once you start playing pbem you won't play against the AI anymore.
When the game will be released I'd like to play as more pbem games as I can [:)]



elmo3 -> RE: PBEM support? (4/26/2010 12:29:49 PM)

We're using a workaround right now.  Once PBEM is full y implemented I'm sure we'll have more to say on the features of it.



Berkut -> RE: PBEM support? (4/26/2010 5:37:03 PM)

I agree that PBEM is the only way to really play any wargame.

Just hoping that some thought/work is put into the mechanics of the PBEM system. So often this is a hacked on afterthought, making PBEM a pain in the ass.

Look at something like Battles in Normandy/Italy to see how to do it properly...ideally the game should handle all the file creation AND COMPRESSION, at a minimum.



Zovs -> RE: PBEM support? (4/26/2010 5:52:26 PM)

quote:

I agree that PBEM is the only way to really play any wargame.


Well as a still active board war gamer technically I disagree. I typically meet 1-2 times a month to play ASL (Advanced Squad Leader) face to face with live opponents. I go to an ASL tournament once or twice a year (face to face action) and I have been teaching my 14 year old son ASLSK (ASL Starter Kit) so I know what you mean, but there still is a lot of active board war gamers out there, in the shadows, rolling dice....[8D]



Capt Cliff -> RE: PBEM support? (4/26/2010 7:03:55 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: dlazov66

quote:

I agree that PBEM is the only way to really play any wargame.


Well as a still active board war gamer technically I disagree. I typically meet 1-2 times a month to play ASL (Advanced Squad Leader) face to face with live opponents. I go to an ASL tournament once or twice a year (face to face action) and I have been teaching my 14 year old son ASLSK (ASL Starter Kit) so I know what you mean, but there still is a lot of active board war gamers out there, in the shadows, rolling dice....[8D]



WHAT??!! Someone still playing Squad Leader!!!??? [X(][sm=happy0065.gif]

Tell me ... is Sargent Steiner still alive or did he finally buy the farm???

Sorry to say I am a Combat Mission man now. No more tumbling dice for me.



Zovs -> RE: PBEM support? (4/26/2010 7:43:07 PM)

Capt. Cliff,

You ready for a rude shock? Besides my self, my son and one of my best buddies, at his house we meet once a month (Thursdays) to play ASL usually there are between 2 and 12 people that meet here. Once a year he has a mini-tourny adn about 10-18 show up to play ASL.

There is another ASL group towards the city I have not been able to make it thier in a year or so, but they have 4-8 show up once a month (differnet from our group), I also know 2-4 in the city that play ASL and some in other parts of the state and in WI and IN that play ASL. There is also another group that plays a lot of MMP stuff (the old Gamers) using the OCS (Operational Combat Series) series. They have also (get ready) played a game of WIE (War in Europe the old SPI game) and my one buddy up in WI loves the TSS (Terrible Swift Sword) Civil War games. He also has a miniature group he attends.

There is a another group 20 miles from me that plays the classics (AH, D-Day, Battle of the Bulge, Afrika Korps, etc.) of about 10-30 people.

Oh, there is a WI group that plays Europa (the old GDW or GRD company that went belly up and the ones that created Fire in the East/Scorched Earth).

Lucky for me I live in IL but am very close to the WI border and it's only 1.5 hours into downtown.

So I know (persnally, or face to face) in my area 20-75 board war gamers.

Oh, and Sgt. Steiner is still alive (most times, lol) I have 2-3 of him (Beyond Valor 1 & 3). 



FM WarB -> RE: PBEM support? (4/26/2010 8:28:03 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Berkut

I agree that PBEM is the only way to really play any wargame.

Just hoping that some thought/work is put into the mechanics of the PBEM system. So often this is a hacked on afterthought, making PBEM a pain in the ass.

Look at something like Battles in Normandy/Italy to see how to do it properly...ideally the game should handle all the file creation AND COMPRESSION, at a minimum.



Compression not necessary; I can Zip. Make it simple ala John Tiller games, not cumbersome ala Aegod games, please.



PyleDriver -> RE: PBEM support? (4/26/2010 8:38:46 PM)

Well I'm sure that this will be a WBTS system for PBEM. We can't stop a cheater, however you will know he is. Really who wan't to play with a cheater anyway... Right now we have PBEM going on and were playing an honor system among us testers...



PyleDriver -> RE: PBEM support? (4/26/2010 8:53:52 PM)

One last comment, my dad allways told me. Locks are to keep honest people honest...So people you play online need to screened, and if weird crap happens, you'll know...



Shadrach -> RE: PBEM support? (4/26/2010 9:09:44 PM)

Will PBEM work with the tools like PBEM Helper (http://www.nic.fi/~fuerte/pbem.htm) - I.e. pretty simple stuff, you need a savegame in a fixed format located in a known folder and it will zip it up and mail it to you. For this to work the game needs to not make the save game format obscure?



Berkut -> RE: PBEM support? (4/27/2010 1:51:13 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Capt Cliff


quote:

ORIGINAL: dlazov66

quote:

I agree that PBEM is the only way to really play any wargame.


Well as a still active board war gamer technically I disagree. I typically meet 1-2 times a month to play ASL (Advanced Squad Leader) face to face with live opponents. I go to an ASL tournament once or twice a year (face to face action) and I have been teaching my 14 year old son ASLSK (ASL Starter Kit) so I know what you mean, but there still is a lot of active board war gamers out there, in the shadows, rolling dice....[8D]



WHAT??!! Someone still playing Squad Leader!!!??? [X(][sm=happy0065.gif]

Tell me ... is Sargent Steiner still alive or did he finally buy the farm???

Sorry to say I am a Combat Mission man now. No more tumbling dice for me.




Oh, I didn't really mean PBEM is the only way to play wargames - more that it is the only way to play wargames via PC.

I am fortunate enough to live in an area with a very active FtF gaming community. About 30 of us meet once a month all day Saturday to wargame (had an excellent game of Paths of Glory this Saturday that went to turn 20, and I won by 1 VP as the CP), and I generally manage to get together 2-3 additional times per month for FtF gaming.



Berkut -> RE: PBEM support? (4/27/2010 1:52:36 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: PyleDriver

Well I'm sure that this will be a WBTS system for PBEM. We can't stop a cheater, however you will know he is. Really who wan't to play with a cheater anyway... Right now we have PBEM going on and were playing an honor system among us testers...


Compression IS necessary - there is no reason to add another manual step in the process for the players, and another point of failure to deal with if they other guy is using some other kind of compression utility.

Just have the game do it itself.



Zovs -> RE: PBEM support? (4/27/2010 3:14:48 PM)

Oh, besides here in the USA where we can play board war games face to face I found this:

http://www.boardwars.forum24.ru/?1-15-0-00000039-000-0-0-1271087215

[;)]



HannoMeier -> RE: PBEM support? (4/27/2010 4:15:05 PM)

From my point of view, it is most important to have:

- a good replay function of the opponents turn (movement and all combats)
- which also works for team games (like 2vs2 games, where 2 players could see the moves of the 2 other players)

This works for example in HPS Panzer Campaigns.

Regards, Hanno



FM WarB -> RE: PBEM support? (4/27/2010 8:45:07 PM)

Good point, Hanno; replays are especially useful in team games and PBEM play should support them.

HPS games also allow you to save the file before ending the turn and sending it along. This allows you to review your turn and plan ahead while waiting for the opponent's move. This is useful, once you get over the "Damn, I forgot to move THAT unit!?!" moments.



Neal_MLC -> RE: PBEM support? (4/27/2010 10:11:14 PM)

I don't like PBEM games simply because everyone I play beats the crap out of me[:D]



Capt Cliff -> RE: PBEM support? (4/28/2010 6:59:48 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: dlazov66

Capt. Cliff,

You ready for a rude shock? Besides my self, my son and one of my best buddies, at his house we meet once a month (Thursdays) to play ASL usually there are between 2 and 12 people that meet here. Once a year he has a mini-tourny adn about 10-18 show up to play ASL.

There is another ASL group towards the city I have not been able to make it thier in a year or so, but they have 4-8 show up once a month (differnet from our group), I also know 2-4 in the city that play ASL and some in other parts of the state and in WI and IN that play ASL. There is also another group that plays a lot of MMP stuff (the old Gamers) using the OCS (Operational Combat Series) series. They have also (get ready) played a game of WIE (War in Europe the old SPI game) and my one buddy up in WI loves the TSS (Terrible Swift Sword) Civil War games. He also has a miniature group he attends.

There is a another group 20 miles from me that plays the classics (AH, D-Day, Battle of the Bulge, Afrika Korps, etc.) of about 10-30 people.

Oh, there is a WI group that plays Europa (the old GDW or GRD company that went belly up and the ones that created Fire in the East/Scorched Earth).

Lucky for me I live in IL but am very close to the WI border and it's only 1.5 hours into downtown.

So I know (persnally, or face to face) in my area 20-75 board war gamers.

Oh, and Sgt. Steiner is still alive (most times, lol) I have 2-3 of him (Beyond Valor 1 & 3). 


Nice to know that ASL is still alive and kicking, and that you have such a large player base. But I sure don't miss the hassle over LOS, moving in the open and all the other problems with a board game at tactical level. I am sure if you tried Combat Mission you'd fall in love!!



Zovs -> RE: PBEM support? (4/28/2010 8:07:10 PM)

Sorry I am an old ASL junkie (started playing Squad Leader in 1978 and switched to ASL in 1987) its like an old mistress. Once your in with a good bunch of guys we all pretty much know the LOS from map to map at a glance and rarely string it, also there is usually enough fellows around so that looking up rules in the mighty tomb is also a rarity.

Don't think I'll ever get a divorce from the old gal... 



Michael T -> RE: PBEM support? (4/28/2010 10:36:33 PM)

Same here. ASL forever. We have a small group of devoted boardgamers in Queensland Australia. You know the problem with PC gaming comes down to 3 things, little or no social interaction, they are always bug riddled and you can't change any rules if you think they suck. None of those problems with boardgames. Still I love my PC gaming as well. But time after time I keep going back to the stable and relatively bug free environment of HPS games, come on Matrix can you actually deliver a game that might be bug free after version 2.218? I am hopeful that WITE might be the first....of course there is absolutely no hope it will work properly with version 1.0. But I will buy it anyway and go along for the ride. To get back on topic, please make a simple and reliable PBEM system in the game. Its the only way I play. [&o]



PyleDriver -> RE: PBEM support? (4/29/2010 2:48:41 AM)

Well we have the big bugs out. Guys like Ron, Don and Lee go after the ones the crawl in the dark. Like proper air support, production and supply, ect, ect ...These guys are after it...Then theres Leo, this guy does sub tests on tests...Then theres Andy, trust me never play this guy, he'll spank you worst than a French whore. He's our bug manager...So were doing alot of work for a small group. My guess, it will be a great PBEM game...



Michael T -> RE: PBEM support? (4/29/2010 4:34:00 AM)

Well that sounds encouraging. But all of my previous Matrix purchases EIA, BTR/BOB and TOW are all gathering dust waiting for a future patch that will make playing PBEM (without bugs and/or other associated problems) possible, dare I say pleasurable. I hope WITE breaks the trend....



Berkut -> RE: PBEM support? (4/29/2010 2:09:16 PM)

Well, think of it like this:

ASL was pretty damn buggy - it received about 800 patches, depending on how you are counting.

But there is buggy, and then there is balanced. They are by no means the same thing. Plenty of games end up pretty bug free, very few ever end up being well balanced once the sharks get their hands on them.

Anyone up for an ACTS Paths of Glory game?



Zovs -> RE: PBEM support? (4/29/2010 2:41:29 PM)

quote:

ASL was pretty damn buggy


This does not even make any sense. ASL (Advanced Squad Leader for the uneducated) is a board war game, using cardboard marker chits and paper rules and charts that the players must actually read and consult and to play the game, not to mention various modules that include more chits (counters), rules, charts, scenario cards and lets not forget the geometric maps.

Has there been errata, yes, did MMP after AH went out of business create a 2nd edition of the rule book, yes. Is it 'buggy' no. Only software can really contain bugs, written words or manual war games can't in that traditional sense. They may have clarification or errta but there are no bugs in paper war games.

Oh, ASL has never had any 'patches' so you really must be talking about some thing completely different.

What I am referring to is the following:

http://www.multimanpublishing.com/ASL/prodaslrb.php

I have no idea what your talking about in your references to ASL (being buggy and 800 patches).



Berkut -> RE: PBEM support? (4/29/2010 4:03:20 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: dlazov66

quote:

ASL was pretty damn buggy


This does not even make any sense. ASL (Advanced Squad Leader for the uneducated) is a board war game, using cardboard marker chits and paper rules and charts that the players must actually read and consult and to play the game, not to mention various modules that include more chits (counters), rules, charts, scenario cards and lets not forget the geometric maps.

Has there been errata, yes, did MMP after AH went out of business create a 2nd edition of the rule book, yes. Is it 'buggy' no. Only software can really contain bugs, written words or manual war games can't in that traditional sense. They may have clarification or errta but there are no bugs in paper war games.

Oh, ASL has never had any 'patches' so you really must be talking about some thing completely different.

What I am referring to is the following:

http://www.multimanpublishing.com/ASL/prodaslrb.php

I have no idea what your talking about in your references to ASL (being buggy and 800 patches).




I know exactly what I am talking about - I've been playing ASL since it was just SL.

It was most certainly "buggy", in that it had errors. It had rules that were poorly written, and made no sense. It has gone through literally hundreds of revisions since the game of Squad Leader was released some 20something years ago. Or is it 30something now?

Those rules have been changed time and time and time again. Those cardboard counters have been released with the wrong information on them, and been re-released. The maps have been re-done, even, and they've released patches for the maps. The charts have been revised. In fact, every single piece of "stuff" that constitutes what we now know as "ASL" has probably been changed at some point. Some of that is adding new stuff, and plenty of it has been fixing broken stuff (bugs).

I've been playing ASL for a very, very long time, and own a couple thousand dollars (roughly) worth of ASL "stuff". It has most certainly contained bugs, defined as unintended or broken systems that are later "fixed" through some revisions of the rules of components.



Capt Cliff -> RE: PBEM support? (4/29/2010 7:38:50 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: dlazov66

Sorry I am an old ASL junkie (started playing Squad Leader in 1978 and switched to ASL in 1987) its like an old mistress. Once your in with a good bunch of guys we all pretty much know the LOS from map to map at a glance and rarely string it, also there is usually enough fellows around so that looking up rules in the mighty tomb is also a rarity.

Don't think I'll ever get a divorce from the old gal... 


"Luke it is your destiny ...." I played more SL than ASL. Bought SL when it first came out and was a SL junkie. But I got tired of the maps, same ole terrain to fight over. I assume there are more maps now but nothing beats a map editor in a computer. CM allows you to play operations, multiple battles which are really cool. Battle are about 40 min real time where turns are 1 min, you plot your moves per turn. *sigh* Nothing like losing that Tiger to the US bazooka team when they get a chance rear turret hit. I even checked the Tiger rear turret armor thickness and bazooka penetration, and dam it was modelled correctly. Didn't have that in SL. But ... back to the thread

An yes PBEM is the only way to fly ... getting back to the thread title that is.



Michael T -> RE: PBEM support? (4/29/2010 10:05:49 PM)

But when you had your Tiger knocked out did your opponent get to see your face? Thats half the fun. [:D] Seriously each method, Boardgame or PC has its pro's and con's. My point is that anyone can fix a 'bug' in written rules to his or her satisfaction and continue playing. That ain't so in a PC game. And bye the way, do you think CM will still be around in 30 years? SL/ASL has already passed that milestone and continues on....



Zovs -> RE: PBEM support? (4/29/2010 10:25:24 PM)

quote:

I know exactly what I am talking about - I've been playing ASL since it was just SL.


Well here we completely disagree. I started playing Squad Leader in 1978, and went through the usual cycle of COI, COD and GI. When ASL came out in 1986 I switched a year later.

ASL is not buggy and can never be because it's not a software program. By definition (which you seem to keep missing) bugs are only in software. Just because you don't understand the rules does not make it 'buggy' I currently attend 2 ASL clubs and play with 4-18 ASL players and we have been playing ASL for years with no 'bugs'.

Lets drop the discussion of ASL here please and keep it on WitE PBEM.



Fred98 -> RE: PBEM support? (4/30/2010 1:18:12 AM)

Face to face across a table is the best way to play any game.

I have a vision that one day we can project a game onto a wall the size of a squash court and play face to face.

For fog of war: The Axis wear grey glasses, The Allies wear green glasses and the Soviets wear red glases. And then we can only see our own troops on the map.

Have a nice day ![8D]


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