What in the world is Strategic OpMode in roads? (Full Version)

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fbs -> What in the world is Strategic OpMode in roads? (5/17/2010 6:50:33 PM)

Manual, p. 185: "The Allies can utilize Strategic OpMode on rail lines and Main Roads. The Japanese are limited to using Strategic OpMode on rail lines."

I'm throughly confused with that. When a unit is in Strategic OpMode and on top of a rail line, they will move with rail movement speed (if possible) rather than with road or terrain speed. So what happens if an Allied unit is on a Main Road and changes to Strategic OpMode? On Combat Move they would move at Main Road speed... which speed will Strategic OpMode give them?



LoBaron -> RE: What in the world is Strategic OpMode in roads? (5/17/2010 6:53:20 PM)

You have to be at a base that either is connected via rail or main road to another base to utilize this.
So when you change to OpMode in the middle of the jungle this wonīt help, even if there a main road or a rail present.



treespider -> RE: What in the world is Strategic OpMode in roads? (5/17/2010 6:57:01 PM)

Strat MODE also means all of the quiopment for the unit has been palletized...which makes for very efficient loading of units onto ships and trucks and trains...but does not make the unit very combat effective and leaves the unit vulnerable to all sorts of attacks.



LoBaron -> RE: What in the world is Strategic OpMode in roads? (5/17/2010 6:59:34 PM)

And speed is fast. [;)]
Very fast...



fbs -> RE: What in the world is Strategic OpMode in roads? (5/17/2010 7:39:29 PM)

So is there a movement speed benefit for being in strategic mode in a base with roads only, or not?

Also, I'm not sure the paragraph is precise. I can put my units in Kunming in strategic mode, because there is a rail line there; but I can't put my units in Kweiyang in strategic mode, even if there is a Main Road at that base (and it is connected to other bases that have Main Roads). Oddly, I can put my units at Wendover Field or Great Falls in strategic mode, although that base is identical to Kweiyang (it has a Main Road an nothing else), although I cannot put in Ondorhaan (which is identical to Wendover). There must be something else at work regarding the ability to put units in strategic mode.

So the part about Allies being able to put units in strategic mode in bases that have Main Roads doesn't seem to match the manual at all. Perhaps that is for USA and Australia, but not China or USSR?

Meanwhile I can put my units in ports in strategic mode, whether there are railroads or main roads or not - I guess that I can do that in order to load them in boats. That seems reasonable and consistent.

Another question around that: I have a unit sitting on top of a major rail line, but not on a base. I can't put it in strategic mode; so they cannot embark a train unless they are in a train terminal?



treespider -> RE: What in the world is Strategic OpMode in roads? (5/17/2010 7:43:39 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: fbs
So is there a movement speed benefit for being in strategic mode in a base with roads only, or not?


Yes

quote:

Also, I'm not sure the paragraph is precise. I can put my units in Kunming in strategic mode, because there is a rail line there; but I can't put my units in Kweiyang in strategic mode, even if there is a Main Road at that base (and it is connected to other bases that have Main Roads). Oddly, I can put my units at Wendover Field or Great Falls in strategic mode, although that base is identical to Kweiyang (it has a Main Road an nothing else), although I cannot put in Ondorhaan (which is identical to Wendover). There must be something else at work regarding the ability to put units in strategic mode.


The Chinese may be treated differently than other western powers...and as you found check for the presence of a port.

quote:



So the part about Allies being able to put units in strategic mode in bases that have Main Roads doesn't seem to match the manual at all.


Depends on the Allied power in question..

quote:


Meanwhile I can put my units in ports in strategic mode, whether there are railroads or main roads or not - I guess that I can do that in order to load them in boats. That seems reasonable and consistent.

Another question around that: I have a unit sitting on top of a major rail line, but not on a base. I can't put it in strategic mode; so they cannot embark a train unless they are in a train terminal?



Correct ...you can only enter Strategic Mode when in a friendly controlled base that does not also contain enemy units.



fbs -> RE: What in the world is Strategic OpMode in roads? (5/17/2010 7:48:46 PM)


Alright, thank you, treespider and LoBaron.



SuluSea -> RE: What in the world is Strategic OpMode in roads? (5/17/2010 8:43:57 PM)

Just a visual here's the road from Charters Towers to Normanton with a base force  moving by road .


[image]http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b11/Noopers/C2NRD.jpg[/image]




cantona2 -> RE: What in the world is Strategic OpMode in roads? (5/17/2010 9:14:57 PM)

Guess they move in trucks rather than by foot



treespider -> RE: What in the world is Strategic OpMode in roads? (5/17/2010 9:41:20 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: cantona2

Guess they move in trucks rather than by foot



Ding! We have a winner...



fbs -> RE: What in the world is Strategic OpMode in roads? (5/18/2010 1:18:58 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: SuluSea

Just a visual here's the road from Charters Towers to Normanton with a base force  moving by road .




I guess that's how things are, but I find it darn strange that the troops cannot embark on the trucks if they are in the road itself -- they need to walk on foot to a city, and then board the trucks there. Similarly, if they are in the railroad, they can't just board a train, but need to walk on foot to a city, and then buy the tickets and board the train.

Also it's still quite strange that there are no trucks in the USSR or in China... :-( ... but then again, that's how things are, I bet.



LoBaron -> RE: What in the world is Strategic OpMode in roads? (5/18/2010 7:29:20 AM)

They can embark on trucks. Thats why units are already quite fast when on a road in "move" formation. The have to be constantly combat ready though
in case they are get under attack. So this represents the typical slow military truck column that has to limit itself to the max speed of tanks, halftracks,
self propelled arty and trucks pulling heavy equipment with the occasional scout unit checking the road for mines or enemy ambush.

StratOp mode represents something else:

Rail: ok thats an easy one, the unit is embarked on civilian/freight trains and moved to another train station.

Road: this represents the availability of civilian or semi civilian road transport. It requires some logistic center to mount the troops and
movement can only be between such centers in territory where no enemy is sighted (civilian busses, trucks, the likes).
Contrary to move formation the whole unit (tanks, arty, heavy equipment) is loaded on trucks and moved along the road to the next logistic center.

The reason why Chinese, Japanese and russian troops in the pac theatre could not do this was because they lacked sufficient civilian transport.
The reason why it can only be done on movement between from base to base, and only when the rail/road connection is free of enemy troops, is because no sane commander would
strap his most powerful assets to civilian vehicles when there is even the remote possibility that he suddently has to use them in combat.

I hope the difference is clearer now. [:)]



Dili -> RE: What in the world is Strategic OpMode in roads? (5/18/2010 9:59:47 AM)

Shouldn't be better to link that to motorised support instead of a blunt hardcode to only one side?



LoBaron -> RE: What in the world is Strategic OpMode in roads? (5/18/2010 1:20:04 PM)

No I donīt think so.
Motorized support is unit specific and an integral part of the unit.

Strat OPMode movement on main roads represents transportation that is either non military or commercial road transport.
And this did not exist in China, SU or Japan in WWII. Industrialization in China and Japan was reduced to military
use on a near exclusive basis, and the SU had to use its near non-existent civilian road transport system against Germany.

IMO this has been abstracted perfectly to match the different industrialization levels of the respective countries.
Iīm not sure were the problem is. [;)]



fbs -> RE: What in the world is Strategic OpMode in roads? (5/18/2010 4:05:06 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: LoBaron

They can embark on trucks. Thats why units are already quite fast when on a road in "move" formation. The have to be constantly combat ready though
in case they are get under attack. So this represents the typical slow military truck column that has to limit itself to the max speed of tanks, halftracks,
self propelled arty and trucks pulling heavy equipment with the occasional scout unit checking the road for mines or enemy ambush.

StratOp mode represents something else:

Rail: ok thats an easy one, the unit is embarked on civilian/freight trains and moved to another train station.

Road: this represents the availability of civilian or semi civilian road transport. It requires some logistic center to mount the troops and
movement can only be between such centers in territory where no enemy is sighted (civilian busses, trucks, the likes).
Contrary to move formation the whole unit (tanks, arty, heavy equipment) is loaded on trucks and moved along the road to the next logistic center.

The reason why Chinese, Japanese and russian troops in the pac theatre could not do this was because they lacked sufficient civilian transport.
The reason why it can only be done on movement between from base to base, and only when the rail/road connection is free of enemy troops, is because no sane commander would
strap his most powerful assets to civilian vehicles when there is even the remote possibility that he suddently has to use them in combat.

I hope the difference is clearer now. [:)]



That makes sense. Thank you, LoBaron.

I wish it was written somewhere in the manual that road-based strategic movement is only for USA and Australia; one (like me) can read the paragraph in the manual, put some units in strategic mode in Burma (and he can if they are in a port) and try to move them through improved roads (like I tried).




cantona2 -> RE: What in the world is Strategic OpMode in roads? (5/18/2010 4:39:10 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: LoBaron


IMO this has been abstracted perfectly to match the different industrialization levels of the respective countries.
Iīm not sure were the problem is. [;)]




I agree totally. If this were War in Europe then things would have to be different.



LoBaron -> RE: What in the world is Strategic OpMode in roads? (5/18/2010 4:47:13 PM)

True. To simulate the European theatre the current land combat model would have to change in significant areas anyway.



SuluSea -> RE: What in the world is Strategic OpMode in roads? (5/18/2010 5:10:50 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: fbs


quote:

ORIGINAL: LoBaron

They can embark on trucks. Thats why units are already quite fast when on a road in "move" formation. The have to be constantly combat ready though
in case they are get under attack. So this represents the typical slow military truck column that has to limit itself to the max speed of tanks, halftracks,
self propelled arty and trucks pulling heavy equipment with the occasional scout unit checking the road for mines or enemy ambush.

StratOp mode represents something else:

Rail: ok thats an easy one, the unit is embarked on civilian/freight trains and moved to another train station.

Road: this represents the availability of civilian or semi civilian road transport. It requires some logistic center to mount the troops and
movement can only be between such centers in territory where no enemy is sighted (civilian busses, trucks, the likes).
Contrary to move formation the whole unit (tanks, arty, heavy equipment) is loaded on trucks and moved along the road to the next logistic center.

The reason why Chinese, Japanese and russian troops in the pac theatre could not do this was because they lacked sufficient civilian transport.
The reason why it can only be done on movement between from base to base, and only when the rail/road connection is free of enemy troops, is because no sane commander would
strap his most powerful assets to civilian vehicles when there is even the remote possibility that he suddently has to use them in combat.

I hope the difference is clearer now. [:)]



That makes sense. Thank you, LoBaron.

I wish it was written somewhere in the manual that road-based strategic movement is only for USA and Australia; one (like me) can read the paragraph in the manual, put some units in strategic mode in Burma (and he can if they are in a port) and try to move them through improved roads (like I tried).



FWIW, there are major roads for strategic use on Suva [although I'd rather march] and out of Imphal also in the DEI I believe.



Dili -> RE: What in the world is Strategic OpMode in roads? (5/18/2010 8:27:30 PM)

quote:

No I donīt think so.
Motorized support is unit specific and an integral part of the unit.

Strat OPMode movement on main roads represents transportation that is either non military or commercial road transport.
And this did not exist in China, SU or Japan in WWII. Industrialization in China and Japan was reduced to military
use on a near exclusive basis, and the SU had to use its near non-existent civilian road transport system against Germany.

IMO this has been abstracted perfectly to match the different industrialization levels of the respective countries.
Iīm not sure were the problem is.


So it is a map and an unit limitation? An US unit in China can't go in strategic mode then?



fbs -> RE: What in the world is Strategic OpMode in roads? (5/18/2010 8:37:49 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: SuluSea

FWIW, there are major roads for strategic use on Suva [although I'd rather march] and out of Imphal also in the DEI I believe.




Regarding Imphal, I think we can confirm that strategic movement work on roads on India (I checked that in Kohima), although I'm not sure the rationale for that, given that India was not particularly motorized during WW2. I can't test it in Burma, as all bases that have major roads in Burma also have railways, so I can't check if strategic movement is due to roads or railways.

Regarding Suva, that is a port, and one can put the units in strategic mode in any port, whether there are roads/railways or not. You tested that strategic mode works on roads in Suva?



cantona2 -> RE: What in the world is Strategic OpMode in roads? (5/18/2010 8:42:14 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: fbs


quote:

ORIGINAL: SuluSea

FWIW, there are major roads for strategic use on Suva [although I'd rather march] and out of Imphal also in the DEI I believe.




Regarding Imphal, I think we can confirm that strategic movement work on roads on India (I checked that in Kohima), although I'm not sure the rationale for that, given that India was not particularly motorized during WW2. I can't test it in Burma, as all bases that have major roads in Burma also have railways, so I can't check if strategic movement is due to roads or railways.

Regarding Suva, that is a port, and one can put the units in strategic mode in any port, whether there are roads/railways or not. You tested that strategic mode works on roads in Suva?


Yes Strat Move by Road in India works. India wasn't particualry motorized but the British Army fully was, though I don't know if this was true of the Indian Army too.



Dili -> RE: What in the world is Strategic OpMode in roads? (5/18/2010 8:45:27 PM)

quote:

British Army fully


I doubt about that, not even US was fully motorised. US Infantry Divisions had 1/3 of transport only.



cantona2 -> RE: What in the world is Strategic OpMode in roads? (5/18/2010 8:52:01 PM)

I think it was, at least the BEF was mostly if not all motorized when it landed in France. Ironic that it was encircled by a Wehrmacht largely on foot!



Rob Brennan UK -> RE: What in the world is Strategic OpMode in roads? (5/18/2010 9:31:17 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: cantona2

I think it was, at least the BEF was mostly if not all motorized when it landed in France. Ironic that it was encircled by a Wehrmacht largely on foot!



not when it left however [;)], Britain had to really ramp up all sorts of production to re equip the BEF and i seriously doubt it had much spare soft transport for the far east untill about 44 ?



bradfordkay -> RE: What in the world is Strategic OpMode in roads? (5/18/2010 10:06:56 PM)

"The reason why it can only be done on movement between from base to base, and only when the rail/road connection is free of enemy troops, is because no sane commander would
strap his most powerful assets to civilian vehicles when there is even the remote possibility that he suddently has to use them in combat. "

Of course, legend has it that the French did just that at the Battle of the Marne in WWI. The devil, of course, is in the details...



SuluSea -> RE: What in the world is Strategic OpMode in roads? (5/18/2010 10:45:29 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: fbs


Regarding Suva, that is a port, and one can put the units in strategic mode in any port, whether there are roads/railways or not. You tested that strategic mode works on roads in Suva?



Here's a stitched picture showing they'll move by road but I'd rather march to save time packing and unpacking since it's such a short distance.



[image]http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b11/Noopers/Suva.jpg[/image]



fbs -> RE: What in the world is Strategic OpMode in roads? (5/19/2010 12:51:13 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SuluSea


quote:

ORIGINAL: fbs


Regarding Suva, that is a port, and one can put the units in strategic mode in any port, whether there are roads/railways or not. You tested that strategic mode works on roads in Suva?



Here's a stitched picture showing they'll move by road but I'd rather march to save time packing and unpacking since it's such a short distance.




Ohhhhhhhhhhhh... RD+ = strategic movement on road.

Brilliant. I never noticed that.

Thank you!



Klahn -> RE: What in the world is Strategic OpMode in roads? (5/19/2010 12:57:51 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Dili

quote:

British Army fully


I doubt about that, not even US was fully motorised. US Infantry Divisions had 1/3 of transport only.


A 1941 US "foot" infantry division had a truck for every 8.3 men. I would say this was close to fully motorised. The US didn't use the term "motorised" to refer to an infantry division with vehicle transport. Pretty much all infantry had vehicle transport. In US usage, "motorised" meant an infantry division with an attached tank brigade.

TOE for US infantry division in 1941:

15,245 men
117 mortars
116 towed guns
1,834 trucks



Smeulders -> RE: What in the world is Strategic OpMode in roads? (5/19/2010 8:24:09 AM)

Whether or not an LCU can use strategic movement over roads is determined by their nationality, not the location. If I'm correct, the Chinese and Commonwealth units can not use strategic road movement.



Dili -> RE: What in the world is Strategic OpMode in roads? (5/19/2010 11:06:35 PM)

quote:

A 1941 US "foot" infantry division had a truck for every 8.3 men. I would say this was close to fully motorised.


Nopes. US Army for example tried motorization with 4th Division, but there were not enough resources -including to transport by sea- Commanders preferred to have a vehicle pool at corps level.



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