RE: Steam sale (Full Version)

All Forums >> [General] >> General Discussion



Message


LarryP -> RE: Steam sale (11/5/2010 2:11:16 PM)

Erik might stay neutral on this. [;)] That Steam Eula is a tricky worded one for sure. I hated Steam for years and was sure I got a virus through their servers about four years ago. Then I beefed up my security with a better firewall and anti virus program, and started buying their games that were on sale. Especially at Christmas time, boy do they have good prices! [X(]

However, now I am having another problem that I can't resolve with them. Their games files keep getting corrupted. No other files on my game partition have this problem, only in the Steam directory. And it's happening on my laptop as well as this desktop, so it's not something wrong with one machine. Until I find out what is causing this, I'm done with them. Yesterday I went through every game I have installed through Steam, and it had to replace hundreds of missing files! Both machines too. [:@] Here is the forum post, and no replies yet: Files missing or corrupted sometimes

Got off topic there. Sorry. [:-] [&o]




Anthropoid -> RE: Steam sale (11/5/2010 3:04:20 PM)

I really like these guys at Matrix. I feel the same way about the guys at Ageod and Paradox. And I bet you're right Larry, and I wouldn't blame him at all, though I would still love to know what these guys at the publishers that I respect really do think of Steam. But that right there tells me something.

Steam on the other hand, I don't feel any "people" on the other end of the network connection with that firm. It just feels like "staff" and "corporate policy" with lawyers and CEO-types upstream of that. Half-Life was definitely a good game. But I effectively cannot play it anymore, and the last time I tried to get Valve to help me with it, it was not helpful.

I'm not gonna give them another chance until I see clear signs they are different than when that happened, and I don't see that.




LarryP -> RE: Steam sale (11/5/2010 6:27:10 PM)

Since you like Paradox and Ageod, how about gog.com? Now those guys are supportive and their prices are superb. Excellent site for older games with NO DRM. [:)]




Jeffrey H. -> RE: Steam sale (11/5/2010 6:52:58 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Anthropoid

I'm a little concerned by these two sections of the EULA I have to agree to to install the Steam Client on this machine.

quote:

6. Limitation of Liability. VALVE, ITS SUPPLIERS AND DISTRIBUTORS SHALL NOT BE LIABLE IN ANY WAY FOR LOSS OR DAMAGE OF ANY KIND RESULTING FROM THE USE OF THE PROGRAM INCLUDING, BUT NOT LIMITED TO, LOSS OF GOODWILL, WORK STOPPAGE, COMPUTER FAILURE OR MALFUNCTION, OR ANY AND ALL OTHER COMMERCIAL DAMAGES OR LOSSES. ANY WARRANTY AGAINST INFRINGEMENT THAT MAY BE PROVIDED IN SECTION 2-312(3) OF THE UNIFORM COMMERCIAL CODE AND/OR IN ANY OTHER COMPARABLE STATE STATUTE IS EXPRESSLY DISCLAIMED. Valve CANNOT AND WILL NOT BE RESPONSIBLE FOR ANY SOFTWARE OR HARDWARE FAILURES OR ANY OTHER EVENT WHICH MAY RESULT IN A LOSS OF DATA OR DISRUPTION OF SERVICE. Some states/jurisdictions do not allow the exclusion or limitation of incidental or consequential damages, so the above limitations may not apply.

7. Equitable Remedies. You hereby agree that Valve would be irreparably damaged if the terms of this License Agreement were not specifically enforced, and therefore you agree that Valve shall be entitled to appropriate equitable remedies with respect to breaches of this License Agreement, in addition to such other remedies as Valve may otherwise have available to it under applicable laws. In the event any litigation is brought by either party in connection with this License Agreement, the prevailing party in such litigation shall be entitled to recover from the other party all the costs, attorneys' fees and other expenses incurred by such prevailing party in the litigation


So, some of you guys who are Steam users who already agreed to this, can you explain to me what that part about "ANY WARRANTY AGAINST INFRINGEMENT THAT MAY BE PROVIDED IN SECTION 2-312(3) OF THE UNIFORM COMMERCIAL CODE AND/OR IN ANY OTHER COMPARABLE STATE STATUTE IS EXPRESSLY DISCLAIMED" really means?


I assume you're baiting here, and that you do have an idea what this means and you want to make a point about it. Trouble is, I can't tell what your point is. I think your point is the EULA is hopelessly stacked against anyone who is not a lawyer and in the event of a conflict, you will lose. I think that's implicit and although most people don't think about it or care about at the time they agree to it, they understand it.

I would say that if you are trying to make a living, financially speaking, off the game in some way, other than simply playing it, then you'll find the EULA to be relevant.








Anthropoid -> RE: Steam sale (11/5/2010 7:17:13 PM)

I am all for intellectual property owners protecting their rights, and have nothing per se against EULAs. It is just that Steam's strikes me as being particularly heavy-handed. I did have the intuition that what it does overall is 'stack the odds' against the user in the event of a dispute, but beyond that, no I honestly did not know for sure what that stuff would mean legally.

Your point to me begs the question: if Valve/Steam are just doing what is reasonable and pragmatic, then why don't all EULAs look like theirs? In fact, why don't all distributors look like Steam?

There is a pretty clear underlying philosophy of the consumer-patron relationship in Steam/Valve's business model: we don't trust, and we don't like you. In fact, we don't respect you either. Just give us the money, and we'll give you the goods, as long as you play by our rules. As long as your expectations are 'normal' (from a distributive population standpoint) you'll like us just fine, but we reserve the right to NOT satisfy you at all. It is not our goal. Volume, and market penetration is our goal.

Let me contrast that with the ethos I pick up from say Matrix: sorry about this but, here is this serial key that we need you to use. Please believe me, we're gamers like you, but we're also business men and we are aware that there could be some cheaters amongst us. Our games are not for everyone, but we find that the guys and gals that like us, well, we like them a lot too. We're kind've a community of like-minded strategy and wargame enthusiasts. Some people seem to feel that hanging around in our forums is at least as much fun, if not more fun than actually playing our games [:)] You'll find that we charge a pretty high price for our games, but we also stand behind them, and we do everything in our power to insure you are happy as a customer and fellow gamer. We're certainly not a charitable organization . . . and beyond that, I don't think they are nearly as transparent in their goals to make lots of money; I like to imagine the Matrix folks doing pretty well fiscally and living a good life based on their hard work, for one thing because they strike me as nice folks, but for another because they make games that I enjoy and which don't involve DRM or tricky EULAs.

If one's goal really is to protect one's bottom line, then being more cagey and wiley with one's client's might, in fact, NOT be the best strategy.

Here is another interesting story about what a failure DRM proved to be with Spore, and how it indeed backfired, causing the game to suffer even worse piracy.

http://www.forbes.com/2008/09/12/spo...0912spore.html

quote:

How do you measure the failure of the copy protections that software companies place on their media products? In the case of Electronic Arts' highly-anticipated game "Spore," just count the pirates.

As of Thursday afternoon, "Spore" had been illegally downloaded on file-sharing networks using BitTorrent peer-to-peer transfer 171,402 times since Sept. 1, according to Big Champagne, a peer-to-peer research firm. That's hardly a record: a popular game often hits those kinds of six-figure piracy numbers, says Big Champagne Chief Executive Eric Garland.

But not usually so quickly. In just the 24-hour period between Wednesday and Thursday, illegal downloaders snagged more than 35,000 copies, and, as of Thursday evening, that rate of downloads was still accelerating. "The numbers are extraordinary," Garland says. "This is a very high level of torrent activity even for an immensely popular game title." . . .

"PC games are massively pirated because you can pirate them," says Brad Wardell, chief executive of Plymouth, Mich.-based gaming company Stardock. Wardell argues that the driver for piracy is user-friendliness--not price. Instead of digital locks, Stardock requires users to use unique serial numbers which it monitors, in conjunction with IP addresses.

"Our focus is on getting people who would buy our software to buy it," Wardell says, rather than trying to strong-arm people unlikely to pay for the products into become paying customers.



ADDIT: from a consumer psychology perspective, the fact that DRM seems to cause more harm than good to the maker's bottom line comes as no surprise to me

http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/n...sed-by-drm.ars


quote:

Musicload: 75% of customer service problems caused by DRM
By Ken Fisher | Last updated March 18, 2007 6:39 PM
Deutsche Telekom's Musicload, one of the largest online music stores in Europe, has come out strongly against DRM on account of its effects on the marketplace and its customers, according to German-language Heise Online.

Musicload said in a letter distributed last week that customers are having consistent problems with DRM, so much so that 3 out of 4 customer service calls are ultimately the result of the frustrations that come with DRM. In a business where the major music labels expect to be paid well for their source material, the costs of supporting DRM are borne entirely by the music retailers. If the labels' love affair with DRM is hurting the companies trying to make a go at selling music online, something is horribly wrong.




Jeffrey H. -> RE: Steam sale (11/5/2010 8:11:30 PM)

Aha....so you were baiting, as I suspected. It's ok with me though.

I tend to think that the EULAs are a reflection of and in many way a reaction to the business environment. I think Steam has a lot on their plate in terms of content pass though EULA requirements, a huge customer base and high volumes. Lots of money attracts all sorts of attention, good and bad.

Matrix OTOH has a relatively simple approach because it's dealing to a much more limited and focused customer base and the volumes are small in comparison.

But I do agree with you on the negative aspects of DRM and heavy handed EULA's. I tend to avoid buying anything on steam, and only have a few games that require steam, L4D and L4D2. I've had a great time with them and in particular L4D I hope to be able to play as long as I live. It does bother me that the plug can and probably will be pulled on me someday and I avoid steam for that reason.

I also avoid old games with invasive DRM. I just try to find something else to play. I haven't really ran into any roadblocks yet although I wish Silent Hunter was DRM free.

It's a little bit odd but in some sense I do think the pirates are performing a good service, in that someday I may need a pirated version just to have a version to play at all.





Anthropoid -> RE: Steam sale (11/5/2010 8:39:07 PM)

And the fact is: somebody who _REALLY_ wants to play Steam games but not pay, can easily do so. I understand Steam is cracked within days of a new game coming out. The question them becomes (a) how many of those who patronize Steam would do so even if they weren't so heavy handed; and (b) how many people like me and you, who tendency to avoid Steam is exacerbated by the heavy hand?

The issue of the "plug being pulled" is I think real for any digital download only game, and that applies to GOG, Gamersgate, Matrix, etc. (though obviously being able to install it on your HD and then not have to login again _is_ diferent than some Steam games). But because Gamersgate strikes me as "friendly" I guess 'losing my product' when/if the plug got pulled doesn't feel so negative as it would feel if I had to place myself in Steam's hands.




ilovestrategy -> RE: Steam sale (11/6/2010 6:27:16 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Anthropoid


The issue of the "plug being pulled" is I think real for any digital download only game, and that applies to GOG, Gamersgate, Matrix, etc. (though obviously being able to install it on your HD and then not have to login again _is_ diferent than some Steam games). But because Gamersgate strikes me as "friendly" I guess 'losing my product' when/if the plug got pulled doesn't feel so negative as it would feel if I had to place myself in Steam's hands.


I can't count the number of times I wanted to play a game and couldn't because I lost the CD to it. Rome total war, Ascendancy, Age of Rifles, Civ II(I had to buy that CD again), Birth of the Federation and I'm sure there is more.

Steam is no problem. No CD, no hassle. I want to play on my laptop? No problem, I just download whatever game I have in my library.

For me, losing a CD is no different than the plug getting pulled. And besides, Steam is HUGE. I can't see them pulling the plug.




Page: <<   < prev  2 3 4 5 [6]

Valid CSS!




Forum Software © ASPPlayground.NET Advanced Edition 2.4.5 ANSI
0.65625