PDU = off. Does anyone play with this setting (Full Version)

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vettim89 -> PDU = off. Does anyone play with this setting (5/2/2010 4:17:17 PM)

Having always played with PDU on, I was wondering if anyone plays with PDU off. Would love to hear some comments by anyone who does as far as how it affects the game play. Does it affect the Japanese player more than the Allied? How do you feel about playing with PDU off vs on as far as affecting game play? What are the cases to be made for PDU on vs PDU off?



mike scholl 1 -> RE: PDU = off. Does anyone play with this setting (5/2/2010 7:45:42 PM)

I've always played with it off.  Seems to me to be a very pro-Japanese modification to play.  If faced with a potential opponent who wanted to play with it on, I'd ask for something pro-Allied in return..., like working US torpedoes.



topeverest -> RE: PDU = off. Does anyone play with this setting (5/2/2010 9:36:30 PM)

Since the first time I played, I always play with it on and dont ask for anything extra for the allies. To me it is natural that the player should have a wider choice of upgrade options. Besides, both me and my opponent felt it unnecisarily restrictive for our play tastes. My view is that pilot skill and experience is more important than airframe type.



PaxMondo -> RE: PDU = off. Does anyone play with this setting (5/3/2010 1:33:44 AM)

Always on.  Agree with Andy, not sure it really matters much in the long run.  BUT, in terms of fun, yeah, PDU ON adds a lot of fun.



mike scholl 1 -> RE: PDU = off. Does anyone play with this setting (5/3/2010 10:47:47 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: topeverest

Since the first time I played, I always play with it on and dont ask for anything extra for the allies. To me it is natural that the player should have a wider choice of upgrade options.



I might buy this..., but only the Japanese side can alter it's A/C production. That makes PDU very pro-Japanese.



PMCN -> RE: PDU = off. Does anyone play with this setting (5/3/2010 10:52:56 AM)

I play with it off.  I don't think it is something I should have any influence over, so to me it is much more realistic than being able to change the planes a group is flying at will.  It is also one less thing I have to worry about from turn to turn.



Athius -> RE: PDU = off. Does anyone play with this setting (5/3/2010 12:07:25 PM)

I like to (mirco)manage the production and the economy, and I really like the extra flexibility that PDU on gives me, so I leave it on most times.



Marcus_Antonius -> RE: PDU = off. Does anyone play with this setting (5/3/2010 12:16:18 PM)

I can't agree. The historical planes types in the different groups were determined in the war based on what the historical Japanese were building/had available. If the game is giving the Japanese player the responsibility of determining the right balance of aircraft types, it seems silly to constrain him/her by having to fill the squadrons in the exact same way the historical Japanese chose to.

As far as giving tha allies reliable torps from the start...game over in 1942 [;)]


quote:

ORIGINAL: Paul McNeely

I play with it off.  I don't think it is something I should have any influence over, so to me it is much more realistic than being able to change the planes a group is flying at will.  It is also one less thing I have to worry about from turn to turn.




castor troy -> RE: PDU = off. Does anyone play with this setting (5/3/2010 12:33:14 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: mike scholl 1

I've always played with it off.  Seems to me to be a very pro-Japanese modification to play.  If faced with a potential opponent who wanted to play with it on, I'd ask for something pro-Allied in return..., like working US torpedoes.



in a PBEM this would end the war one year earlier at least IMO as you would have probably whiped out the enemy merchant marine in early 44 if you start sinking merchants in the hundreds in 42 already.



PMCN -> RE: PDU = off. Does anyone play with this setting (5/3/2010 2:54:18 PM)

I understand what you are saying but I don't think it is a good idea in a historical simulation to allow players to control production. It always ends up with a change from a historical simulation to a game of "Blue Force" versus "Red Force." Not to mention min-maxing and other such joys.

If that is your cup of tea, fill your boot. For me I want a simulation of the historic setting. I don't think that results in a lock step with what happened historically either. I find that the worst straw man argument in existence.

But again this is my view on it, I doubt very much it is widely held and I understand the reason people prefer something where they can "twiddle" more. From time to time I feel the call of the dark side even.



mike scholl 1 -> RE: PDU = off. Does anyone play with this setting (5/3/2010 3:10:55 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: a_gonatas

I can't agree. The historical planes types in the different groups were determined in the war based on what the historical Japanese were building/had available. If the game is giving the Japanese player the responsibility of determining the right balance of aircraft types, it seems silly to constrain him/her by having to fill the squadrons in the exact same way the historical Japanese chose to.
[;)]


But of course it's perfectly fine to "constrain" the Allies to historical limits. Sorry, I don't buy it. PDU is a pro-Japanese change in the game.



SqzMyLemon -> RE: PDU = off. Does anyone play with this setting (5/3/2010 5:45:43 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Paul McNeely

I understand what you are saying but I don't think it is a good idea in a historical simulation to allow players to control production. It always ends up with a change from a historical simulation to a game of "Blue Force" versus "Red Force." Not to mention min-maxing and other such joys.

If that is your cup of tea, fill your boot. For me I want a simulation of the historic setting. I don't think that results in a lock step with what happened historically either. I find that the worst straw man argument in existence.

But again this is my view on it, I doubt very much it is widely held and I understand the reason people prefer something where they can "twiddle" more. From time to time I feel the call of the dark side even.


I am playing 2 games with both settings as Japan. My AAR is with PDU off and another game is with PDU on. I have to admit I like the flexibility of PDU on to improve my overall air ability in the game. With PDU off in the AAR I'm very limited in the number of units I can actually upgrade to better models, and many of my squadrons can't change to newer models till mid-43 and in many cases that is going from a Sonia I to a Sonia Ib [:D]. I have so many Nate, Sonia and Ann units that I just can't mount far reaching invasions with adequate air support. That being said I like the challenge of trying to actually use what I have been given to the best of my ability.

You can look at things two ways. PDU off allows you to see if you can do better in the game compared to what actually happened historically, but it is limiting in what you can do as Japan in my opinion. PDU on allows you to markedly improve Japan's chances of putting up a sustained fight throughtout the game. I like both, but if I wanted to just play a simulation in which I have no chance of actually winning the war, or doing things differently to see what might have happened, then why bother ever playing Japan? As I mentioned, I like both...so it all comes down to what playing style people prefer, but if this was purely a simulation of historical events, I wouldn't be playing this game.



CapAndGown -> RE: PDU = off. Does anyone play with this setting (5/3/2010 6:31:31 PM)

With PDU off, there is really no reason for the player to have control over airplane production. Indeed, playing with PDU off would make the job of managing the economy much, much harder. Anyone thinking that playing with PDU off would make their life easier as Japan would quickly discover that the opposite would be the case.



SqzMyLemon -> RE: PDU = off. Does anyone play with this setting (5/3/2010 7:27:18 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: cap_and_gown

With PDU off, there is really no reason for the player to have control over airplane production. Indeed, playing with PDU off would make the job of managing the economy much, much harder. Anyone thinking that playing with PDU off would make their life easier as Japan would quickly discover that the opposite would be the case.


I totally agree cag. I find I have to be very careful mucking around with factories and such. WIth PDU off you pretty much have to produce everything and if you get a little too carefree it will affect things later. I'm actually working on how soon I can run the Japanese economy into the gorund my first time around. [:D]



AcePylut -> RE: PDU = off. Does anyone play with this setting (5/3/2010 7:34:54 PM)

What drives me nuts is players that play Scenario 2 with Jap PDU on, then make comments like "japs never produced 1000 Tojo's a month - this game is borked"



USS Henrico -> RE: PDU = off. Does anyone play with this setting (5/4/2010 4:18:19 AM)

I never used PDU on playing the AI, partly as a handicap and partly because there seemed to be horror stories from the original game about using it.

Playing as the Allies in PBEM, I've found PDU on useful to maximize the use of airframes in the early going, just by occasional use. I manually upgraded the Dutch fighter squadrons to P-40s: those would have been wasted otherwise, because there seemed to be no upgrades scheduled. I also gave an AVG squadron P-400s after realizing there was only one rear area squadron using them and 70 planes in the pool. The Chinese got a squadron equipped from the thirty odd leftover fighters after the three AVG squadrons upgraded, which also would have wasted otherwise. None of these are exactly war winners, but useful for keeping your Japanese opponent at least a little honest.

PDU on probably helps the Japanese more, but it is not totally one sided.



bbbf -> RE: PDU = off. Does anyone play with this setting (5/4/2010 4:29:06 AM)

I am playing as Allies, and I feel PDU off does not benefit me at all.

With PDU on, I could juggle my planes a whole lot better.

With PDU off, you don't get to downgrade to free up valuable airframes.



Fletcher -> RE: PDU = off. Does anyone play with this setting (5/4/2010 11:37:41 AM)

I am playing like japanese with PDU Off. I agree with Mike that PDU ON is very pro-japanese.
Regards
Ramón



jimh009 -> RE: PDU = off. Does anyone play with this setting (5/4/2010 12:45:20 PM)

I initially had PDU off as the Allied player, but ran into problems with several plane squadrons being "stuck" in a endless loop - their upgrade path was circular (old planes upgrading to modern planes but then "upgrading back" to older planes then going back to the original modern plane). So I had to turn PDU off to break this cycle.

By and large, both for historical use and simplicity, I do tend to follow the general upgrade path. But on occasion the flexibility is nice - and needed.



Marcus_Antonius -> RE: PDU = off. Does anyone play with this setting (5/6/2010 11:53:17 AM)

The allies are getting the historical numbers of each type already. They can't change their building strategy much if at all?


quote:

ORIGINAL: mike scholl 1


quote:

ORIGINAL: a_gonatas

I can't agree. The historical planes types in the different groups were determined in the war based on what the historical Japanese were building/had available. If the game is giving the Japanese player the responsibility of determining the right balance of aircraft types, it seems silly to constrain him/her by having to fill the squadrons in the exact same way the historical Japanese chose to.
[;)]


But of course it's perfectly fine to "constrain" the Allies to historical limits. Sorry, I don't buy it. PDU is a pro-Japanese change in the game.





Marcus_Antonius -> RE: PDU = off. Does anyone play with this setting (5/6/2010 12:05:01 PM)

As Japanese isn't PDU off going to constrain your building strategy to the point you are merely choosing which historical groups to fill and which not to fill?

What's the point of the whole airframe/engine production hassel if all you are is filling game defined orders?

Its not one sided, and its not like the Japanese can equip groups into radically different types of planes than they actually used. Its some flexibility for both sides. You can downgrade groups to obsolete types and use them in training commands. That works nice.

Plenty of you guys seem to play scenario two. THAT is pro Japanese. In those games you seem to see China going down and the Japs in Fiji and stuff like that. I prefer scenario one. Its a more desperate game for the Japanese, and more interesting.



mike scholl 1 -> RE: PDU = off. Does anyone play with this setting (5/6/2010 12:07:54 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: a_gonatas

The allies are getting the historical numbers of each type already. They can't change their building strategy much if at all?


EXACTLY! Which is why "PDU on" is totally pro-Japanese...



Marcus_Antonius -> RE: PDU = off. Does anyone play with this setting (5/6/2010 2:19:04 PM)

Ok Mike. I agree if by "totally Japanese" you actually mean something like "necessary to make the most of the Japanese production choice ability and also useful in giving both sides more flexibility in forming training groups etc...." [;)]



mike scholl 1 -> RE: PDU = off. Does anyone play with this setting (5/6/2010 8:41:28 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: a_gonatas

Ok Mike. I agree if by "totally Japanese" you actually mean something like "necessary to make the most of the Japanese production choice ability and also useful in giving both sides more flexibility in forming training groups etc...." [;)]


Actually I mean "Allowing the Japanese Player to switch his production and air groups to nothing but the best A/C Japan ever designed, while forcing the Allied player to play with his historical A/C production."

We generally force the Allied player to live with his side's historical mistakes (like the Mk XIV torpedo), so why let the Japanese side out from under it's historic screw-ups? It's a one-sided option.



vettim89 -> RE: PDU = off. Does anyone play with this setting (5/7/2010 4:09:19 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: mike scholl 1


quote:

ORIGINAL: a_gonatas

Ok Mike. I agree if by "totally Japanese" you actually mean something like "necessary to make the most of the Japanese production choice ability and also useful in giving both sides more flexibility in forming training groups etc...." [;)]


Actually I mean "Allowing the Japanese Player to switch his production and air groups to nothing but the best A/C Japan ever designed, while forcing the Allied player to play with his historical A/C production."

We generally force the Allied player to live with his side's historical mistakes (like the Mk XIV torpedo), so why let the Japanese side out from under it's historic screw-ups? It's a one-sided option.



I have to agree with Mike here at least on principle. The threads in this forum regarding Japanese aircraft production usually start with things like "Turn off Nate production" and "Convert all GM3 factories to GM4", etc.

Well if the game treated aircraft production equally the counterpart Allied thread would read "Convert all P-39 factories to P-40E" and "Put as many factories into P-47 and P-51 research as you can". Point being if the Allies could transfrom their aircraft production the way the Japanese can, it would be a much different game.

That said, I used to get me hackles up (ask in the Geezer thread if you don't know what that means) about WITP/AE's Japanocentric tendencies. Now, I realize that these are games not simulations. Games should be fun. They would not be fun if the Japanese were forced to lose the war historicaly now would they? So I am willing to tolerate some liberties for the Japanese side but do have to draw a line somewhere.



topeverest -> RE: PDU = off. Does anyone play with this setting (5/7/2010 6:38:20 AM)

I see the question as perfunctory, because the players are allowed to play it on or off, and mods can be made to effect allied alternate production.

There is room for just about every taste, and that is excellent design work.



mike scholl 1 -> RE: PDU = off. Does anyone play with this setting (5/7/2010 10:44:15 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: topeverest

I see the question as perfunctory, because the players are allowed to play it on or off, and mods can be made to effect allied alternate production.

There is room for just about every taste, and that is excellent design work.


[:D]RIGHT![:D] Just try and find a Japanese opponent for a "mod" that changes all Allied A/C production and research to nothing but a half dozen of their best types. [8|][8|]

At least "vettim89" gets it. It's a pro-Japanese option, pure and simple. I just ask that everyone recognize and admit it instead of trying to conjure up silly "historical" justifications for it.



CaptDave -> RE: PDU = off. Does anyone play with this setting (5/7/2010 9:28:25 PM)

A thought just occurred to me that in my mind, at least, partially justifies not giving the Allies the same level of flexibility that Japan gets.  We need to remember that the US, the UK, and Canada (and the others, except China, to a lesser extent, particularly where aircraft are concerned) were fighting two wars, one in the Pacific and one in Europe.  Since we don't get to simulate what's happening in the other half of the world, it makes sense to me to put some restraints in place.

I look forward to the day when home computers are powerful enough and inexpensive enough, and developers are crazy enough, to support a simulation of the war in all theaters!  Note: I'm not holding my breath.



kaleun -> RE: PDU = off. Does anyone play with this setting (5/8/2010 4:00:52 PM)

Playing as allies with PDU on allows me to shift my aircraft around. For instance, my B26 unit in Solomon is running out of repalcements, there are too few B26 in the pool, but there are plenty A20, Presto, I "upgrade" it to A 20 and have a functional unit again.



Jim D Burns -> RE: PDU = off. Does anyone play with this setting (5/9/2010 12:51:10 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: kaleun

Playing as allies with PDU on allows me to shift my aircraft around. For instance, my B26 unit in Solomon is running out of repalcements, there are too few B26 in the pool, but there are plenty A20, Presto, I "upgrade" it to A 20 and have a functional unit again.


Yeah, but the trade off is, all Japanese fighter groups on map will be zeroes and Tony's, so in the end you'll lose 10 times as many of your A 20s to all the extra fighter groups with uber planes in them as you normally would.

Allowing one side to tweak its airframe production to maximize its potential while constraining the other side to draconian limits is not a fair/neutral option. As Mike said, it is a heavily biased pro-Japanese option, and fair-minded players who request its use should realize this.

Jim



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